Jesus is God

[ThewindBlows]

Amen! Time to move on from "bad works" to "gold, silver, and precious
stones," eh? And:

Discussing the deity of Jesus to people that don't understand is never "bad works", What do you consider your gold, silver and precious stones, like pushing justification through works while calling yourself Grace ambassador......And its not a dead horse when every person that lives has to come to that exact point before they die, Asking who do you say Jesus is a foundation Jesus set

 

[Bigtpepper]

Thank you, hope to enjoy many deep discussions.

 

[RizenPhoenix]

This has been covered already, there is another at least one thread called 'Christ is God', but I think there is too much lowering of Jesus' status in these forums at the moment.

When the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus, it was for blasphemy. Jesus was making Himself equal with God. So.. that does not mean that He *wasn't* God. It means He is equal. Jesus is distinct from the Father.. but not inferior. Inferiority.. and you are getting into Polytheism.

Jesus also says to them 'before Abraham was, I AM'... that is a clear reference to God talking to Moses at the burning bush. He is again making Himself equal with God.. and saying those words from God are His words. He is identifying Himself with Yahweh.. the national God of Israel... and beyond that.

Jesus saying 'The Father is greater than I'

With this verse, in the passage He ascends to be one with the Father later, after saying it.

If I say.. the president is greater than I.. is he an ontologically superior being?

No.. he is not. He is a flawed human being like I am, but he is in a greater position.

In Revelation.. this is Jesus' words to the churches.. it also the Holy Spirit's word to the churches.. and then Jesus is referred to with 'Alpha and Omega' terms.. which is used for the Father.

You can't avoid this! Jesus DID claim, indirectly to be God!

Then there is also the Jewish concept of agency.. the messager taking an originators message.. the agent becomes equal to the messenger. So when Jesus says 'by the hand of the Father'.. 'and I and the Father are one'.. things like that... to the Jews... that is saying 'I am God'.. His words are equal to the Fathers.

It goes on and on.. such as 'all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily'

And also that Jesus accepted worship of Himself.

'Son' meaning 'image' 'expression' 'manifestation' of God.. not 'inferior, born out of'

If anyone is going to claim Jesus is not God.. equal to the Father.. that is not christianity. It's something else.

This problem began when the Council of Nicaea/Laodicea and Trent took the holy name of God (YHWH) out of the Bible. You can't tell which GOD/God/LORD/Lord is being referenced. I feel so sorry that humans have to be so confused. Jesus is not God! He is the SON of God. They are two separate Spirit Beings with total different powers/purpose. God was not created, Jesus was created. He clearly tells you he (Jesus) was BESIDE his Father as a Master Worker. Prov 8:30-31 Jesus died--God cannot die. Who really would think God, would come out of a Woman's Womb? The Heaven cannot contain God so tell me how the Earth would 2 Chronicles 2:6. Eyes will NOT see and Ears will NOT hear. Ask God to open your 3rd Eye or brain. Rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus!

 

[RizenPhoenix]

This has been covered already, there is another at least one thread called 'Christ is God', but I think there is too much lowering of Jesus' status in these forums at the moment.

When the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus, it was for blasphemy. Jesus was making Himself equal with God. So.. that does not mean that He *wasn't* God. It means He is equal. Jesus is distinct from the Father.. but not inferior. Inferiority.. and you are getting into Polytheism.

Jesus also says to them 'before Abraham was, I AM'... that is a clear reference to God talking to Moses at the burning bush. He is again making Himself equal with God.. and saying those words from God are His words. He is identifying Himself with Yahweh.. the national God of Israel... and beyond that.

Jesus saying 'The Father is greater than I'

With this verse, in the passage He ascends to be one with the Father later, after saying it.

If I say.. the president is greater than I.. is he an ontologically superior being?

No.. he is not. He is a flawed human being like I am, but he is in a greater position.

In Revelation.. this is Jesus' words to the churches.. it also the Holy Spirit's word to the churches.. and then Jesus is referred to with 'Alpha and Omega' terms.. which is used for the Father.

You can't avoid this! Jesus DID claim, indirectly to be God!

