Loss of salvation???

[GWH]

Yes. Paul talked about that, as you likely know. Israel will be restored after the Second Coming of Christ. The ten Virgins and other parables Jesus spoke about have nothing whatsoever to do with Gentiles in general, and yet false teachers of about every stripe of Protestantism and Evangelicalism continue to parrot the same old pig slop of replacement theology trash, thus showing their abject ignorance.

MM

Yes, Paul discussed that in the following pericopes:

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason salvation/election (s/e) was offered to Gentiles,
and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

 

[GWH]

Yes. Paul talked about that, as you likely know. Israel will be restored after the Second Coming of Christ. The ten Virgins and other parables Jesus spoke about have nothing whatsoever to do with Gentiles in general, and yet false teachers of about every stripe of Protestantism and Evangelicalism continue to parrot the same old pig slop of replacement theology trash, thus showing their abject ignorance.

MM

Yes, Paul discussed that in the following pericopes:

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason salvation/election (s/e) was offered to Gentiles,
and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

 

[Ouch]

Transference arrogance is a real thing.


Arrogance is the antithesis of grace, the total blindness to the grace of GOD.

Some deception going on here!!

If your going to quote me you really should mention it wasn't ME JUDGING OR SENDING PEOPLE TO HELL it was JESUS.

Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Have YOU received the Holy Ghost you have believed?

How were you baptized?

Acts 19
King James Version
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[Kroogz]

Some deception going on here!!

Transference arrogance is a real thing.


Arrogance is the antithesis of grace, the total blindness to the grace of GOD.

 

[Ouch]

Transference arrogance is a real thing.


Arrogance is the antithesis of grace, the total blindness to the grace of GOD.

So nothing at all about YOU deceiving people?

Just in the seed business not all will accept his word.

You can see what happens to those who think they are saved and may have even worked for him his whole life.

John 3:5
King James Version
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

HEAVEN OR HELL YOUR CHOICE.

 

[Kroogz]

You can see what happens to those who think they are saved and may have even worked for him his whole life.

Yes. Yes I can.

 

[posthuman]

According to you maybe? I don't have a clue just hope the seeds I planted grow. The list I shared that is not bible is a long one.

Looking at his word there are a lot of fokes who THINKS they are reborn and ARE NOT!!!

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version



21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That is why I ask questions? Like have you received the Holy Ghost since you have believed?

How were you baptized?

Not many people bother to even answer? Wonder why?

as previously discussed, Matthew 7:21-23 describes people who thought their works would save them.

even amazing works, like the sign to unbelievers of spealing in tongues.

even righteous works of obedience, like being baptized.

they had no faith in Christ to save them - their faith was in what they themselves did.

 

[posthuman]

as previously discussed, Matthew 7:21-23 describes people who thought their works would save them.

even amazing works, like the sign to unbelievers of spealing in tongues.

even righteous works of obedience, like being baptized.

they had no faith in Christ to save them - their faith was in what they themselves did.

@Ouch looking back at this conversation, what have you boasted in?

the work of God or the things you have done?

and what have you demanded of others?
((others who all have the Spirit, have been reborn, and also baptized with water, btw))

that they do works of their own, and boast of them?
or that they believe in the work of God?

i have been content, and remain so.

 

[posthuman]

@Ouch

some human convinced you your child-like faith in Christ's work was worthless.
and convinced you your obedient baptism was worthless.

he convinced you you should go and preach to believers that their faith was worthless, their obedient baptism and their good conscience toward God were all worthless, and that they needed to seek material signs and wonders.


i disagree with that man.

 

[Ouch]

as previously discussed, Matthew 7:21-23 describes people who thought their works would save them.

even amazing works, like the sign to unbelievers of spealing in tongues.

even righteous works of obedience, like being baptized.

they had no faith in Christ to save them - their faith was in what they themselves did.

Are you humble? Not like you I will share SCRIPTURE PROVING YOU WRONG are you humble?

JESUS CAN ONLY USE THE HUMBLE.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Your saying they were missing faith?

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not (((prophesied))) in thy name? and in thy name have (((cast out devils)))? and in thy name done many (((wonderful works)))?

You don't think they had FAITH??? What about what they were doing which REQUIRED FATIH.

