Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Last]

The article says, I quote:

"...little is heard about the quantities of wine sold-off in bulk due to failed wild yeast fermentations."

"...But there are situations when even devoted followers of wild yeast would opt for an inoculated fermentation. Rain at harvest washes off the native yeast, reducing their populations."

Either yeast or bacteria will ferment a drink.

 

[Last]

Ive heard this throughout the thread--that there was no grape juice until Welch's...But as SOON AS you squeeze the grapes, even back on those times, the product comes out as pure grape juice, no? It doesn't get squeezed out as wine, lol.

If you kept up with the topic, you'd know we already went over this. For a very brief period following harvest grape juice would have existed.

Grape juice would not have existed at the time of the last supper.

 

[Last]

"In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today.

Unless the person you are quoting (and not crediting) is talking about Mad Dog or some fortified wines, the wine today is the same as the wine in the past. The only difference is better control of the yeast and other microbes in the fermentation.

 

[Last]

I'm sorry I don't understand. Once they squeeze the grapes, they could drink the juice. Does it need to go to plant first to get processed in order for it to be consumed?

This kind of comment makes me want to bang my head against a wall.

The ancient world is not like the world today where grapes are available all year. Grapes were harvested in the fall. When they were ready, they all were ready.

 

[Last]

The comment is in the picture from the page of the book. oinos is a word that was used for both fermented and non fermented wine in ancient history.

There was no such thing as unfermented wine. Welch invented that.

 

[Jason0047]

There was no such thing as unfermented wine. Welch invented that.

Well, in order for this assertion to be true for someone, they would have to ignore history. It is true that grape juice from a grape is naturally fermenting, but it doesn't mean freshly squeezed juice is fully fermented and intoxicating. Also, they did make and preserve grape juice before Dr Welch.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

This kind of comment makes me want to bang my head against a wall.

The ancient world is not like the world today where grapes are available all year. Grapes were harvested in the fall. When they were ready, they all were ready.

They had ways of preserving fruits and vegetables. 1st Century historiean Flavius Josephus records in his Antiquities of the Jews:

4. As for the furniture that was within this fortress, it was still more wonderful on account of its splendor and long continuance; for here was laid up corn in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of pulse and dates heaped up together; all which Eleazar found there, when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and full ripe, and no way inferior to such fruits newly laid in, although they were little short of a hundred years[SUP]Wars-7-13[/SUP]from the laying in these provisions [by Herod], till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not corrupted all that while; nor should we be mistaken, if we supposed that the air was here the cause of their enduring so long; this fortress being so high, and so free from the mixture of all terrain and muddy particles of matter. There was also found here a large quantity of all sorts ofweapons of war, which had been treasured up by that king, and were sufficient for ten thousand men; there was east iron, and brass, and tin, which show that he had taken much pains to have all things here ready for the greatest occasions; for the report goes how Herod thus prepared this fortress on his own account, as a refuge against two kinds of danger; the one for fear of the multitude of the Jews, lest they should depose him, and restore their former kings to the government; the other danger was greater and more terrible, which arose from Cleopatra queen of Egypt, who did not conceal her intentions, but spoke often to Antony, and desired him to cut off Herod, and entreated him to bestow the kingdom of Judea upon her. And certainly it is a great wonder that Antony did never comply with her commands in this point, as he was so miserably enslaved to his passion for her; nor should any one have been surprised if she had been gratified in such her request. So the fear of these dangers made Herod rebuild Masada, and thereby leave it for the finishing stroke of the Romans in this Jewish war.


Wars-7-13. Pliny and others confirm this strange paradox, that provisions laid up against sieges will continue good for a hundred years, as Spanheim notes upon this place.


​

The Works of Josephus; Quickverse 2010.

Since thy had methods to preserve fruits and vegetables for nearly one hundred years, I am quite content in believing that grapes were readily available at such times that they were needed for squeezing fresh unfermented wine into one's cup.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

There was no such thing as unfermented wine. Welch invented that.

You ain't convincing me. Too much information is available to prove otherwise.

 

[Last]

You ain't convincing me. Too much information is available to prove otherwise.

There is no information to the contrary. This is stuff kids learn in school.

 

[Jason0047]

The reason why some folks are deceived is that they believe wine websites or wine makers that say grape juice is turned into wine. They are a product of their modern day culture. This is what the word "wine" means today. As I said before, the word "gay" had a completely different meaning when you said that word out loud to people. When my parents were growing up, it meant "happy." Today you say that word and it means something else. There is an actual ad by Dr Welch calling his grape juice unfermented wine. Dictionary.com defines wine in it's third definition as fermented or unfermented. Historical documents on many who preserved grape juice had called this beverage that did not intoxicate you as wine. They talked about the preservation of grape juice.