Then there is also the Jewish concept of agency.. the messager taking an originators message.. the agent becomes equal to the messenger. So when Jesus says 'by the hand of the Father'.. 'and I and the Father are one'.. things like that... to the Jews... that is saying 'I am God'.. His words are equal to the Fathers.

It goes on and on.. such as 'all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily'

And also that Jesus accepted worship of Himself.

'Son' meaning 'image' 'expression' 'manifestation' of God.. not 'inferior, born out of'

If anyone is going to claim Jesus is not God.. equal to the Father.. that is not christianity. It's something else.

This problem began when the Council of Nicaea/Laodicea and Trent took the holy name of God (YHWH) out of the Bible. You can't tell which GOD/God/LORD/Lord is being referenced. I feel so sorry that humans have to be so confused. Jesus is not God! He is the SON of God. They are two separate Spirit Beings with total different powers/purpose. God was not created, Jesus was created. He clearly tells you he (Jesus) was BESIDE his Father as a Master Worker. Prov 8:30-31 Jesus died--God cannot die. Who really would think God, would come out of a Woman's Womb? The Heaven cannot contain God so tell me how the Earth would 2 Chronicles 2:6. Eyes will NOT see and Ears will NOT hear. Ask God to open your 3rd Eye or brain. Rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus!

 

[wattie]

This problem began when the Council of Nicaea/Laodicea and Trent took the holy name of God (YHWH) out of the Bible. You can't tell which GOD/God/LORD/Lord is being referenced. I feel so sorry that humans have to be so confused. Jesus is not God! He is the SON of God. They are two separate Spirit Beings with total different powers/purpose. God was not created, Jesus was created. He clearly tells you he (Jesus) was BESIDE his Father as a Master Worker. Prov 8:30-31 Jesus died--God cannot die. Who really would think God, would come out of a Woman's Womb? The Heaven cannot contain God so tell me how the Earth would 2 Chronicles 2:6. Eyes will NOT see and Ears will NOT hear. Ask God to open your 3rd Eye or brain. Rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus!

Interesting...

3rd eye? Well that's New Age stuff.. so that's a funny thing to mention.

You mention humans being confused.. you must be also a human? And also then confused?

Jesus created?

He was in the beginning with God as the Word and all thing were created thru Him according to scripture. If He was their in the beginning.. the bible makes no mention of any being there in the beginning that was actually created as far as I know.

Son of God-- as I posted before .. does not have the same meaning as a human being having a child. Son is like 'image' 'expression'.. that is how the bible defines Jesus.

The meaning of Son of God is more like 'unique heir' according to scripture context.

Jesus didn't end up dead. He even..straight after dieing on the cross.. descended into the lower parts of the earth and set captives free.. who were dead... who were then seen alive later.. resurrected.

He in now ascended to heaven.. one with the Father!

But I am going on ....

Obviously scripture is not your authority.. Rizenphoenix.

If you really want to study the diety of Christ.. it isn't in looking at thing through natural man's eyes. Of course a woman doesn't give birth to God in men's eyes! Of course someone doesn't rise from the dead in men's eyes.

But what actually happened? Jesus was born of a virgin

He did really get crucified. It's confirmed by people who didn't even believe He was God. The Jewish officials never argued he wasn't crucified.. only that His body was stolen.

The evidence that he got crucified.. is just as strong that He was seen alive.. in a resurrected body.. afterwards. The witnesses to that attest to it through the apostles testimony. They died for believing He was risen.. when there were people around them who could have easily said they were dieing for a myth... but that isn't what happened.

Anyway, I was a New Ager. I know what it is like to look at things through natural, but spiritually confused lenses. Maybe you believe in one God.. and Jesus isn't it.. but there is no other diety.. not other supposed 'god' who has done anything about men's fallen state.

Only Jesus Has. The Son of God.. with the Father and Holy Spirit as the one Triune God. All equally God. Not 3 Gods. Not seperate beings. The same essence and substance.

End of story.

 

[wattie]

Oh.. also.. rebuking Satan in the name of Jesus?

How can you do that if Jesus isn't God. How does Jesus' name hold power over Satan if He isn't God?

