looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[GWH]

Sabbatarianism views the Sabbath law as mandatory for Christians despite the teaching of Paul in Col. 2:16-17 that it merely foreshadowed God’s rest of salvation as indicated in Heb. 3:7-4:11 and thus is part of the Levitical laws that were superseded by the Gospel (Heb. 7:11-10:1) and by the indwelling of Christ’s HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:1-15).

Because the NT does not affirm the Sabbath Law as it did the moral commands in the Ten Commandments, one needs to discern the correct doctrine for Christians by considering the following Scriptures.

1. God rested from His work and rested on the seventh day and made it holy per Gen. 2:2-3.

2. Moses promulgated the Sabbath law as the 4th of the Ten Commandments in Exo. 20:8-11, cf. Lev. 19:3&30, Deut. 5:12-15.

3. Solomon builds a temple for burnt offerings on the Sabbath in 2Chr. 2:4.

4. Isaiah said those are blessed who keep the Sabbath in Isa. 56:2-6.

5. Jeremiah commands keeping the Sabbath holy in Jer. 17:21-27.

6. Ezekiel referred to the Sabbaths in Ezek.20:12

7. Jesus declared he is Lord of the Sabbath and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath in Matt. 12:1-12.

8. Jesus healed a crippled woman on the Sabbath in Luke 13:10-16.

If Jesus thought keeping the Sabbath was an important law, he would have affirmed it on these two occasions, but he did not specifically nullify it either, which jibes/harmonizes perfectly with Paul.

9. Paul taught that a person may rest on the Sabbath or not in Col. 2:16, Gal. 4:9-11 & Rom. 14:5.

10. Hebrews encourages Christians to enter God’s Sabbath rest by persevering faith in Heb. 3:7-4:11.

The primary sin per the NT is transgression of God's requirement for salvation (GRFS, Gal. 3:1-14), and secondary sins are transgression of Christ’s law (John 13:34), which summarizes the OT moral laws (Matt. 22:37-40) affirmed by the NT (Matt. 5:17-48) and calls them the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), which does NOT include all 613 laws of Moses, such as those pertaining to mildew and infectious disease in Lev. 14.

Jesus fulfilled/accomplished the 613 Mosaic laws (Matt. 5:17-19) and taught that righteousness must surpass/supersede that of the Pharisees (Matt. 5:20) including Paul (Acts 22:3-5), to whom Jesus appeared, saying “Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you… I am sending you to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

Paul did just that when he preached to the folks (both Jews and Gentiles per Acts 14:1-5) in Galatia (Acts 13:49), encouraging them to remain true to the faith (Acts 14:22), which he reiterated in his epistle, beginning “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ… But if anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Gal. 1:3-9)

Paul stated the true gospel thusly, “I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ [the HS] lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved he and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness [holiness] could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Paul may also have written Hebrews, which warns against not entering God’s Sabbath rest by not holding firmly until the end the confidence/faith in Christ (Heb. 3:14, 4:2). Heb. 7:11-10:1 begins as follows:

“If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood, why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also… The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. Such a high priest truly meets our need… the Son, who has been made perfect forever, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven… The ministry of Jesus has received is superior to the old one [of Moses], since the NC is established on better promises… God said, ‘The days are coming when I will make a new covenant’ [JR 31:31-34]. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts… By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”

In this passage the Lord says that the OC including the Sabbath commandment is obsolete/superseded by the Gospel of Christ. Need God's Word say more?

 

[TMS]

So Jesus' work was incomplete? Your works aren't going to save you from future sins. Only Jesus can and did that. If you're relying on your own works to complete His work, you're definitely going to come up short.

I didn't say that we earn salvation.
We do not work to gain anything. It is a GIFT from Jesus.

But salvation from sin involves 3 parts.

All three are through faith in Jesus.

Justification. = the gift of Christ's righteous character. When we ask for forgiveness we will recieve a perfect clean slate as if we never sinned.
Repentance is the key.

Sanctification = the gift of Jesus living in us to overcome sin.. when we have faith in the power of Jesus, He give us victory.
The key is the power of the Holy Spirit.

Glorification = the gift of a new body. Jesus will restore us to our unfallen state. The key is to be saved.

