Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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To be clear again for the readers, Pre-tribbers also believe that Jesus only "RETURNS" one more time
...(as I mentioned in a previous recent post).
Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9 (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 [and its parallel passage] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]).
No one here (that I am aware of) disagrees with this... that He will only "RETURN" once.
Even we Pre-tribbers believe this. = )
[not sure about "Abs"... coz he has a number of unique ideas
--"partial-rapture theory," multiple raptures, "Millennial Exclusion theory" for any member of "the Church which is His body" etc etc...]
...(as I mentioned in a previous recent post).
Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9 (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 [and its parallel passage] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]).
No one here (that I am aware of) disagrees with this... that He will only "RETURN" once.
Even we Pre-tribbers believe this. = )
[not sure about "Abs"... coz he has a number of unique ideas
--"partial-rapture theory," multiple raptures, "Millennial Exclusion theory" for any member of "the Church which is His body" etc etc...]
Yes. The PRE-trib [/pre-7-yr-Trib / pre-70th Wk / pre-DOTL / pre-"IN THE NIGHT [time-period]"] "SNATCH [G726 harpazo]" of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL believers of "this present age [singular]" caught up [TO the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*] at ONE SINGULAR point in time). Paull refers to this event in more than merely the ONE VERSE using this particular Greek word; but refers to it something like 8 or so times in his two Thessalonians epistles using a VARIETY of terms and phrases to speak of it.
It pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," ... NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints [see Job19:25-27; Dan12:13; and Jn11:24], not to Trib saints [see Rev20:4 among other passages], not to MK saints [most ppl grasp that MK saints [i.e. those born into/within/during the MK age] will exist on the earth well after the "Rapture" event will have occurred ]).
It pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," ... NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints [see Job19:25-27; Dan12:13; and Jn11:24], not to Trib saints [see Rev20:4 among other passages], not to MK saints [most ppl grasp that MK saints [i.e. those born into/within/during the MK age] will exist on the earth well after the "Rapture" event will have occurred
]).Revelation 5:9 (those wearing "stephanous / crowns" of gold) are saying, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." (and they are seen UP IN Heaven BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of those "7 years")
[note: Paul said he would be awarded a "stephanon / crown" "IN THAT DAY" and not to him only... Not the day of his "death" ]
[note: Paul said he would be awarded a "stephanon / crown" "IN THAT DAY" and not to him only... Not the day of his "death"
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"...for has drawn near [G1448; perfect indicative] the kingdom of the heavens"... means that it was present (in some measure) in His Person... see the following at BibleHub:
HELPS Word-studies
1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).
[bold and underline mine; https://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm ]
At some point during His earthly ministry it ceased being said... (but in the future tribulation period, per Matt24:14 / 26:13, "THIS gospel OF THE KINGDOM" will again be being preached... and that will include the fact that it will (at that future time) indeed be VERY NEAR [G1451]"... for He will be RETURNING (to the earth, to be present there again) at the end of the Trib yrs (the 7 Trib years being the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 addresses / covers)
HELPS Word-studies
1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).
[bold and underline mine; https://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm ]
At some point during His earthly ministry it ceased being said... (but in the future tribulation period, per Matt24:14 / 26:13, "THIS gospel OF THE KINGDOM" will again be being preached... and that will include the fact that it will (at that future time) indeed be VERY NEAR [G1451]"... for He will be RETURNING (to the earth, to be present there again) at the end of the Trib yrs (the 7 Trib years being the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 addresses / covers)
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Consider Gaebelein's commentary on Matthew 12 -
[quoting]
"The twelfth chapter [of Matthew] brings before us the full manifestation of the enmity of Israel against our Lord and His rejection by His own.
"It is the great turning point in this Gospel and with it the offer of our Lord to Israel as their King, as well as the offer of the Kingdom ceases. We have followed the story of our Lord manifesting Himself as Jehovah the King. Everything in the first part of this royal Gospel proves Him to be the promised One. Speaking not like the Pharisees and the Scribes, but with authority, He had declared the principles of the Kingdom He came to bring.
"Going through the cities of Galilee, He and His disciples had preached the Kingdom of the Heavens to be at hand. Multitudes had heard the glad and solemn announcement.
"These glad tidings were backed up by the most startling signs. The blind saw, the lepers were cleansed, demons were driven out and the dead were raised. There could be only one explanation for these miracles.
