Koran

[Bowman]

The term 'Muhammad' was not even a proper name when the Koran was written...

 

[ThomasLady]

"Muhammad" existed as a definite and important person in history. He lead the conversion of all of Arabia to the Muslim faith, using the Scriptures and especially the Old Testament to help him accomplish this. Those are facts (well accepted and supported by historical evidence).

Muslims believe that the revelations "Muhammad" was to have received from God, form the verses of the Koran. That is a fact.

Now you are saying that "Muhammad" had nothing at all to do with the Koran. There certainly is potential, as didymos pointed out, that "Muhammad" did not directly write the Koran, and certainly it could be that the Koran was written by people that heard "Muhammad" speak and wrote down what they recalled. But, apart from what a Muslim might have to say regarding your opinion, I personally think "Muhammad" had a lot to do with the words that ended up in the Koran.

 

[didymos]

To suggest that the words written in the Koran are not those of Mohammad would indeed be a revelation. But are you saying this didymos, or are you saying that they were his words, but someone else wrote them down?

As far as reading a translation, I am not going to learn to read the Koran in the first language it was written, any more than I am going to learn to read in Greek or Aramaic because there are those that say the English translation of the Bible misses some of the context and meaning in the original versions. But I think reading English translations of the Bible and Koran can still convey the main messages of their authors.

I think my post was clear enough. Muslims view the Koran as a DIRECT revelation from Allah, that was recited by Muhammed, and written down by his followers. They believe that the words of the Koran literally, word for word, correspond with a Koran that exists in heaven. The Koran was 'revealed' to Muhammed in (archaeic) arabic, so the muslims believe the 'heavenly' Koran is also in that language. That language is an integral part of the 'truth' of the 'revelation;' translate it and it doesn't correspond with the Koran that 'exists in heaven' anymore. Translating a text always means interpretating it aswell; you will always lose some of the original message in the process. That isn't a problem for christians, the 'truth' of the text isn't dependent on it being in the original language. The text is first and foremost INSPIRED by God, and He speaks to us in our language.
Talking about 'context...:' if you're interested in the Koran it's good idea to read something about the history, culture and tradition of islam aswell. I don't think you can really understand what's written in the Koran if you haven't studied islam aswell.
There's a difference between how muslims view the Koran and how historians view it by the way. Historically the Koran is just a combination of christian, jewish and tribal traditions as Muhammed (mis)understood them, as it was written down by his followers, and canonized as the word of Allah after that. In THAT sense you could indeed say that Muhammed is 'author' of the Koran, although you should view most of his 'writings' as badly done plagiarism then.

 

[Bowman]

"Muhammad" existed as a definite and important person in history. He lead the conversion of all of Arabia to the Muslim faith, using the Scriptures and especially the Old Testament to help him accomplish this. Those are facts (well accepted and supported by historical evidence).

There are TWO 'Muhammad's' which people confuse....The Koranic Muhammad...and the Islamic Muhammad.

The Koranic one (Praised One) is a participle and refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ in each of the four instances in which it is used.

The Islamic Muhammad is a myth with no supportable evidence within a century of his supposed existence.

Muslims believe that the revelations "Muhammad" was to have received from God, form the verses of the Koran. That is a fact.

And if you ask them to produce those verses?

Most likely they will pluck some from sura 53....of which, contains paraphrased Book of Revelation material...and actually makes John their prophet!

Now you are saying that "Muhammad" had nothing at all to do with the Koran.

That is what the Koran says....not me...

There certainly is potential, as didymos pointed out, that "Muhammad" did not directly write the Koran, and certainly it could be that the Koran was written by people that heard "Muhammad" speak and wrote down what they recalled.

Not possible, according to the Koran, itself.

According to Islamic myth....well...anything is possible through ignorance...

But, apart from what a Muslim might have to say regarding your opinion, I personally think "Muhammad" had a lot to do with the words that ended up in the Koran.

Now...if only you could prove that with scripture...