The power comes from Jesus. We can not boast in anything good. But we are holding the door of our heart close or open to Jesus.

If your teaching that we can live in sin and hold onto sin and be Justified at the same time you are being fouled.

Many Churches are big on the cheap grace, Believe and your saved, doctrine.
But Jesus came to fully save us from sin. Not to save us IN OUR SIN.

Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[JemimaJade]

So biblical faith certainly involves trust, allegiance, and obedience, not just mental assent.

Yes…..And that trust and obedience has to transcend fear of man. No penalty imposed by man would shift that trust because of someone threatening torture or death.
We remember that whole families were placed in the arenas for the entertainment of the Roman crowds….Men and their wives and children were facing a horrible death by wild beasts, and could have walked free by placing a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the Emperor….rather than compromise, they chose death. Would we have had that kind of faith? Would we have it today?

The Revelation mentions “the mark of the beast”….without which one would be cut off from engaging in the “normal” activities of life…”no buying or selling” without the mark. The Bible tells us that we cannot take that mark….so we will have to rely on God to support us through the end of this world system of government.
Again…do we have that kind of faith?

Where I would make a distinction is that obedience is the fruit of genuine faith rather than the basis of salvation.

Faith in the shed blood of the Christ is the basis for salvation. Obedience, even if it means death, will test that faith to its limit. Many brave martyrs have gone before us….

In John's Gospel, those who truly believe in Christ follow Him, abide in Him, and obey Him.

How is that demonstrated? How well do people in the divided church system follow Christ, abide in him and obey him?

The moral codes of bygone eras have all but disappeared. Sex between unmarried people is condoned as “normal” in the world…are they “normal” for Christians though, just because the world no longer has a moral issue with that?

What about homosexuality these days? Are they entitled to be proud of what God is not? Where do such individuals stand with God if they want to be Christians and practicing homosexuals at the same time?
God does not condemn the person, but the actions committed.

What about “friendship with the world”…how would we define that? James tells us that “friendship with the world is enmity with God” (James 4:4)….do we understand why?

Do we understand who is ruling this world? (1 John 5:19)….and why he was given this authority? (Luke 4:5-7; John 18:36)
How many Christians are divided not only by denomination, but by politics? How many are devoted to their nation and would willingly give their lives for their country…whilst taking the lives of others…sometimes fellow Christians of another nation? (1 John 4:20-21) What happened to “thou shalt no kill”?

So I don't think we're looking at two different groups, "believers" and "obedient believers."

I don’t think so either…..what the Bible describes are Christians divided into two separate categories….a small finite group with a heavenly resurrection and a definite role description….(Rev 20:6) and an infinite “great crowd” of other Christians who will enjoy everlasting life on earth as God first purposed.

Rev 7:2-15…TLB…
“And I saw another angel coming from the east, carrying the Great Seal of the Living God. And he shouted out to those four angels who had been given power to injure earth and sea, “Wait! Don’t do anything yet—hurt neither earth nor sea nor trees—until we have placed the Seal of God upon the foreheads of his servants.” How many were given this mark? I heard the number—it was 144,000; out of all twelve tribes of Israel” . . . . So here are the first group…

“After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from all nations and provinces and languages, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white, with palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a mighty shout, “Salvation comes from our God upon the throne, and from the Lamb.”

The identity of this “vast crowd, too great to count, from all nations” are not Jews. They are standing before the throne clothed in white (denoting spiritual cleanliness) and they have palm branches in their hands, signifying their peaceful condition…..and they attributing salvation to and to the Lamb.
John asks who they are…

“Then one of the twenty-four Elders asked me, “Do you know who these are, who are clothed in white, and where they come from?” “No, sir,” I replied. “Please tell me.”“These are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation,” he said; “they washed their robes and whitened them by the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are here before the throne of God, serving him day and night in his temple. The one sitting on the throne will shelter them”.

So these are the two groups….one numbered and the other uncounted…and all are ‘before the throne of God, serving in his Temple’.
Two separate groups with different destinies and different roles in God’s purpose for this earth and its future….the governors and the governed.

Where we still differ is that I don't see the second half narrowing the first half.

Both are stated with equal force IMO. The first part of John 3:16 is the reason and the promise ….and the second part is about the penalty for not accepting God’s means of salvation…there is only one.
And it involves the right voluntary choices on our part. We just have to understand what “believing” means in the Biblical context.