"Every one of them proved conclusively that Jehovah had visited His people; He whose name is “Immanuel” had appeared in their midst. Old Testament predictions of the coming of the Messiah, the manner of His coming and His works were being fulfilled before the eyes of that generation yet they did not and would not recognize Him. They remained cold and indifferent. They had no heart for Jehovah-Jesus. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy. And so we learn in the eighth chapter that a Gentile showed greater faith than the Lord had found in Israel and our Lord indicates the immediate future of the children of the Kingdom. They were to be cast out and others from the East and the West were to come and sit down in the Kingdom of the Heavens with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The murmuring of the Pharisees, first heard when he healed the paralytic and forgave him his sins, was the first outbreak against Him. And now the storm we saw in its threatening is to break. The awful blasphemy is uttered and the King declares in His sovereign power the relationship between Him the King and the Kingdom people broken. It is now clear that the Kingdom of the Heavens, so fully revealed in the Old Testament, is to be postponed till the Son of Man comes again. After this rejection of the King and His turning away from His own, He revealed the Kingdom of the Heavens in mysteries. [...]"
--Gaebelein, Matthew 12 Commentary - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/matthew/12.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
[quoting]
"The twelfth chapter [of Matthew] brings before us the full manifestation of the enmity of Israel against our Lord and His rejection by His own.
"It is the great turning point in this Gospel and with it the offer of our Lord to Israel as their King, as well as the offer of the Kingdom ceases. We have followed the story of our Lord manifesting Himself as Jehovah the King. Everything in the first part of this royal Gospel proves Him to be the promised One. Speaking not like the Pharisees and the Scribes, but with authority, He had declared the principles of the Kingdom He came to bring.
"Going through the cities of Galilee, He and His disciples had preached the Kingdom of the Heavens to be at hand. Multitudes had heard the glad and solemn announcement.
"These glad tidings were backed up by the most startling signs. The blind saw, the lepers were cleansed, demons were driven out and the dead were raised. There could be only one explanation for these miracles.
"Every one of them proved conclusively that Jehovah had visited His people; He whose name is “Immanuel” had appeared in their midst. Old Testament predictions of the coming of the Messiah, the manner of His coming and His works were being fulfilled before the eyes of that generation yet they did not and would not recognize Him. They remained cold and indifferent. They had no heart for Jehovah-Jesus. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy. And so we learn in the eighth chapter that a Gentile showed greater faith than the Lord had found in Israel and our Lord indicates the immediate future of the children of the Kingdom. They were to be cast out and others from the East and the West were to come and sit down in the Kingdom of the Heavens with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The murmuring of the Pharisees, first heard when he healed the paralytic and forgave him his sins, was the first outbreak against Him. And now the storm we saw in its threatening is to break. The awful blasphemy is uttered and the King declares in His sovereign power the relationship between Him the King and the Kingdom people broken. It is now clear that the Kingdom of the Heavens, so fully revealed in the Old Testament, is to be postponed till the Son of Man comes again. After this rejection of the King and His turning away from His own, He revealed the Kingdom of the Heavens in mysteries. [...]"
--Gaebelein, Matthew 12 Commentary - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/matthew/12.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
Yes, I’ll explain my theory that could be called both a partial and multiple rapture theory and include relevant scriptures. This interpretation involves the principle of ‘double fulfillment.’ This is applying one prophetic message to more than one situation. Some scholars agree while others disagree with this method of interpretation.
Perhaps Dwight Pentecost has stated the case in favor of the "double-sense" principle:
“Two events, widely separated as to the time of their fulfillment-may be brought together into the scope of prophecy.”
The author holds the B. A. degree from Cedarville College. and the Th. M. degree from Dallas Theological Seminary.
The following is a summary of what I see as two separate events. Each rapture is preceded by a harvest.
Glorification/Harvest(Connected to Rapture 1)
Harvest: Romans 8:14-15, Romans 8:30, Isaiah 60:1-3, Daniel 12:1-3
1st Rapture: Rev 12:5 is in conjunction with 1 Thess. 4:13-17.
What has been termed the “secret rapture” by opponents of the the traditional pre-tribulation rapture view is in fact the first rapture event of Rev 12:5. It is in conjunction with the 2nd rapture event of 1 Thess 4:13-17.