Maybe you see Him as a 'lesser god'? Well.. Satan wouldn't have a problem with that.. and would probably actually have that kind of being as his fellow worker!

Rizenphoenix.. think about scripture context.. don't take little bits out and proclaim things that are foreign to the passages they sit in!

Over.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

The translators didn't have to translate it as "I am". They could have chose "Before Abraham was, I exist..." Bias can effect the way something is translated. I think it's quite evident in the KJV.

I've thought similarly.

 

[Bigtpepper]

God gave David a promise - "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:" 2 Samuel 7:12-14 KJV

According to this promise it would seem that Yeshua would be capable of going the other way, like the first Adam. Otherwise He would not have said, "If he commits iniquity (lawlessness) I will chasten him with the rod of men.
Yeshua's garden experience reveals that he was a man who did not want to face death because he prayed not only once, but three times the same prayer - if it possible let this cup pass from me. Matthew 26:39 "And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matthew 26:44 KJV "Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me." Matthew 26:38 KJV
My brother, like any man did not want to die, yet he surrendered his will to the Father and excepted his fate. Personally, there isn't enough emphasis on his grarden experience, if there hadn't been a complete surrendering of his will in the garden there would not have been a cross.
He was the last Adam, meaning he had the same capabilities of committing iniquity as the first Adam. If not the scriptures in 2 Samuel chapter seven are a lie.

 

[Bigtpepper]

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Numbers 24:19
"For since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:21-28

 

[wattie]

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Numbers 24:19
"For since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:21-28

Well thank you for posting.

Have a read of the verses The Learner posted up. There are many. They show Jesus to be fully God.

You would know the Jewish concept of agency.

Jesus did things 'by the hand of the Father' and said 'I and the Father are one' and 'I am in the Father and the Father in me'

If 'an agent is as the man himself' ... what do these quotes from Jesus say about Him?

That's equality with the Father, my friend!


As to the old Testament saying God is not a man, nor son of man.... well Jesus wasn't in the form of man in the OT.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

With all due respect, discussing the deity of Yeshua or Jesus is like beating a dead horse.

Amen! Time to move on from "bad works" to "gold, silver, and precious
stones," eh?

Discussing the deity of Jesus to people that don't understand is never "bad works"

I apologize since there needs to be some Scriptural Clarification - ie:

1) Yes, "good works of gold" is discussing The Deity Of Christ, but, only up to
a Certain Point, with "The Truth, In LOVE!":

a) Tit_3:10 "A man that is an heretick after the first and​

second admonition reject;"​

b) Rom 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which​

cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye​

have learned; and avoid them."​

2) Continuing past this point is Disobedience To God, and is "bad works,"
Correct? @Bigtpepper 's "dead horse" then would be the useless "bashing
the unrepentant over the head" with your Bible, would it not?:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome​

words, even The Words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the​

doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing​

nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words,​

whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse ​

disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,​

supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."​

3) I believe the "good works" of silver would be "preaching The Gospel
of The GRACE Of God" (His "Justification apart from all works"), and
then:

4) Lastly, the "sound doctrines" of Paul In Romans Through Philemon,
obeying (and teaching New babes In Christ) "all the Commands Of Christ"
found Therein, would be the "good works" of precious stones.

Amen?
------------------------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[Bigtpepper]

Well thank you for posting.

Have a read of the verses The Learner posted up. There are many. They show Jesus to be fully God.

You would know the Jewish concept of agency.

Jesus did things 'by the hand of the Father' and said 'I and the Father are one' and 'I am in the Father and the Father in me'

If 'an agent is as the man himself' ... what do these quotes from Jesus say about Him?

That's equality with the Father, my friend!


As to the old Testament saying God is not a man, nor son of man.... well Jesus wasn't in the form of man in the OT.