The verse tells us who receives the benefit of that love, but I don't think it redefines "world" to mean only a smaller group within humanity.

When Jesus spoke about the future, he said….
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
This tells us that not every person will make the right choices…the easy way is so much more appealing and you can enter through a wide gate which allows you to bring along all the baggage you want for the journey. The majority choose the easy way…but “few” choose the difficult road to life.

Then he goes on to say….
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matt 7. 13-14; 21-23 ESV)

So even calling yourself a Christian, and claiming that Jesus is your “Lord” won’t mean anything if you don’t have the right actions to back up your claim…..not even mighty works will do it.
Jesus’ stinging rebuke is “I never knew you”….NEVER means “not ever”….so let that sink in. Imagine what that will mean when that condemnation is delivered….people will be pleading that they were doing all the right things….how did they not know?

How are they “workers of lawlessness” whilst at the same time pretending to be Christians? Whose laws are they breaking?

 

[OMC]

Yes…..And that trust and obedience has to transcend fear of man. No penalty imposed by man would shift that trust because of someone threatening torture or death.
We remember that whole families were placed in the arenas for the entertainment of the Roman crowds….Men and their wives and children were facing a horrible death by wild beasts, and could have walked free by placing a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the Emperor….rather than compromise, they chose death. Would we have had that kind of faith? Would we have it today?

The Revelation mentions “the mark of the beast”….without which one would be cut off from engaging in the “normal” activities of life…”no buying or selling” without the mark. The Bible tells us that we cannot take that mark….so we will have to rely on God to support us through the end of this world system of government.
Again…do we have that kind of faith?

Faith in the shed blood of the Christ is the basis for salvation. Obedience, even if it means death, will test that faith to its limit. Many brave martyrs have gone before us….

How is that demonstrated? How well do people in the divided church system follow Christ, abide in him and obey him?

The moral codes of bygone eras have all but disappeared. Sex between unmarried people is condoned as “normal” in the world…are they “normal” for Christians though, just because the world no longer has a moral issue with that?

What about homosexuality these days? Are they entitled to be proud of what God is not? Where do such individuals stand with God if they want to be Christians and practicing homosexuals at the same time?
God does not condemn the person, but the actions committed.

What about “friendship with the world”…how would we define that? James tells us that “friendship with the world is enmity with God” (James 4:4)….do we understand why?

Do we understand who is ruling this world? (1 John 5:19)….and why he was given this authority? (Luke 4:5-7; John 18:36)
How many Christians are divided not only by denomination, but by politics? How many are devoted to their nation and would willingly give their lives for their country…whilst taking the lives of others…sometimes fellow Christians of another nation? (1 John 4:20-21) What happened to “thou shalt no kill”?

I don’t think so either…..what the Bible describes are Christians divided into two separate categories….a small finite group with a heavenly resurrection and a definite role description….(Rev 20:6) and an infinite “great crowd” of other Christians who will enjoy everlasting life on earth as God first purposed.

Rev 7:2-15…TLB…
“And I saw another angel coming from the east, carrying the Great Seal of the Living God. And he shouted out to those four angels who had been given power to injure earth and sea, “Wait! Don’t do anything yet—hurt neither earth nor sea nor trees—until we have placed the Seal of God upon the foreheads of his servants.” How many were given this mark? I heard the number—it was 144,000; out of all twelve tribes of Israel” . . . . So here are the first group…

“After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from all nations and provinces and languages, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white, with palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a mighty shout, “Salvation comes from our God upon the throne, and from the Lamb.”