When: Within Daniel’s 70th week, pre-seal, pre-trumpet judgements (Rev. 12:5, 1 Thess 4:15-18).
Who: 1st group: Glorified remnant (Romans 8:14-15, Romans 8:30, Isaiah 60:1-3, Daniel 12:1-3). It is comprised of 24 elders of Revelation 12:5.
2nd group: Comprised of martyrs of Mystery Babylon. These are according to Rev. 8:9, “Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.” See also Rev. 17:1 and Rev. 17:6. This unfaithful group undergoes the persecution of Rev. 2:10. They have been faithless according to 2 Tim. 2:13 and do not rule as kings on the earth during the millennial reign. Rev. 20:5 says this group ‘did not live again until the thousand years were finished.’ They are ‘caught up to God and His throne’ according to Revelation 12:5, but endure further trials and do not receive the reward of glorification. “If anyone’s work is burned, he will ‘suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:12).”
(The martyrs of the beast are described in Rev. 20:4 do reign with the glorified remnant for 1,000 years. They are not part of this 1st rapture event in Rev. 12:5.)
Why: Once the Lamb has taken the scroll, He will begin to exercise His right to judge (Rev 4:5). Someone must take His place before the altar of incense, offering prayers on behalf of the saints. This is the role of the glorified remnant who obtain the inheritance (Romans 8:14, Romans 8:30, Rev. 12:5). This faithful remnant has been obedient to the Spirit of God according to 2 Tim. 11-12. They caught up to ‘God and His throne’ in Rev. 12:5.
————————————————————-
Harvest (Connected to Rapture 2)
Harvest: Rev. 14:14-16
2nd Rapture: I have 1 Thess. 4:15-17, 2 Thess 2:1-4, Matthew 24:40-44, and 1 Thess 5:1-10 supporting this event. It is in conjunction with the first rapture event of Rev. 12:5 and 1 Thess 4:15-17.
When: It occurs after the great tribulation and about the time of the 6th seal. This is right before the wrath of God begins.
Who: The 144,000 sealed of Israel who come to Christ during the great tribulation make up this harvest. They are those who are alive and remain (after great tribulation) in 1 Thess 4:15-17.
They meet the resurrected saints (resurrected OT saints, martyrs of Mystery Babylon, and glorified remnant (caught up in first pre-seal, pre-trumpet rapture in the clouds (Rev. 12:5, 1 Thess. 4:15-17). This event possibly occurs in Matthew 24:31. I know this is also a reference to the final appearing/second coming. I’m going to read more to form a view on whether or not it qualifies for a rapture event.
The final appearing of the Lord also is mentioned in Rev. 19:11-16 at the conclusion of Daniel’s 70th week.
The martyrs of the beast who get their resurrected bodies at the 7th trumpet could be included in this rapture. They will be kings and priests during the millennial reign, and it has also been theorized by Brenda Weltner they have their own rapture event.
Why: The second rapture event is for the overcomer saints. These are kept from the ‘hour of trial’ in Rev. 2:10. It occurs at a day and hour no one knows according to Matt. 24:36. This hour of trial they are kept from is the DOL that begins after the great tribulation.
I hope this will be somewhat useful to you brother. I understand why advocates of the other rapture theories only see one rapture event. It seems unlikely to me based on my understanding of Revelation.
I’ve only come to this study of eschatology in the past five years. I have relied on some of the teachings of our sister Brenda Weltner. Although I disagree with some of the date setting she has engaged in, I think her method of interpreting Revelation is sound.
She writes, “The woman of Rev. 12 is described as being in ‘travail.’ In the OT the travail of childbirth is often a metaphor for war or conflict.”
I think it is reasonable to say there will be a war, conflict or invasion in Israel before believers are glorified and caught up with the man-child represented by Jesus in Rev. 12:5. Israel has been striking in/around Damascus multiple times in 2021. Israel and Iran have also conducted multiple war drills this past year.
Perhaps Dwight Pentecost has stated the case in favor of the "double-sense" principle:
“Two events, widely separated as to the time of their fulfillment-may be brought together into the scope of prophecy.”
The author holds the B. A. degree from Cedarville College. and the Th. M. degree from Dallas Theological Seminary.
