Loss of salvation???

[Genez]

Chat GPT can sort this out for you.

That's a discerning question, and you're right to consider the context carefully.

1 Corinthians 3:10–15 does primarily deal with how leaders and teachers in the church build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, who is explicitly called the foundation in verse 11:

“For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (v.11)​

Here’s the key idea of the passage:

• Paul is using a construction metaphor to describe how he (and others) are building the church.
• Christ is the only true foundation.
• Others (teachers, apostles, pastors, etc.) build on that foundation with either precious materials (gold, silver, costly stones) or inferior materials (wood, hay, straw).
• The “Day” (meaning the Day of Judgment) will test each one’s work by fire to see what endures.

So is this passage about the church or personal endurance?

Primarily, this is about the quality of ministry work done by those who labor in the church—especially its leaders. It's corporate more than personal. It’s about how the church is being built on Christ: Are people teaching the truth? Are they building with love, truth, humility—or with self-glory, error, or superficial teaching?

But there are implications for personal endurance and faithfulness:

• Though the passage is not mainly a direct warning to individual believers about falling away, it does imply that some work may be burned, though the worker himself is saved “yet so as through fire.” (v.15)
• This highlights a sobering truth: it is possible to build poorly on the true foundation, and while one might still be saved, the fruit of their labor might not endure.

Not a direct teaching on falling away

If you're looking for more direct instruction on endurance and not falling away, passages like:

• Hebrews 3:14 – “For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.”
• Matthew 24:13 – “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
• Revelation 2:10 – “Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

These are more specifically about personal endurance in the faith.

Summary:

• 1 Corinthians 3:10–15 is about the building of the church, especially the responsibility of those who lead and teach.
• It’s not primarily about personal endurance in salvation, but it does relate to the eternal significance of how we live and serve Christ.
• For teachings on faithfulness and not falling away, other passages (like Hebrews and Revelation) are more directly focused.

Chat GPT????

I see.

There is the Father.
The Son.
And, the pre-programmed Robot.

You are lost in space...

 

[Thomas2]

I will let junior deal with this.

Chat GPT.

❖ Can a Christian lose their salvation by walking in the flesh?
Short Answer:

If someone persists in walking in the flesh without repentance, it raises the question of whether they were truly born again to begin with.
Key Passages:

• Romans 8:13 – “If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
• Galatians 5:19–21 – Lists the works of the flesh and warns: “Those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Insight:

Walking in the flesh is incompatible with living in the Spirit. The Spirit of God transforms the true believer, and while believers do struggle and fall at times, a life characterized by unrepentant sin is a denial of that transformation. If someone lives habitually in the flesh, it suggests they may not have truly known Christ, even if they professed Him.

❖ Can a Christian lose their salvation by not enduring in their faith in Jesus Christ?
Short Answer:

Yes—if one does not endure in faith, they will not be saved. But those who are truly born of God will endure, because He sustains them.
Key Passages:

• Hebrews 3:14 – “For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.”
• Colossians 1:22–23 – “…if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel…”
• Matthew 24:13 – “The one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Insight:

Endurance is not what earns salvation—it’s the evidence that salvation has truly taken root. A faith that withers shows it was never truly alive. As Jesus taught in the parable of the sower, some receive the word with joy, but when trials come, they fall away (Matthew 13:20–21).

❖ Is falling away a reality or a misunderstanding of God’s sovereignty?
Biblical Tension:

There’s a real tension in Scripture between:

1. God’s sovereignty in saving and preserving His people:
   • “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.” (Philippians 1:6)
   • “My sheep hear my voice… no one will snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:27–29)
2. The genuine warnings about falling away:
   • “Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
   • “Some have made shipwreck of their faith.” (1 Timothy 1:19)

Theological Balance:

• God is sovereign—and no one He truly saves will be lost.
• But Scripture never lets us take that as a license for spiritual complacency.
• Those who fall away were never truly born of God, though they may have tasted the truth (Hebrews 6:4–6), just as Judas walked with Jesus but never truly knew Him.

So what is the heart of the matter?

True salvation is marked by enduring faith and love.​

Faith that fades, love that grows cold, a life lived in the flesh—these are signs that one may have never truly known Christ, even if they thought they did.​

God is sovereign, yes. But He sovereignly works through faith, through love, and through endurance. He doesn’t override our will to keep us in Christ; He transforms our will by the Spirit so that we walk in love, obedience, and trust.