I think we agree on more than we disagree.
I agree that biblical faith must be stronger than fear.
The examples you mentioned remind us that genuine faith is not just agreeing with a doctrine.
It is remaining loyal to Christ when obedience becomes costly.
Many believers throughout history paid for that loyalty with their lives.
I also agree that Jesus' warnings in Matthew 7 are sobering.
Merely saying "Lord, Lord" is not enough.
A profession of faith without a transformed life is worthless.
The New Testament repeatedly teaches that those who truly know Christ will bear fruit consistent with that profession.
Where I would hesitate is when we move from that truth to identifying two distinct classes of Christians with different eternal destinies.
I certainly agree that Revelation 7 presents both the 144,000 and the great multitude, but I'm not convinced the text explicitly says one group is the governing class in heaven while the other is the governed class on earth.
That's the point I would still want demonstrated from the text itself.
As for Matthew 7, I think the key phrase is: "I never knew you."
That's what has always stood out to me.
Jesus doesn't say, "I knew you once but no longer."
He says, "I never knew you."
These people had religious activity, impressive works, and public professions, but lacked a genuine relationship with Him.
So I completely agree that the narrow way involves more than verbal belief.
Genuine faith changes how we live.
My only caution is that we should let each passage define its own point before using it to establish a larger system.
On the central issue, though, we're in agreement: biblical faith is not mere intellectual assent.
It is trust in Christ that expresses itself in obedience.

 

[NightTwister]

I didn't say that we earn salvation.
We do not work to gain anything. It is a GIFT from Jesus.

But salvation from sin involves 3 parts.

All three are through faith in Jesus.

Justification. = the gift of Christ's righteous character. When we ask for forgiveness we will recieve a perfect clean slate as if we never sinned.
Repentance is the key.

Sanctification = the gift of Jesus living in us to overcome sin.. when we have faith in the power of Jesus, He give us victory.
The key is the power of the Holy Spirit.

Glorification = the gift of a new body. Jesus will restore us to our unfallen state. The key is to be saved.

The power comes from Jesus. We can not boast in anything good. But we are holding the door of our heart close or open to Jesus.

If your teaching that we can live in sin and hold onto sin and be Justified at the same time you are being fouled.

Many Churches are big on the cheap grace, Believe and your saved, doctrine.
But Jesus came to fully save us from sin. Not to save us IN OUR SIN.

Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I never said you can "live in sin", those are your words. Jesus saves us and keeps us, not saves us and then we keep us.

 

[mailmandan]

I never said you can "live in sin", those are your words. Jesus saves us and keeps us, not saves us and then we keep us.

What is it with all these "live in sin" accusations from certain folks on Christian Chat?

To live in sin is to practice sin as one's lifestyle or bent of life. We already know from 1 John 3:9 that no one who is born of God practices sin.

We already heard more than enough of these same types of "live in sin" accusations from ScooterJackson.

 

[Churchgoer]

I would like to hear from those who insist on 4th law, what is your practice on obeying this law?

Still waiting.
Guess no one is practicing it?

 

[frederickdoc]

The priesthood was set up as a shadow.
The order of melchizedek was set up as a shadow..

JESUS is the antitype.. the shadow perfectly represents what Jesus did and is doing.

The shadows are removed by the real deal. The shadow services and systems were given for the people to understand how sins are dealt with and how salvation works.

The sabbath was made before sin..
It is not a shadow law
There are many laws in the old testament that are not shadows, but moral laws.

All you said above, does nothing to say the sabbath is a shadow law.

The Oath
i didnt say anything if you like truth. plus wasnt trying to say Shadow law if anything it was The way it way dine by men till The Fullness of comes to pass. Sabbath are not all the same and jesus is in The final sabbath Rest all the others come passed away there is no others

 

[JemimaJade]

Where I would hesitate is when we move from that truth to identifying two distinct classes of Christians with different eternal destinies.
I certainly agree that Revelation 7 presents both the 144,000 and the great multitude, but I'm not convinced the text explicitly says one group is the governing class in heaven while the other is the governed class on earth.
That's the point I would still want demonstrated from the text itself.

I must thank you for your responses as this has been a very pleasant exchange.

Using the Bible to speak for itself means allowing the verses in context to say what they say, according to the intent of the one writing it, and then allowing other texts to support it.

It has been my experience over many years on Bible discussion sites, that cherry picked verses are chosen for what they say outside of what the whole of Scripture teaches, which leads to all kinds of conjecture and using obscure verses, to support twisted doctrines.
Many church doctrines dictate the meaning, rather that allowing the Bible to tell its own complete story.

Another factor in the difference between the 144,000 and the unnumbered “great crowd” is the fact that only the great crowd are said to “come out of the great tribulation”, which was part of Jesus’ description of end time events. (Matt 24:21-22) This coming tribulation, Jesus said, was greater than anything experienced on earth before…..and would never occur again.