 

[Last]

They had ways of preserving fruits and vegetables. 1st Century historiean Flavius Josephus records in his Antiquities of the Jews:

The Works of Josephus; Quickverse 2010.

Since thy had methods to preserve fruits and vegetables for nearly one hundred years, I am quite content in believing that grapes were readily available at such times that they were needed for squeezing fresh unfermented wine into one's cup.

Food preservation has always existed. Wine is a form of food preservation. I am not sure what you are trying to argue from that passage. Are you seriously saying that people in the ancient world were able to preserve fruits perfectly for a hundred years equal to freshly picked fruits?

 

[Last]

The reason why some folks are deceived is that they believe wine websites or wine makers that say grape juice is turned into wine. They are a product of their modern day culture. This is what the word "wine" means today. As I said before, the word "gay" had a completely different meaning when you said that word out loud to people. When my parents were growing up, it meant "happy." Today you say that word and it means something else. There is an actual ad by Dr Welch calling his grape juice unfermented wine. Dictionary.com defines wine in it's third definition as fermented or unfermented. Historical documents on many who preserved grape juice had called this beverage that did not intoxicate you as wine. They talked about the preservation of grape juice.

Are you going back to playing games with words so that you can totally ignore basic science?

And now you are insulting wine makers, why, because they rely on science?

 

[Last]

Well, in order for this assertion to be true for someone, they would have to ignore history. It is true that grape juice from a grape is naturally fermenting, but it doesn't mean freshly squeezed juice is fully fermented and intoxicating. Also, they did make and preserve grape juice before Dr Welch.

You are all over the place and still not making any sense.

For a few hours after harvest time in the fall grape juice existed. This has been acknowledged throughout the topic. The rest of your assertions turned out to be garbage.

 

[Jason0047]

There is no information to the contrary. This is stuff kids learn in school.

Please tell me what school teaches this? If such a school does teach such a thing, then I will never send my kids there.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Food preservation has always existed. Wine is a form of food preservation. I am not sure what you are trying to argue from that passage. Are you seriously saying that people in the ancient world were able to preserve fruits perfectly for a hundred years equal to freshly picked fruits?

History records they did.

 

[Jason0047]

You are all over the place and still not making any sense.

For a few hours after harvest time in the fall grape juice existed. This has been acknowledged throughout the topic. The rest of your assertions turned out to be garbage.

I believe I am not making sense to you because you have somehow made yourself to believe things that are not true in regards to both the Bible and in wine making so as to defend your enjoyment of drinking. For this has nothing to do with defending the goodness of our God for you. It is all about the drink and the glory of it. But only God should get the glory, my friend. Alcohol is just a beverage. It is known for primarily destroying lives and not in blessing them.

Yes, we have a liberty in Christ, but do not let your good be evil spoken of. Do not make the drink into some kind of god.

 

[Maynard]

Please tell me. How can somebody swerve from the faith if one believes they have a liberty in Christ to drink under the NT (Not the OT) and encourage others to abstain out of love (And not as a commandment)? How can one swerve from the faith if one teaches that the OT saint (Not the NT saint) could not eat unclean animals and drink strong drink (according to many many many verses that you are ignoring)? Does not drinking make one swerve from the faith? Does believing Jesus is good who made a pure freshly squeezed grape juice that didn't intoxicate people make one swerve from the faith?

On the contrary, we are warned not to make our brother to stumble by our drinking. Would not John 2 be a public "green light" approval on having drinking parties or in getting drunk? Would this not lead one to swerve from the faith? Would not ignoring or twisting verses in the OT on ignoring the dangers of alcohol make one to swerve from the faith?

You are a person who's been lead astray, Jason, and are attempting now to lead others astray.


Christ changed water to WINE (not grape juice) in Cana.

Christ changed WINE (not grape juice) into his own precious blood at the Last Supper.

Look also at Genesis 14:18:
"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God."

^ This is a foreshadowing of the Last Supper and Christ's sacrifice at Calvary, actually. Melchizedek offered WINE, not grape juice.


Maybe you're simply a recovering alcoholic who's demonization of all-things-alcohol has gone too far? Could it be?

Quit imposing your ridiculous beliefs on others, Jason.
You will have to answer for it.

 

[gb9]

o.k. do not make wine into the devil. wine or beer is not evil. people that abuse it have the problem.

 

[Last]

Well, in order for this assertion to be true for someone, they would have to ignore history. It is true that grape juice from a grape is naturally fermenting, but it doesn't mean freshly squeezed juice is fully fermented and intoxicating. Also, they did make and preserve grape juice before Dr Welch.

No, they did not.

 

[Last]

History records they did.

No, it does not. You have shown nothing stating such.