Final Thoughts:

Falling away is real, but it doesn't mean someone had salvation and then lost it like misplacing a wallet. It means they never truly knew Christ—their root was shallow, their love cold, their faith external.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us...”​

—1 John 2:19​

But for the one who truly loves Christ, who stumbles yet rises again, who clings to Him—there is no condemnation. Christ will hold you fast.

Junior needs more input.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us...”​

—1 John 2:19​

"But for the one who truly loves Christ, who stumbles yet rises again, who clings to Him—there is no condemnation. Christ will hold you fast."


Two key mistakes here, which is very apparent by reading the quoted chapter, 1 John 2.

Two examples are given by junior with this quote, to attempt to assume that the ones who are never truly in the faith simply depart from the ones who are in the faith, and then assessing the faithful ones as stumbling, and rising again, avoiding condemnation, claiming Christ still holds onto those ones.

That is a well known claim by this world of deceit.

But looking at the actual words of light, will clear all of that darkness away.

If one thinks they are in the light, ( of Christ, as the true light now shined. 1 John 2:8.) and instead of loving their brother, they hate them working unrighteousness against them, they are in darkness until now.

If a person loves their brother, ( and the love of Christ is shed into their heart by the Holy Ghost given unto them, giving them hope. Romans 5:5) they abide in the light, not leave it, and as we understand they have no reason to stumble, expressed by the ones who hate their brother, having no belief in Christ, no love of God given into their heart, no Holy Spirit in them, ( no Spirit of truth in the antichrist who is a liar denying Christ.) they are in darkness and walk in darkness, with blind eyes.


1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


Here is more scripture why the wicked stumble..


Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.



Back on 1 John 2.


The wicked in their lust, pass away with the world, but the ones who do the will of God abide forever. ( he that loves his brother bides in the light, with no occasion of stumbling in him/the true light shines in him/ if any man walks in the day he stumbles not, seeing the light of this world/ Christ is the light come into the world.)


1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.




1 John 2 and we heard of the antichrist coming, many of them who are now made manifest because of not having ability to acknowledge the truth, ( 2 Timothy 2:25, Titus 1:1.) but only denying it. ( false prophet/false teachers.) They have some sort of godliness, always learning, resisting the truth, their folly is manifested to all men. ( many follow their subtle ways, turning the grace of God into lust/ the world passes away and its lust, but he that does the will of God bides forever.)




1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.



2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Inquisitor]

Chat GPT????

I see.

There is the Father.
The Son.
And, the pre-programmed Robot.

You are lost in space...

Junior posted the info below.

If you're looking for more direct instruction on endurance and not falling away, passages like:

• Hebrews 3:14 – “For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.”
• Matthew 24:13 – “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
• Revelation 2:10 – “Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

So these verses do not support faithfulness and endurance?

 

[Inquisitor]

Junior needs more input.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us...”​

—1 John 2:19​

"But for the one who truly loves Christ, who stumbles yet rises again, who clings to Him—there is no condemnation. Christ will hold you fast."


Two key mistakes here, which is very apparent by reading the quoted chapter, 1 John 2.

Two examples are given by junior with this quote, to attempt to assume that the ones who are never truly in the faith simply depart from the ones who are in the faith, and then assessing the faithful ones as stumbling, and rising again, avoiding condemnation, claiming Christ still holds onto those ones.

That is a well known claim by this world of deceit.

But looking at the actual words of light, will clear all of that darkness away.

If one thinks they are in the light, ( of Christ, as the true light now shined. 1 John 2:8.) and instead of loving their brother, they hate them working unrighteousness against them, they are in darkness until now.

If a person loves their brother, ( and the love of Christ is shed into their heart by the Holy Ghost given unto them, giving them hope. Romans 5:5) they abide in the light, not leave it, and as we understand they have no reason to stumble, expressed by the ones who hate their brother, having no belief in Christ, no love of God given into their heart, no Holy Spirit in them, ( no Spirit of truth in the antichrist who is a liar denying Christ.) they are in darkness and walk in darkness, with blind eyes.


1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


Here is more scripture why the wicked stumble..


Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.



Back on 1 John 2.


The wicked in their lust, pass away with the world, but the ones who do the will of God abide forever. ( he that loves his brother bides in the light, with no occasion of stumbling in him/the true light shines in him/ if any man walks in the day he stumbles not, seeing the light of this world/ Christ is the light come into the world.)


1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.




1 John 2 and we heard of the antichrist coming, many of them who are now made manifest because of not having ability to acknowledge the truth, ( 2 Timothy 2:25, Titus 1:1.) but only denying it. ( false prophet/false teachers.) They have some sort of godliness, always learning, resisting the truth, their folly is manifested to all men. ( many follow their subtle ways, turning the grace of God into lust/ the world passes away and its lust, but he that does the will of God bides forever.)




