Loss of salvation???

[Roger316]

The Bible teaches that all people, whether believers or not are obligated to


I DID state that doing good works is good even for the unsaved BUT FOR OTHER PERSONS...
NOT for God.

These people are following the law of the land and/or social constructs.

They are NOT following GOD.

Only those that believe God exists and they RECEIVE HIS WORD are required to obey Him.

I don't know how this is relevant to our obligation, as human beings, to obey God. Nothing you said here disproves what I said.

Are you saying we could be saved sans being a disciple of Jesus??
Salvation and discipleship go hand in hand.

Yes, as God said, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." Whom to save is his choice, not ours.

We'll have to disagree on that.

Sorry, I wasted your time.

Jesus is warning that we MUST continue in His word.

If you find that idea in the text you are bringing it to the text.

I believe John 12 makes that very clear....
we must RECEIVE Jesus' word.

Again, Jesus doesn't say anything about what we MUST do.

Another member posted a passage that has both a descriptive and prescriptive statement in it....by Paul.
Here it is:
1 Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, DESCRIPTIVE

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— DESCRIPTIVE

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, PRESCRIPTIVE
The word IF creates a condition.

IF we do verse 23,,,,,the condition,
then verse 22 will happen.

The active verb is to be reconciled, which is something Jesus did. We had nothing to do with it.

 

[Roger316]

I don't care too much for language lessons.
I care about what the NT teaches.
I care about what Jesus taught

We can't know what the Bible teaches without understanding the language. You would do well to consider what we are saying.

This is what Jesus taught:


John 12:47-48
47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

This is another conditional without contingency. He first states the condition: someone does not do what I teach, then he specifies what will happen to them. He is NOT saying that some of YOU might not obey my teachings. You are reading that into the text.

Let's read again:

Ephesians 2:8.9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


We are saved BY FAITH.

No, we are save by grace through faith ,,,

IF we lose faith in God...we will no longer be saved since it's faith that saves.

That's not how it works. What you propose is not real. There is no such thing as a person, in the midst of being saved by God, who will lose faith. That is impossible.

I posted some scripture above that supports my statement that salvation can be lost.

Where?

There are many more if needed.

9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes sir....no amount of works will save us WITHOUT FAITH....
Because it is FAITH THAT SAVES.

Faith doesn't save. God saves.

But let's look also at verse 10 which many do not care for:

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


We are created for good works...which is exactly what Jesus taught.

Don't skip the part where he says, "created in Christ Jesus."
Don't skip the part where he says that the works we do were prepared beforehand.
If my salvation relies on my resiliency and faith, then I am creating myself for good works.

In John 12:48 Jesus stated that if we do not receive His words...we will be under judgement.



Your scripture:

1 Peter 1:3-9

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


You left out the beginning verses,
so let's post all of it and go through it.
Comments will be in green.

1 Peter 1:1-9
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

We are saved through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. Sanctifying means the action is ongoing.
We are to obey Christ.

So we are not saved by faith, then? Good catch. We are saved by the Holy Spirit's sanctifying work. I get that.

The imperishable inheritance is our future life in heaven.

And the Holy Sprit is given to us as an earnest of our inheritance. Ephesians 1, and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts, in the form of the Holy Spirit, Romans 5, who guarantees our salvation.

5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Protected from what?

What is the proof of our faith if not obedience to Jesus....receiving His word, as He stated in John 12....
Doing the will of the Father in Matthew 7....

You seem to have misunderstood and lost Peter's point. He is talking about trials of faith. And his point is that if we face trials of faith and we endure, then we know that WE WILL NEVER FALL AWAY. That is why the trials are as precious as gold. They tell us something true about ourselves, namely, the resilience of our faith is unshakable, and we will never fall away.

This glory and honor will be revealed at the end of everything...our resurrection.

8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

We must BELIEVE IN JESUS.
Follow His teachings/be His disciples.

Incomplete. Not only must we believe in Jesus, but if our faith endures the trial, it has been proven to be unshakeable. Anyone who has gone through such trials knows what I mean.

9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Please note: The OUTCOME of our FAITH will be the salvation of our souls.

All the writers of the NT believed faith msut be ongoing and present at the end of our life.

But you missed Peter's point, which Paul and James also teach. Trials of faith are a gift of God, who wants us to know that our faith will never fail. He does this by testing us, not for his sake, but for ours.

 

[HeIsHere]

We can't know what the Bible teaches without understanding the language. You would do well to consider what we are saying.



This is another conditional without contingency. He first states the condition: someone does not do what I teach, then he specifies what will happen to them. He is NOT saying that some of YOU might not obey my teachings. You are reading that into the text.

No, we are save by grace through faith ,,,

That's not how it works. What you propose is not real. There is no such thing as a person, in the midst of being saved by God, who will lose faith. That is impossible.

Where?


Faith doesn't save. God saves.

Don't skip the part where he says, "created in Christ Jesus."
Don't skip the part where he says that the works we do were prepared beforehand.
If my salvation relies on my resiliency and faith, then I am creating myself for good works.


So we are not saved by faith, then? Good catch. We are saved by the Holy Spirit's sanctifying work. I get that.

And the Holy Sprit is given to us as an earnest of our inheritance. Ephesians 1, and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts, in the form of the Holy Spirit, Romans 5, who guarantees our salvation.

Protected from what?

You seem to have misunderstood and lost Peter's point. He is talking about trials of faith. And his point is that if we face trials of faith and we endure, then we know that WE WILL NEVER FALL AWAY. That is why the trials are as precious as gold. They tell us something true about ourselves, namely, the resilience of our faith is unshakable, and we will never fall away.

Incomplete. Not only must we believe in Jesus, but if our faith endures the trial, it has been proven to be unshakeable. Anyone who has gone through such trials knows what I mean.