The following is a summary of what I see as two separate events. Each rapture is preceded by a harvest.
Glorification/Harvest(Connected to Rapture 1)
Harvest: Romans 8:14-15, Romans 8:30, Isaiah 60:1-3, Daniel 12:1-3
1st Rapture: Rev 12:5 is in conjunction with 1 Thess. 4:13-17.
What has been termed the “secret rapture” by opponents of the the traditional pre-tribulation rapture view is in fact the first rapture event of Rev 12:5. It is in conjunction with the 2nd rapture event of 1 Thess 4:13-17.
When: Within Daniel’s 70th week, pre-seal, pre-trumpet judgements (Rev. 12:5, 1 Thess 4:15-18).
Who: 1st group: Glorified remnant (Romans 8:14-15, Romans 8:30, Isaiah 60:1-3, Daniel 12:1-3). It is comprised of 24 elders of Revelation 12:5.
2nd group: Comprised of martyrs of Mystery Babylon. These are according to Rev. 8:9, “Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.” See also Rev. 17:1 and Rev. 17:6. This unfaithful group undergoes the persecution of Rev. 2:10. They have been faithless according to 2 Tim. 2:13 and do not rule as kings on the earth during the millennial reign. Rev. 20:5 says this group ‘did not live again until the thousand years were finished.’ They are ‘caught up to God and His throne’ according to Revelation 12:5, but endure further trials and do not receive the reward of glorification. “If anyone’s work is burned, he will ‘suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:12).”
(The martyrs of the beast are described in Rev. 20:4 do reign with the glorified remnant for 1,000 years. They are not part of this 1st rapture event in Rev. 12:5.)
Why: Once the Lamb has taken the scroll, He will begin to exercise His right to judge (Rev 4:5). Someone must take His place before the altar of incense, offering prayers on behalf of the saints. This is the role of the glorified remnant who obtain the inheritance (Romans 8:14, Romans 8:30, Rev. 12:5). This faithful remnant has been obedient to the Spirit of God according to 2 Tim. 11-12. They caught up to ‘God and His throne’ in Rev. 12:5.
————————————————————-
Harvest (Connected to Rapture 2)
Harvest: Rev. 14:14-16
2nd Rapture: I have 1 Thess. 4:15-17, 2 Thess 2:1-4, Matthew 24:40-44, and 1 Thess 5:1-10 supporting this event. It is in conjunction with the first rapture event of Rev. 12:5 and 1 Thess 4:15-17.
When: It occurs after the great tribulation and about the time of the 6th seal. This is right before the wrath of God begins.
Who: The 144,000 sealed of Israel who come to Christ during the great tribulation make up this harvest. They are those who are alive and remain (after great tribulation) in 1 Thess 4:15-17.
They meet the resurrected saints (resurrected OT saints, martyrs of Mystery Babylon, and glorified remnant (caught up in first pre-seal, pre-trumpet rapture in the clouds (Rev. 12:5, 1 Thess. 4:15-17). This event possibly occurs in Matthew 24:31. I know this is also a reference to the final appearing/second coming. I’m going to read more to form a view on whether or not it qualifies for a rapture event.
The final appearing of the Lord also is mentioned in Rev. 19:11-16 at the conclusion of Daniel’s 70th week.
The martyrs of the beast who get their resurrected bodies at the 7th trumpet could be included in this rapture. They will be kings and priests during the millennial reign, and it has also been theorized by Brenda Weltner they have their own rapture event.
Why: The second rapture event is for the overcomer saints. These are kept from the ‘hour of trial’ in Rev. 2:10. It occurs at a day and hour no one knows according to Matt. 24:36. This hour of trial they are kept from is the DOL that begins after the great tribulation.
I hope this will be somewhat useful to you brother. I understand why advocates of the other rapture theories only see one rapture event. It seems unlikely to me based on my understanding of Revelation.
I’ve only come to this study of eschatology in the past five years. I have relied on some of the teachings of our sister Brenda Weltner. Although I disagree with some of the date setting she has engaged in, I think her method of interpreting Revelation is sound.
She writes, “The woman of Rev. 12 is described as being in ‘travail.’ In the OT the travail of childbirth is often a metaphor for war or conflict.”