 

[ThomasLady]

So Muhammad is either Jesus Christ, or an invented person? C'mon. There is much more tangible support (independent references, artifacts, etc.) for Muhammad's existence than for Jesus, and taking into account the available evidence a more unbiased conclusion would be that they both existed; although no pictures or videos are available of either that would prove it to all.

 

[leonardronaldo]

As far as terrorism, as expected, there are some passages that encourage physical punishment of non-believers that do not seek peace with Muslims, but there are also passages encouraging Muslims to ignore and forgive non-belief. A lot of emphasis, as in most religions, for believers to donate money and not run away in the middle of a battle.

This paragraph you wrote is interesting. Questions that have been asked, even to Muhammad himself is: Which one shall be followed, then?
Here is a link to a tafsir (explanation of verses in quran), by Ibn Abbas (trusted cousin of muhammad himself)
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير

 

[leonardronaldo]

You will soon find out he will claim to be Gabriel the angel...and much more deluted theology. I once read the entire teachings of Buddhism, very interesting but filled with lots of opinions about how life functions. I think Buddha was looking for God in some way...but got caught up with opinions. The morals is similar to most religions at an extent.

false bro, muhammad never claim to be Gabriel. Not in the quran, nor hadith (at least sunni hadith). Don't know about Shia hadith.

 

[leonardronaldo]

There is no evidence for Mohammad being a prophet. He wrote the Qur'an, he testifies about himself. Jesus said "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." Thus there were many eyewitness testimonies that wrote the New Testament.

sura 29:27

[29:27]
And We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and We established the prophethood and the Scripture among his seed, and We gave him his reward in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he verily is among the righteous.

if muhammad was from ishmael lineage, it is clear then, even the quran claims only the seeds of Isaac and JACOB are the lineage of prophets gonna be.

 

[leonardronaldo]

One woman was kept against her will and forsed to cover and they put on a typ of gimp mask under the burka .
It made her feel ugly and awful and supressed in who she is and then burka on top of that.
It pulls down face.
messed up body corporates and golly.
They were also able to steal beautiful things from them.

Read article of a woman kept captive and raped by group with a man who was also captive.
Some were hung upside down while slaughtered .
They converted to islam or said they did so they might be released.
That was not what freed them but they were free in the end.



There are some things with islam i like. Like washing and cleaning
daily .


It is written often the words "the wicked ones" in translation of quran and of a punishment and hell for these.
They also spoke of several "levels" of heaven you can come to.


I know there has been muslims acting to be christians and they also speak of this in scriptures of a war from with in and sacrifice of a sin for higher cause in there view.
They also speak of mosque and churches taken over from with in and your brother and sister may be a enemy who got close to "keep enemy closer" .


There is also writings of he whom is concidered worse than satan for he fools all and he is described in scriptures to have similar appearance as mohammed only he is not so nice but he has great powers yet he is only a man.
They say Jesus will come and break illusion but that is after his natural death as he was not crucified nor did he suffer in what they believe. They say his "look like" crucified.



If you chat you have to write "pbuy" all time.
Peace be upon you preferbly in arabic and after you mention a prophet by name you have to or should say "peace be upon him".
Mohammed had a wife who fight by his side and one who highly educated as he did not know how to write she wrote the koran based upon what Mohammed told her from his visions.


It is good to be educated about it.
One iman is actually christian in his 9 but he is also iman knowing a lot about islam.

sorry to correct you. Iman means Faith. I believed what you meant was Imam (leaders or preachers in masjids/mosques).

 

[leonardronaldo]

I am done with about 75% of an English translation of the Koran. Certainly Mohammad recites the stories of Moses, Abraham and Noah many, many, many times. The Koran is unbelievably repetitive, and in that sense, very clear in its messages. Mohammad communicated that there is only 1 God, that what all people worship is actually the same God, and God sends prophets to all the different groups that have gone astray across the globe, to warn them that they should behave according to the Bible and Koran if they do not want to be thrown into the fire of hell at Judgment Day. Mohammad was the apostle sent to warn Arabs. And yes, he did not feel Jesus was the son of God, and he did not believe the Arabs that said God had daughters. But he does accept Jesus as speaking for God, speaking the Word of God. He was actually a great prophet/apostle for Jewish and Christian teachings and holy writings, apart from the belief that Jesus was God.