This is what GOD says we have to do to be saved GOD NOT YOU.

Matthew 18:19-20
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.He tells

Acts 2:38-41
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

If you notice AFTER they had faith in what Peter said and OBEYED what he said to do THEY WERE SAVED.

You said this,
"like the sign to unbelievers of spealing in tongues"

Peter ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST SAID, when you get it this happens.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

WHO'S NOT TELLING THE TRUTH???

You said,
"even righteous works of obedience, like being baptized"

WHEN was the three thousand souls ADDED? Yea AFTER being baptized!!

When someone is being baptized in JESUS name who is doing the work?
1. The person who is obeying?
2. The JESUS disciple DOING HIS JOB, I would say he is following what JESUS told him to do. Storing treasures in Heaven.
3. OR was it JESUS working as it's HIM that fills us with the Holy Ghost?

WHO IS WORKING?

James 2:14-26 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? (((can faith save him)))?

CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?

So to you people who have faith will be saved, but people who OBEY and get baptized in JESUS name for remission of sins and JESUS fills them with the Holy Ghost will go to Hell.

I have asked you this MANY TIMES, ANSWER IT.

HAVE YOU BEEN FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YOU HAVE BELIEVED?

ACCORDING TO JESUS CAN'T ENTER WITHOUT IT!!!

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

YOUR CALL, YOUR CHOICE.

 

[Ouch]

@Ouch looking back at this conversation, what have you boasted in?

the work of God or the things you have done?

and what have you demanded of others?
((others who all have the Spirit, have been reborn, and also baptized with water, btw))

that they do works of their own, and boast of them?
or that they believe in the work of God?

i have been content, and remain so.

I don't bost or speak of myself DID I DIE FOR YOU?

I don't demand anything from others its called free will.

HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YOU HAVE BELEIVED?

I call Paul a doctor, he asked a question and sees the problem!!

AND fixes the problem of course THEY WERE HUMBLE AND SEEKING!

DO YOU PAY ANY ATTENTION AT ALL TO HIS DISCIPLES?? ANY???

Acts 19
King James Version
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

JESUS IS THE WORD, ALL OF IT DO YOU PAY ANY ATTENTION TO HIM???

HAVE YOU???? HOW WERE YOU BAPTIZED????

 

[posthuman]

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not (((prophesied))) in thy name? and in thy name have (((cast out devils)))? and in thy name done many (((wonderful works)))?

You don't think they had FAITH??? What about what they were doing which REQUIRED FATIH.

Matthew 10:1-4​

And when He had called His twelve disciples to [Him,] He gave them power [over] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the [son] of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.​

Judas did all these works.

John 6:64​

But there are some of you who do not believe. ​

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.​

 

[posthuman]

You said this,
"like the sign to unbelievers of spealing in tongues"

1 Corinthians 14:22​

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.​

 

[posthuman]

CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?

Ephesians 2:8-9​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.​

 

[posthuman]

HOW WERE YOU BAPTIZED????

happily

 

[Mem]

Transference arrogance is a real thing.


Arrogance is the antithesis of grace, the total blindness to the grace of GOD.

I left my last visit with the subject of the of the distinction between natural Israel and spiritual Israel in mind, and its sort of hung with me in a consider of the entire scope of the possible answers, with peculiar note of the phrasing, "not all Israel is spiritual Israel" and a special note of the descriptive "all," which I have bolded.

And the thought occurred to me that there are Jews that identify as Israel with a cultural equivalence as another professing, "I am white." or, "I'm Asian." That is, they don't necessarily have any degree of faith in any particular God. Even if they identify in a tradition with the 'right' God, they don't particularly "know" Him at all. And on the other hand, there are Jews that identify as Israel, as God's chosen people, but not without also a faith in that God. The group as a whole undoubtedly qualify within the category of natural Isreal but might the latter qualify as 'spiritual Isreal,' albeit 'blind in part"? So, I have to consider the possibility that this is what the referred verse might be saying as I ask, "Are secular jews that are 'blind in part'? or are they completely blind? or is everyone that has yet to recognize Jesus "blind in part" or completely blind? Then it occurred to me that the same phenomenon is also found within the Christian identity as within the Jewish context. For example, are Calvinist's 'blind in part'? or are they completely blind? Calm down (un)Calvies, I'm just using an example for the sake of argument.