This great crowd survive that great tribulation and “come out” of it. This occurs on earth, whereas the 144,000 are seen with the Lamb on Mount Zion. (Rev 14:1-5) Paul referred to a “heavenly Mount Zion” in Hebrews 12:22. So the 144,000 are in heaven with Jesus, whilst the great crowd are on earth.

So now we are seeing the ‘types and shadows’ that represent Bible truth. Rev 20:6 speaks of the role that these will play as ‘kings and priests’…..remembering that no human could be both a king and a priest under Israel’s tribal system. Jesus was the first Jew to be proclaimed as both a King and a High Priest….. “according to the manner of Melchizedek“. (Heb 5:10; 7:16)

Those who receive the Holy Spirit are “sealed” as “a token in advance of their inheritance” (Eph 1:13-14)….so receiving the Holy Spirit was something they experienced on earth in the flesh, but once their ‘transformation’ took place, either at their resurrection or as those who remained on earth at the time of Christ’s judgment, (1 Cor 15:51-52) they are given spirit bodies in order to dwell in the presence of God in heaven.

This is what it means to be “born again”…it is the transformation that takes place like a “new birth” to a new life, and because these are elected (or chosen) by God, we who are of the great crowd, are assured that they will be the best rulers humans could ever have…..like Jesus, every one of them have lived in the flesh and can empathize with the frailty of the human condition.

Since these who are anointed with God’s spirit are given an inordinate desire to be in heaven with our Lord, that desire transcends the natural desire of humans to live in paradise on earth.

When we imagine heaven…what image is conjured up in our minds? Is it not paradise?
Yet where was the first paradise?…and how long did God intend humans to live there, once the whole earth was transformed to resemble the garden of Eden? Only the fall prevented that from taking place. The “tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that life would continue indefinitely. (Gen 3:22-24)

This is what is restored to redeemed mankind….and it is a wonderful prospect….as Rev 21:2-5 tells us….

“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (ESV)

God will be with “man” and will ‘spread his tent over them’, (Rev 7:15) as it was the custom in ancient times to invite guests into your tent and provide food, shelter and security for them.

‘All things made new’! Imagine….no pain or suffering, no sickness, old age or death to ruin God’s plans for our future. After cleansing the world of all wickedness, ‘Plan A’ can go ahead unimpeded…..forever.

 

[OMC]

I must thank you for your responses as this has been a very pleasant exchange.

Using the Bible to speak for itself means allowing the verses in context to say what they say, according to the intent of the one writing it, and then allowing other texts to support it.

It has been my experience over many years on Bible discussion sites, that cherry picked verses are chosen for what they say outside of what the whole of Scripture teaches, which leads to all kinds of conjecture and using obscure verses, to support twisted doctrines.
Many church doctrines dictate the meaning, rather that allowing the Bible to tell its own complete story.

Another factor in the difference between the 144,000 and the unnumbered “great crowd” is the fact that only the great crowd are said to “come out of the great tribulation”, which was part of Jesus’ description of end time events. (Matt 24:21-22) This coming tribulation, Jesus said, was greater than anything experienced on earth before…..and would never occur again.

This great crowd survive that great tribulation and “come out” of it. This occurs on earth, whereas the 144,000 are seen with the Lamb on Mount Zion. (Rev 14:1-5) Paul referred to a “heavenly Mount Zion” in Hebrews 12:22. So the 144,000 are in heaven with Jesus, whilst the great crowd are on earth.

So now we are seeing the ‘types and shadows’ that represent Bible truth. Rev 20:6 speaks of the role that these will play as ‘kings and priests’…..remembering that no human could be both a king and a priest under Israel’s tribal system. Jesus was the first Jew to be proclaimed as both a King and a High Priest….. “according to the manner of Melchizedek“. (Heb 5:10; 7:16)

Those who receive the Holy Spirit are “sealed” as “a token in advance of their inheritance” (Eph 1:13-14)….so receiving the Holy Spirit was something they experienced on earth in the flesh, but once their ‘transformation’ took place, either at their resurrection or as those who remained on earth at the time of Christ’s judgment, (1 Cor 15:51-52) they are given spirit bodies in order to dwell in the presence of God in heaven.