Allah through muhammad states that Jesus is God's Word. Look up sura 3:45 and sura 4:171

 

[leonardronaldo]

Hattiebod, you are expressing the reason I read this book; I mistrust expressions of fear, demonization, etc., by people that appear biased and unknowledgeable.

If you truly believe in the Christian Faith, in the Words of Jesus, you would communicate love for Mohammad. The reason that Jesus said Love your Enemies was not to tell us to fake love, it was because everyone is deserving of love. If we knew all that God knew about our "enemies," we would love them for real. So the man Mohammad, who has been demonized by millions that have never even read his works, wrote a book. None dispute that it was his words. I read it and now I know him better, and I can say I love him with a love discussed frequently by Dr. Martin Luther King, Agape, the love of understanding.

Remember, it is not whether the glass is half full, or half empty. If the glass has water, it is full. And Mohammad definitely had water in his glass.

Sir, simply reading someone's quotation, references and commandments are not demonizing.

 

[leonardronaldo]

T. Laurich,
Thank you for the post. As with most faiths, I agree that Islam as it is practiced today likely does not match up with Mohammad's Words as written in the Koran. And as with most things (including the English translation of the original writings of the authors of the Bible) a translation loses some of the gist of the original messages. But reading someone's book, even translated, gives you a feeling for them as a thinking person, at least at one point in their lives. So after reading the Koran, I have a much better feeling for this important figure in history, often referred to by people that don't research and think before they judge.

Lol tell me what was important about muhammad? you yourself admit in your previous posts that after reading the quran, you only found many repetitions of stories and most are copied from the Biblical stories (although actually he edited some, most likely after reading the weaker Talmud and/or Apocrypha Gospel)

 

[leonardronaldo]

Then you have not found Christ's peace.

Anyway, the part of a person that matters, that likely exists beyond this world, can be found among that persons writings on how they determine right or wrong, how they justify their belief in God, or non-belief in God. The Koran was clearly one source of finding Mohammad. Maybe there are better sources but I am satisfied with the Koran. I am now onto another person that I have heard strong opinions about, Adam Smith. I am reading his writings on Moral and Political Philosophy, and already, in just 50 pages, I am getting to know him. As usual, what I have heard in society about him was often wrong or a half-truth.

I agree with you, this time, that quran was only the words of muhammad but he made Allah as a supposed deity that revealed those verses to him.

 

[Blackson]

As long as we are here on earth,the devil will never stop to deceive us with his half truth-half lies tactics. That is exactly what the Koran does. Read on and you will make a conclusion in the end. I have read it and made my critique.

 

[Mammachickadee]

Society often demonizes certain people, cultures, races, etc. I tend to read the books that this bias would tell you not to read. So I, a white Irish person, raised catholic, am reading the Koran. Not as scary as you would think. Basically Mohammed felt that after Abraham and Moses (and the rest of the Apostles) there was Jesus. And after Jesus there was him. Basically he felt that the claim that Jesus and the holy spirit were one with God (trinity), was created by humans, and that even Jesus himself treated God as separate and better than him. Clearly the beginning of the Koran claims women are inferior and really speaks negatively about Jewish people. But nothing much of substance yet (I am up to the chapter called The Table). Waiting to see the evidence for Mohammed being a prophet.

As far as terrorism, as expected, there are some passages that encourage physical punishment of non-believers that do not seek peace with Muslims, but there are also passages encouraging Muslims to ignore and forgive non-belief. A lot of emphasis, as in most religions, for believers to donate money and not run away in the middle of a battle.

If you are reading anything but one of the original Korans, not written in English, you aren't getting the zest of Islam. Countless Muslims I speak to today who read the older versions of the Koran will recognize how diluted Islam is from its original form... but they see this as a good thing considering the conflicts that arose from the "pure Islam" of old.

 

[Bowman]

So Muhammad is either Jesus Christ, or an invented person? C'mon.

Correct.

There is much more tangible support (independent references, artifacts, etc.) for Muhammad's existence than for Jesus, and taking into account the available evidence a more unbiased conclusion would be that they both existed; although no pictures or videos are available of either that would prove it to all.