Anyway, I cannot conclusively rule out this possibility of a validity of a conclusion, that we (within the qualifying segment of "all" Israel (of those that are not all-natural Israel but) that are of (spiritual) Isreal are also partially blinded until the fullness comes in, if some are not entirely blind that is.

Seeing through a glass darkly

 

[Musicmaster]

You continue to tell me I'm wrong with your mouth but never scripture and it's me
ignorant.

Why am I ignorant because i believe JESUS more that I believe YOU?

Show me where faith get rid of your sins.

Show me where faith fills you with his spirit like he did HIS disciples in Acts 2:4.

I gave to you scripture many times that you ignored entirely with your tirade going onward unabated.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I left my last visit with the subject of the of the distinction between natural Israel and spiritual Israel in mind, and its sort of hung with me in a consider of the entire scope of the possible answers, with peculiar note of the phrasing, "not all Israel is spiritual Israel" and a special note of the descriptive "all," which I have bolded.

And the thought occurred to me that there are Jews that identify as Israel with a cultural equivalence as another professing, "I am white." or, "I'm Asian." That is, they don't necessarily have any degree of faith in any particular God. Even if they identify in a tradition with the 'right' God, they don't particularly "know" Him at all. And on the other hand, there are Jews that identify as Israel, as God's chosen people, but not without also a faith in that God. The group as a whole undoubtedly qualify within the category of natural Isreal but might the latter qualify as 'spiritual Isreal,' albeit 'blind in part"? So, I have to consider the possibility that this is what the referred verse might be saying as I ask, "Are secular jews that are 'blind in part'? or are they completely blind? or is everyone that has yet to recognize Jesus "blind in part" or completely blind? Then it occurred to me that the same phenomenon is also found within the Christian identity as within the Jewish context. For example, are Calvinist's 'blind in part'? or are they completely blind? Calm down (un)Calvies, I'm just using an example for the sake of argument.

Anyway, I cannot conclusively rule out this possibility of a validity of a conclusion, that we (within the qualifying segment of "all" Israel (of those that are not all-natural Israel but) that are of (spiritual) Isreal are also partially blinded until the fullness comes in, if some are not entirely blind that is.

Seeing through a glass darkly

Spiritual Israel? What does that even mean, may I ask? My experience with that in modern jargon has shown to me that it's more of a cliche' than anything else.

MM

 

[Pilgrimshope]

of course not, nor would speaking of sabbaths be out of place.

but wouldn't you also have concern something is missing if someone could not carry the subject further than saying, 'you must observe sabbath or else?'

Yeah I would because the sabbath is a command of the law of Moses and not of the gospel and there’s doctrine regarding it in the nt epistles .

and again my position about baptism was is not that we should say “ if anyone doesn’t get baptized they are damned “ < that’s not something you have or would ever hear me say because ( in my own view ) it’s opposed to the operation of faith, and it’s not found in the doctrine.

imagine Jesus said this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one can see here that they if I don’t believe the gospel baptism isn’t even in the equation. It would really be just getting wet if I don’t believe the gospel wouldnt save anyone . would be more likely to drown a man that wash away his sins because he doesn’t believe the gospel .

The only value it has is to a believer of the gospel not because anyone tells them “ if you don’t get baptized you’ll not be accepted “ but because they hear what God actually did say about baptism ultimately it’s about union and inclusion with Christ Jesus but not about exclusion from him or condemnation by him in any way

baptism is a blessing it goes only that way it has no part in the curse of non believers

I believe if we just share what’s there about the subjects we discuss a lot better information would come forth

baptism isn’t how we are saved belief is how we are saved belief of the truth. The actions come when we start believing the truth they come of faith as we hear his word

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


awe shouldn’t say baptism isn’t important or doesn’t mean what God said but also we shouldn’t add to what he said about it like “ anyone who believes the gospel but never got baptized is doomed “ that’s not in my opinion in line with faith at all . But my opinion is just that

 

[Musicmaster]

HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YOU HAVE BELEIVED?

Believing is the means by which we receive salvation and Holy Spirit.

Some Charismatic groups believe otherwise, but their beliefs are of no consequence.

MM