If he was the first born of many brethren, then I by the renewing of the Holy Ghost can say the same as my elder brother Yeshua. The Father and I are also one, the Father is also in me and I in him or else I am not one of His. That was Yeshua's message to the disciples, Father make them one with you even as I am one with you. He was not saying make them one with one another but one with the Father. For two thousand years more or less the same doctrines have been believed and preached, just look where it has gotten us today. What has changed - nothing. The so called church is worse off then what it was in the beginning.
Yeshua being of the son of David was trying to bring us into a place where we could be elevated to the dame plane as he was, to be equal with God and that means to be equal in our expression where it is no longer I but the anointing in mee that elevates us to a place of rest. I'm afraid the end of the gentile age is over and the wild olive branch is about to be broken off and the natural grafted back in.

 

[dlw]

1 Timothy 3:18
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3:16&version=KJV

 

[wattie]

If he was the first born of many brethren, then I by the renewing of the Holy Ghost can say the same as my elder brother Yeshua. The Father and I are also one, the Father is also in me and I in him or else I am not one of His. That was Yeshua's message to the disciples, Father make them one with you even as I am one with you. He was not saying make them one with one another but one with the Father. For two thousand years more or less the same doctrines have been believed and preached, just look where it has gotten us today. What has changed - nothing. The so called church is worse off then what it was in the beginning.
Yeshua being of the son of David was trying to bring us into a place where we could be elevated to the dame plane as he was, to be equal with God and that means to be equal in our expression where it is no longer I but the anointing in mee that elevates us to a place of rest. I'm afraid the end of the gentile age is over and the wild olive branch is about to be broken off and the natural grafted back in.

Mortal men.. cannot be equal with God. Even when believers die and go to heaven.. we won't be equal with Him. We will be without sin.. but not at His level. He will be the Head of the New Jerusalem.. and we His children.. but not the same. Not the same essence/substance.

A place in heaven is not attained... it can't be. There is nothing redemptive about just being human. A place in heaven is given by Jesus, unearned, umerited.. not worked for. A free gift. See John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24 and Romans 10 plus many other verses. A believer can never be sinless.. only at death when they go to heaven to be with Jesus.

 

[wattie]

1 Timothy 3:18
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3:16&version=KJV

Amen, thank you

 

[wattie]

I've thought similarly.

If Jesus pre-existed before Abraham.. and Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day, then Jesus is putting Himself on equal footing with God the Father. Jesus saying 'I AM' .. the context around it makes Him fully God anyway.

What pre-existing being in the OT that is with the Father.. isn't fully God? I don't see any. The Holy Spirit is obviously fully God.. since it's God's Spirit. The Father--- well who in their right mind would say the Father isn't God? And then all things were created thru Jesus and by Jesus.. and all thing consist through Jesus.

How can a being like that.. not be fully God?

* Around before Abraham
* All things created through Him
* In the beginning with the Father
* In Him all things consist

That isn't describing a lesser being than the Father.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

This problem began when the Council of Nicaea/Laodicea and Trent took the holy name of God (YHWH) out of the Bible. You can't tell which GOD/God/LORD/Lord is being referenced. I feel so sorry that humans have to be so confused. Jesus is not God! He is the SON of God.

Please see this verse which explains what Jesus Christ being the Son of God means. It means He is equal to His Father:

John 5:18b: "he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

So here it clearly says that Jesus Christ was declaring Himself equal with God.

Mat 2:11: "On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh."

See how the Magi worship Baby Jesus. They know the Child before them is Almighty God Himself, not a mere creature.

Phil 2:6 "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"

Another verse declaring that Jesus is equal to God. Nicea got this right and virtually all Christian denominations agree.

In Christ,
Xavier.

 

[TheLearner]

Verse?

John 8
John 10

 

[TheLearner]

the next verse says the Son has a God:

Hebrews 1:9
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

two gods?

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Hebrews 1 is perhaps the clearest declaration (I know, with so many great passages, it's hard to single one out! but still) of Christ's Divinity in Scripture - or at least the clearest refutation of the JW view that He is an Angel. Heb 1 clearly says Hes' not:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

(1) All the Angels of God are commanded to Worship Jesus Christ. Therefore, (a) Jesus Christ is God (b) He is not an Angel.

This refutes the JW opinion, which is also that of Jews and Muslims, who agree with them in denying the Divinity of Christ.