I think it is reasonable to say there will be a war, conflict or invasion in Israel before believers are glorified and caught up with the man-child represented by Jesus in Rev. 12:5. Israel has been striking in/around Damascus multiple times in 2021. Israel and Iran have also conducted multiple war drills this past year.
To be clear again for the readers, Pre-tribbers also believe that Jesus only "RETURNS" one more time
...(as I mentioned in a previous recent post).
Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9 (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 [and its parallel passage] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]).
No one here (that I am aware of) disagrees with this... that He will only "RETURN" once.
Even we Pre-tribbers believe this. = )
[not sure about "Abs"... coz he has a number of unique ideas --"partial-rapture theory," multiple raptures, "Millennial Exclusion theory" for any member of "the Church which is His body" etc etc...]
...(as I mentioned in a previous recent post).
Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9 (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 [and its parallel passage] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]).
No one here (that I am aware of) disagrees with this... that He will only "RETURN" once.
Even we Pre-tribbers believe this. = )
[not sure about "Abs"... coz he has a number of unique ideas
--"partial-rapture theory," multiple raptures, "Millennial Exclusion theory" for any member of "the Church which is His body" etc etc...]
But yes he "returns" once.
( rev 14 is neither the main rapture of 1thes4 or the coming on horses)
Read your post
You are JUSTIFYING your camp via demonizing believers.
My stand is 100% bible.
Your camp INTRODUCES EXTRA BIBLICAL
Darby
McDonald
.....and a host of rabbit trails
My Pushback ON YOUR MESS is to show you YOUR CAMPS corrupt origin.
That is THE ORIGIN of postrib rapture.
Now....your camps claim, which you recklessly parrot HAS BEEN DEBUNKED.
There are writings dating back 300 ad pointing to pretrib rapture.
So before you join David tree in saying myself and others sit in satans lap and take in every word of the devil, get yourself a mirror and ask that person what spirit you are of.
AHEM ....Both of you call the brethren demonic.
No doubt the mods would ban both of you.
You are JUSTIFYING your camp via demonizing believers.
My stand is 100% bible.
Your camp INTRODUCES EXTRA BIBLICAL
Darby
McDonald
.....and a host of rabbit trails
My Pushback ON YOUR MESS is to show you YOUR CAMPS corrupt origin.
That is THE ORIGIN of postrib rapture.
Now....your camps claim, which you recklessly parrot HAS BEEN DEBUNKED.
There are writings dating back 300 ad pointing to pretrib rapture.
So before you join David tree in saying myself and others sit in satans lap and take in every word of the devil, get yourself a mirror and ask that person what spirit you are of.
AHEM ....Both of you call the brethren demonic.
No doubt the mods would ban both of you.
Where does the Bible tell us a secret Coming kicks off Tribulation?
If I ever read what you said, I would believe. But since those words are nowhere but created by a Heretic 200 years ago...you do realize this pre-trib Doctrine is only 200 years old...meaning, Jesus did not teach it, the Apostles did not teach it, the Church Fathers did not teach it, but a Woman in Scotland had a Dream and John Darby made that Dream into a False Doctrine?
You think a 200 year old Doctrine is legit and Biblical?
If I ever read what you said, I would believe. But since those words are nowhere but created by a Heretic 200 years ago...you do realize this pre-trib Doctrine is only 200 years old...meaning, Jesus did not teach it, the Apostles did not teach it, the Church Fathers did not teach it, but a Woman in Scotland had a Dream and John Darby made that Dream into a False Doctrine?
You think a 200 year old Doctrine is legit and Biblical?
Since you laid the bible aside you think you have some imaginary high ground.
You guys do this every single time.
You get routed badly
Then pull the darby card (desperation)
Then go personal
Then ice the cake with accusing us of listening to the devil.
You camp is so anemic and predictable.
It comes to this every debate.
Your camp goes to extra biblical damage control.
Do you see what he is doing?
He is bouncing a string of generalzed " you go prove a negative"..."you are wrong", bunch of "safe" nothingburger posts off of us.
He is some kid on here just to troll.
Hates pretribbers.
He has basically nothing.
Just "knows" he is anti pretrib rapture.
He is bouncing a string of generalzed " you go prove a negative"..."you are wrong", bunch of "safe" nothingburger posts off of us.
He is some kid on here just to troll.
Hates pretribbers.
He has basically nothing.
Just "knows" he is anti pretrib rapture.
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