There is NO evidence for existence of someone named 'Muhammad' within the first 100 years of his supposed existence.

Its all after the fact....when the myth became legend...

 

[ThomasLady]

Mamachickadee, do you think that one can get a feel for Muhammad (not Islam) as a person from reading an English translation of the Koran? Perhaps more specifically, do you think Muhammad contributed significantly to the writing of the Koran?

 

[Bowman]

Mamachickadee, do you think that one can get a feel for Muhammad (not Islam) as a person from reading an English translation of the Koran? Perhaps more specifically, do you think Muhammad contributed significantly to the writing of the Koran?

You claimed to have just finished reading the Koran, so it should still be fresh in your mind........so....if this is the case, then where in all of the Koran is anything like the following written…

“I, Muhammad, wrote this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, dictated this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was inspired by an angel”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was divinely inspired”



Fact is, the Koran never once mentions who wrote the text, nor that there were any eyewitnesses, nor that it was divinely inspired.


Not once.

 

[ThomasLady]

Weak point Bowman. People still argue whether Shakespeare write all of those plays. Question is who does the evidence point to, and then interested people can make their own personal decision, which of course can be very different. The fact that some sections were clearly written to cover some of Muhammad's actions and label them as acceptable, leads me to conclude that Muhammad or someone close to him wrote at least part of the Koran. In addition, since there were many more historical records of that period compared to Christ's time, and millions of Arab's believe the Koran records Muhammad's communications of the revelations he felt he received, that adds some more weight to my confidence. But clearly there is alot that we do not know about the distant past, and I am open to changing my opinion if some new evidence is uncovered.

 

[T_Laurich]

Leonardo, I am a Christian. I am just not afraid to question things and seek the Truth, even if it means turning my views on their head. You can't know everything, so my opinions may often be wrong, but if I keep challenging them, publically or privately, I think I will get closer to the Truth, or Words that approach God.

ThomasLady: Help from muslims in Koran discussion Post number 8

Yes, the Koran says to go to war with nonbelievers, maybe focusing on Muhammad's local enemies that did not believe he was a prophet. But then again, he does sort of lump in the Jews and Christians as targets, occassionally. What I do not get, as I read an English translation of the Koran, is how the Koran can say this, yet at the same time praise Jesus so much, and testify that Jesus was speaking the Word of God. Jesus' message, unlike much of the Old Testament, is clearly one of peace. We are supposed to love our enemies, and if they attack us, turn the other cheek.

Can someone explain this contradiction in the Koran, hopefully from an educated point of view, rather than a prejudice point of view?

ThomasLady: Jesus (bible) Vs Isa (quran) post number 65

Christ is not coming, a comforter is coming with the knowledge of God, and people will listen because they will be convinced that God is real. And the lion will lie next to the lamb...

ThomasLadyWhen Christ Comes a 2nd Time, Won't most reject him...again? post number 7
That one shocked me personally...


Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Revelation 22:20-21 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

Hattiebod,
I don't subscribe to the superficial understanding of God. I hear words like Good News, and His Light and it is not enough. So I search and I think; I put in effort as did many of the first Christians, who were the philosophers and scientists of their day. It was clear to them and me, that Earthly reality (space and time) are further from the underlying true reality than God's heavenly reality. So the importance of anything expressed in time (end of time, evolution, our bodies, planets) is a product of the human mind. It belittles God to assign Him an individual personality with opinions on these subjects. Therefore, who cares if time ends. I am with and a part of God as He truly is, and that doesn't end when time does, just as I existed "before" time was constructed.

ThomasLady Re: I pray that more and more people will realize that we are indeed in the last days post #4
How could you have existed before time, if your name was/wasn't written in the book of like before you existed... And God did that before time... You get where I am going???




I personally do not believe this man has read God's word... and if he has, then I I hope he will read it again...

I put all the threads and post numbers so you can search them up easily... Just view his profile and go to recent posts like I did....

P.s. I am sure there are far more since every thread I looked at he posted something blasphemous...