This is what it means to be “born again”…it is the transformation that takes place like a “new birth” to a new life, and because these are elected (or chosen) by God, we who are of the great crowd, are assured that they will be the best rulers humans could ever have…..like Jesus, every one of them have lived in the flesh and can empathize with the frailty of the human condition.

Since these who are anointed with God’s spirit are given an inordinate desire to be in heaven with our Lord, that desire transcends the natural desire of humans to live in paradise on earth.

When we imagine heaven…what image is conjured up in our minds? Is it not paradise?
Yet where was the first paradise?…and how long did God intend humans to live there, once the whole earth was transformed to resemble the garden of Eden? Only the fall prevented that from taking place. The “tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that life would continue indefinitely. (Gen 3:22-24)

This is what is restored to redeemed mankind….and it is a wonderful prospect….as Rev 21:2-5 tells us….

“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (ESV)

God will be with “man” and will ‘spread his tent over them’, (Rev 7:15) as it was the custom in ancient times to invite guests into your tent and provide food, shelter and security for them.

‘All things made new’! Imagine….no pain or suffering, no sickness, old age or death to ruin God’s plans for our future. After cleansing the world of all wickedness, ‘Plan A’ can go ahead unimpeded…..forever.

I suppose my question would be this: if Revelation intended to teach two distinct destinies for redeemed believers, where is that taught most explicitly?
That's the piece I'm still looking for.
I can see the pattern you're drawing, but I'm not yet convinced the pattern amounts to a direct statement.
In any case, I've genuinely enjoyed the exchange as well.
It's refreshing to discuss these things thoughtfully without having to turn every disagreement into a battle.

 

[JemimaJade]

I suppose my question would be this: if Revelation intended to teach two distinct destinies for redeemed believers, where is that taught most explicitly?

Since the Revelation was the last book in the Christian canon, it’s truths remained a bit of a mystery till it was time for Jesus to return.
As Daniel had prophesied, only at “the time of the end” would God’s servants fully understand the meaning of his prophecies. (Dan 12:4; 9-10) So even John was a bit bewildered at what Jesus revealed to him.

Daniel’s prophesies included the march of world powers having jurisdiction over God’s nation from Babylon down to the present day, and Daniel foretold that it would to be in “the days of those kings” (earth’s final rulers) that God would bring in the rulership of his own Kingdom….the one Jesus taught us to pray for…it would “come” as the prophesy states….describing the feet of iron and clay in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image.…

“In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.” (Daniel 2:41-45 NASB)

So only now, in these “last days” would God’s servants have a true picture of what was coming.

The last ruling authorities would see the end of earth’s mismanagement…and the introduction of God’s means of getting his original purpose for mankind on this earth, back to what he intended….I believe that “the church” completely lost sight of that intent….so focussed on getting to heaven, that they forgot where God put us to “live forever” in the first place……mortal humans with access to “the tree of life”, guaranteeing that we would live forever in mortal flesh. That purpose never went away. What God starts…he completely finishes. (Isa 55:11)

That's the piece I'm still looking for.
I can see the pattern you're drawing, but I'm not yet convinced the pattern amounts to a direct statement.

It is my hope that many will see the bigger picture and realize that we are God’s project….and that he had a purpose in our creation that is still to be brought to a completion. A detour was necessary to combat a rebellion, but the way God dealt with the situation means that it can never happen again….and who knows what God has planned for other worlds in his vast universe..? We may well be the start of something so much bigger….and having all the “bugs in the system” sorted out here, all can proceeded as God has planned.

In any case, I've genuinely enjoyed the exchange as well.
It's refreshing to discuss these things thoughtfully without having to turn every disagreement into a battle.

It proves that people can agree to disagree…agreeably.
We are all free willed and can exercise that freedom of choice as we see fit. The Bible tells us that God is choosing us as much as we are choosing him. (John 6:44; 65) What is he looking for?

 

[frederickdoc]

Brain R
So keep The Sabbath day Holy. The the rest of the week are they to be Holy Also?
Just make it continuous Rest you All know Jesus is seated Blessing ,I would hope. So let's celebrate the next day and then you know that we're in it in His kingdom why try to bring it back the Old Kingdom it has passed as far as the those that I filled with the Holy Spirit . Who in their right mind would Want to Turn Theirs Back on the Holy Ghost? Then Look back & turn to pullar salt.