1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.



2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

But do you believe from the scripture that someone can fall away?

You quoted the following verse.

2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

We may be reading the verse above differently.

The word, "power", in my understanding is the power of the Holy Spirit.

All the ministries and gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians.

Do you obey the Lord's commandment in 1 Corinthians 14?

 

[Thomas2]

John 4:21-22
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The whole world had access to salvation and sharing in the blessings and promises made to Abraham, but only through entry into Israel by becoming a Jew. Replacement theology has many professing believers teaching and following other false doctrines opposed to this fact. It wasn't until Israel had fallen that:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Why?

Ephesians 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Many have read these passages from their replacement theology vantagepoint, then swept them under the rug so that they're not in view as opposing texts and contexts that are contrary to their

Hebrews was written to the...Hebrews. not to the Gentiles. James wrote to the...Hebrews, to the scattered tribes of Israel, not to Gentiles.

Replacement theology has so many people believing so many evil and wicked things. In relation to those of us who are of Israel, Gentiles were adopted, which is a far better cry than the claim for being "spiritual Israel..." whatever that means. My adopted children are not my spiritual children, they are mine as if they were of my flesh. To think of them only in a distant manner as spiritual children of mine...no. They are so much more to me.

MM

"In relation to those of us who are of Israel, Gentiles were adopted, which is a far better cry than the claim for being "spiritual Israel..." whatever that means. My adopted children are not my spiritual children, they are mine as if they were of my flesh. To think of them only in a distant manner as spiritual children of mine...no. They are so much more to me."



If a person knows what something means, they can claim that something is better or worse, but if they say they do not understand what something means, it would be presumptuous ( 2 Peter 2:10.) to state their position is better than someone's they cant see.

The correct way would be to ask, what do you mean first, before talking about it yourself.

An opinion about spiritual children being something distant, has not answered what Spiritual Israel is.

Scripture always tells everything, and tells everything better than a persons opinion, talking their own words and not scripture.

The word of God does as God intended it to do, and the seed of Abraham are not all children, ( not counted as children by God) as the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but God counts the children of the promise for the seed. ( in Isaac His seed would be called.)

The word of promise as believed by Abraham, is God coming at that time and causing Sarah to have a son, which is the purpose of God, His election, His calling who calls us through HIs Son Jesus Christ.

It was said that in Isaac the seed is called, and Abraham by faith was tried and offered up his only begotten son, paving the way for belief in Christ, as Abraham accounted that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead. ( receiving him in a figure.)

Then there are two, ones of the flesh and ones of the free. ( who was by promise/at this time God will come.) and the ones of the flesh of the Jerusalem which is now of the earth, are in bondage, but they who are of Jerusalem from above ( Christ came from above.) are free, ( from bondage to the flesh/sin) and rejoice, as the one who was barren ( Sarah/the free, the Spirit) has many more children than the one who has a husband. ( Agar/ of the flesh.)

The ones of the flesh persecute the ones of the Spirit, but the scripture says cast out the bondwoman and her son ( those of the flesh)
for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

We are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. ( Spiritual Israel was always the one chosen by God, and those of the flesh never were.)


Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Inquisitor]

Chat GPT????

I see.

There is the Father.
The Son.
And, the pre-programmed Robot.

You are lost in space...

Chat GPT is the robot in lost in space.

Warming Doctor Smith!

 

[Thomas2]

But do you believe from the scripture that someone can fall away?

You quoted the following verse.

2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

We may be reading the verse above differently.

The word, "power", in my understanding is the power of the Holy Spirit.

All the ministries and gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians.

Do you obey the Lord's commandment in 1 Corinthians 14?

There are other verses around 2 Timothy 3:5, so it cant be read differently.

First though, it may help to see how Romans begins, concerning the Son of God Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, declared to be the Son of God with power, the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead. ( to be believed and confessed, which the antichrist spirit denies that Christ is come in the flesh and declared to be the Son of God with power.) and by Christ we receive grace for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His name, ( saved by calling on the name of the Lord.) among whom we are the called of Jesus Christ. ( He calls His own sheep y name. John 10:3.)


Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ.



Back on 2 Timothy 3, and those antichrists have a form of godliness, who also resist the truth.

Every Spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, every spirit that confesses not/denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, is the spirit of antichrist, that is the many deceivers entered into the world, ( these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds.) who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. (Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power/having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.)



2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.


1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Thomas2]

Chat GPT is the robot in lost in space.