 

[OMC]

Since the Revelation was the last book in the Christian canon, it’s truths remained a bit of a mystery till it was time for Jesus to return.
As Daniel had prophesied, only at “the time of the end” would God’s servants fully understand the meaning of his prophecies. (Dan 12:4; 9-10) So even John was a bit bewildered at what Jesus revealed to him.

Daniel’s prophesies included the march of world powers having jurisdiction over God’s nation from Babylon down to the present day, and Daniel foretold that it would to be in “the days of those kings” (earth’s final rulers) that God would bring in the rulership of his own Kingdom….the one Jesus taught us to pray for…it would “come” as the prophesy states….describing the feet of iron and clay in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image.…

“In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.” (Daniel 2:41-45 NASB)

So only now, in these “last days” would God’s servants have a true picture of what was coming.

The last ruling authorities would see the end of earth’s mismanagement…and the introduction of God’s means of getting his original purpose for mankind on this earth, back to what he intended….I believe that “the church” completely lost sight of that intent….so focussed on getting to heaven, that they forgot where God put us to “live forever” in the first place……mortal humans with access to “the tree of life”, guaranteeing that we would live forever in mortal flesh. That purpose never went away. What God starts…he completely finishes. (Isa 55:11)

It is my hope that many will see the bigger picture and realize that we are God’s project….and that he had a purpose in our creation that is still to be brought to a completion. A detour was necessary to combat a rebellion, but the way God dealt with the situation means that it can never happen again….and who knows what God has planned for other worlds in his vast universe..? We may well be the start of something so much bigger….and having all the “bugs in the system” sorted out here, all can proceeded as God has planned.

It proves that people can agree to disagree…agreeably.
We are all free willed and can exercise that freedom of choice as we see fit. The Bible tells us that God is choosing us as much as we are choosing him. (John 6:44; 65) What is he looking for?

I certainly agree that God's purpose for creation has not failed.
Genesis begins with man on earth in fellowship with God, and Revelation ends with God dwelling with redeemed humanity.
That's a beautiful theme that runs through the entire Bible.

Where I still hesitate is with the statement that these truths could only be understood in the last days.
Daniel certainly says parts of the prophecy would be sealed until the time of the end, but I would want to be careful about using that as an explanation for a doctrine that isn't clearly stated elsewhere in Scripture.

For example, I can easily find passages that speak of believers reigning with Christ, the resurrection, the new heavens and new earth, and God dwelling with man.
What I'm still looking for is the explicit passage that says one group of redeemed believers has a heavenly destiny while another group of redeemed believers has an earthly destiny.

Don't get me wrong, I can follow the pattern you're drawing.
I just haven't yet seen the text make the distinction as directly as you're suggesting.

That said, I completely agree with you on one thing: many Christians have become so focused on "going to heaven" that they've lost sight of the Bible's emphasis on the restoration of creation itself.
Revelation doesn't end with man escaping creation.
It ends with God making all things new and dwelling with redeemed humanity.
That's a truth we probably don't emphasize nearly enough.

It proves that people can agree to disagree…agreeably.
We are all free willed and can exercise that freedom of choice as we see fit. The Bible tells us that God is choosing us as much as we are choosing him. (John 6:44; 65) What is he looking for?

If I had to answer from the passages you cited, I'd say God is looking for people who are willing to come to Him on His terms rather than their own.
Jesus said: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).
Yet He also continually calls people to believe, repent, follow Him, and abide in Him.
So whatever the relationship between God's choosing and our choosing, it doesn't seem to eliminate either one.
Personally, when I look at Scripture as a whole, I see God seeking hearts that are humble, teachable, and responsive to the truth.
Not perfect people, but people willing to trust Him when He reveals Himself.
That's one reason I love the contrast between the proud religious leaders and the tax collectors, fishermen, and sinners who came to Christ.
The issue wasn't intelligence or status.
It was whether they were willing to receive what God was offering.
In that sense, I think we probably agree more than we disagree.
God's grace always comes first, but people are still responsible for how they respond to that grace.
And yes, our conversation is proof that Christians can disagree strongly and still treat one another with respect.
Sadly, that sometimes seems rarer than it should be.