Warming Doctor Smith!

Ephesians 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

 

[Thomas2]

More for the power, and the denying of the power, as told here.. 2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but DENYING THE POWER thereof: from such turn away.



Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Colossians 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 

[Musicmaster]

"In relation to those of us who are of Israel, Gentiles were adopted, which is a far better cry than the claim for being "spiritual Israel..." whatever that means. My adopted children are not my spiritual children, they are mine as if they were of my flesh. To think of them only in a distant manner as spiritual children of mine...no. They are so much more to me."



If a person knows what something means, they can claim that something is better or worse, but if they say they do not understand what something means, it would be presumptuous ( 2 Peter 2:10.) to state their position is better than someone's they cant see.

The correct way would be to ask, what do you mean first, before talking about it yourself.

An opinion about spiritual children being something distant, has not answered what Spiritual Israel is.

Scripture always tells everything, and tells everything better than a persons opinion, talking their own words and not scripture.

The word of God does as God intended it to do, and the seed of Abraham are not all children, ( not counted as children by God) as the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but God counts the children of the promise for the seed. ( in Isaac His seed would be called.)

The word of promise as believed by Abraham, is God coming at that time and causing Sarah to have a son, which is the purpose of God, His election, His calling who calls us through HIs Son Jesus Christ.

It was said that in Isaac the seed is called, and Abraham by faith was tried and offered up his only begotten son, paving the way for belief in Christ, as Abraham accounted that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead. ( receiving him in a figure.)

Then there are two, ones of the flesh and ones of the free. ( who was by promise/at this time God will come.) and the ones of the flesh of the Jerusalem which is now of the earth, are in bondage, but they who are of Jerusalem from above ( Christ came from above.) are free, ( from bondage to the flesh/sin) and rejoice, as the one who was barren ( Sarah/the free, the Spirit) has many more children than the one who has a husband. ( Agar/ of the flesh.)

The ones of the flesh persecute the ones of the Spirit, but the scripture says cast out the bondwoman and her son ( those of the flesh)
for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

We are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. ( Spiritual Israel was always the one chosen by God, and those of the flesh never were.)


Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Conversation, being a two way street, is a matter of addressing directly what others have said, and also giving of one's thoughts that may or may not mesh with the other. It's just conversation, not assuming anything into the beliefs of the other. It's my hope that we can converse without anyone assuming what is not at all the truth.

As for adoption versus the cliché festival surrounding much of what's called "spiritual children" in the sense of replacement theology, that was my aim, not to say that the spiritual was not at all the target of my comments. I'm not saying you personally have adopted the elements of replacement theology, but various rudiments of that horrid theological basis has infiltrated so much of modern, Western thinking. When one grows up with it, the dichotomies are harder to recognize.

Romans 9:2-5
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Small nuances are so easily missed...though small in wording, but with great meaning of a profound nature to others; small and insignificant to the non-Jew, but of massive implication and grounding to the Israelite, especially those of us who are in Christ Jesus. Non-Jews generally cannot experience the sense of affinity with Paul as do we.

Romans 8:15, 23
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. ...
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We of faithful Israel also seek the fulfillment of that adoption by the redemption of our bodies...some moreso than others when living with the pains and weaknesses of the present flesh.

This is a complex topic that could take tomes of volumes to explore and spell out in detail. I'm content with we of Israel being one with our Gentile brothers and sisters in Christ, unified into a singular body the Lord is not going to leave on this earth to suffer yet again the wrath of God. He shall redeem all of us who are still alive in that day of His coming for us, to receive us up with the dead in Him, all meeting Him in the clouds, which is one of the mysteries revealed ONLY to Paul at the first, never to any prophet in the past.

Generally speaking, it's sad that there are so many who downplay, and even berate Paul, for his message given to him by the Lord of Glory, referring to him with very denial for his office and role in his service unto the Lord toward us today, and thus claiming his gospel was the same in every respect as that of Peter addressed only to Israel, when in fact it is not.

Many folks out there are going to believe whatever they want regardless of what scripture declares to the contrary. It is what it is.

MM

 

[Inquisitor]

More for the power, and the denying of the power, as told here.. 2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but DENYING THE POWER thereof: from such turn away.



Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Colossians 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Your on track but you have not reached the point of recognizing the power that works within us.

We live a pure spiritual life as a Christian and that limitless power within, grants us the gifts of
the Holy Spirit. As Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 14.

37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

Do you agree that we have been given the Lord's commandment in 1 Corinthians 14?

Or do you deny the Lord's commandment in 1 Corinthians 14?

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;