But you missed Peter's point, which Paul and James also teach. Trials of faith are a gift of God, who wants us to know that our faith will never fail. He does this by testing us, not for his sake, but for ours.

They will always be those who find verses here and there, pluck them out of context or assert that one word like "if" can change the consistent message of the Good News of Christ Jesus >>> saved is saved.

I just wonder what these people are trusting Jesus for? It does not seem to be salvation.

 

[Toknow]

I don't know how this is relevant to our obligation, as human beings, to obey God. Nothing you said here disproves what I said.

Yes, as God said, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." Whom to save is his choice, not ours.

Romans 9 is referring to the Israelites.
Usually calvinist believers refer to Romans 9.

God will have mercy upon whom He has mercy.

So are you saying God has no conditions for salvation?

it's HIS choice who gets saved and who does not?

John 3:16 is irrelevant as a condition?

Sorry, I wasted your time.

If you find that idea in the text you are bringing it to the text.

I bring nothing to texts.
I just post them.

Again, Jesus doesn't say anything about what we MUST do.

Jesus say nothing about what we must do?

How about this:


Matthew 25:34-46
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I would also remind us of the parable of the Good Samaritan...
Luke 10:30-37
30Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. 31“And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32“Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33“But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, 34and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35“On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ 36“Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”
Jesus said. GO AND DO THE SAME.

jesus gave many instructions.

The active verb is to be reconciled, which is something Jesus did. We had nothing to do with it.

What active verb?
It's that tiny IF word that some just do not like.
Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast,


IF we continue in the faith......verse 23

Verse 22 will happen....we will be presented holy and blameless to God.


IF I send you 100$,,,,will you accept it?

Am I sending you 100$ ??

 

[Toknow]

We can't know what the Bible teaches without understanding the language. You would do well to consider what we are saying.

Only those that know Greek can know what scripture states?
Is this what you're saying?

You don't trust the New Testament?

This is another conditional without contingency. He first states the condition: someone does not do what I teach, then he specifies what will happen to them. He is NOT saying that some of YOU might not obey my teachings. You are reading that into the text.

Agreed.

Jesus is stating that if we do not obey Him...
something will happen to us.

If we obey......we are lawful. Matthew 7
If we do NOT obey....we are lawless. Matthew 7


Matthew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
To be lawless is to not obey the Law.
What Law?
The Law of Christ.
The obedience of faith.

Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

No, we are save by grace through faith ,,,

What did I say?
I just posted Ephesians 2:8 (or perhaps I forgot to)
We are saved by §God's grace,
through our faith.

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith;...
It is through our faith that God saves us by His grace.

That's not how it works. What you propose is not real. There is no such thing as a person, in the midst of being saved by God, who will lose faith. That is impossible.

We can lose our salvation at any point....
When we became saved we did not lose our free will.
Jesus said we could lose our salvation:
Luke 8:13
. 13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Jesus said they believe for a while...
and then fall away.


Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.
The Prodigal son came to life AGAIN.
This means he was:
SAVED
LOST
SAVED AGAIN


Matthew 5:13
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
The salt HAS BECOME tasteless.
It is no longer good for anything since it lost its taste - that it used to have.

Where?

You missed my scripture about becoming lost?
See just above, I posted what Jesus taught.

Faith doesn't save. God saves.

So Ephesians 2:8 is incorrect?
It states that God savedsthrough our faith.
You believe God can save someone that does NOT have faith in Him?

Don't skip the part where he says, "created in Christ Jesus."
Don't skip the part where he says that the works we do were prepared beforehand.
If my salvation relies on my resiliency and faith, then I am creating myself for good works.

Saved persons are created for good works.
Everything we do we do IN JESUS.
God has a plan.
What does this have to do with our obedience to Him?

So we are not saved by faith, then? Good catch. We are saved by the Holy Spirit's sanctifying work. I get that.

Sanctifying work is ongoing.
Maybe you didn't catch the point of the verses.

We are saved by faith....
that faith must be present at our death.

Sanctification is ongoing and helped with by the Holy Spirit , as jesus promised before He ascended.


John 16:7
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.



John 14:26
26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And the Holy Sprit is given to us as an earnest of our inheritance. Ephesians 1, and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts, in the form of the Holy Spirit, Romans 5, who guarantees our salvation.

Romans 5 guarantees our salvation?
The same Paul that warned us not to FALL AWAY from our faith?
And the earnest is the seal.
The seal is baptism.
This can be learned by knowing early church history.
Baptism was known as the seal.

Protected from what?

Roger...
you don't know from what God protects us?

Here it is again:

1 Peter 1:5
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are protected BY FAITH for our salvation at the end of time.

Protected from satan, sinful lives, disobedience, etc.

But BY OUR FAITH.

No faith
No salvation

You seem to have misunderstood and lost Peter's point. He is talking about trials of faith. And his point is that if we face trials of faith and we endure, then we know that WE WILL NEVER FALL AWAY.

You just said that IF WE ENDURE...then we know sthat we will never fall away.

Please read what you just said.

We will NOT KNOW IF we endured....
until the end of our life.

We cannot know NOW that we will never have fallen away in the future.

That is why the trials are as precious as gold. They tell us something true about ourselves, namely, the resilience of our faith is unshakable, and we will never fall away.

Incomplete. Not only must we believe in Jesus, but if our faith endures the trial, it has been proven to be unshakeable. Anyone who has gone through such trials knows what I mean.

Wow. You have a problem with TIME.
You cannot know the future now.

But you missed Peter's point, which Paul and James also teach. Trials of faith are a gift of God, who wants us to know that our faith will never fail. He does this by testing us, not for his sake, but for ours.

Please post some scripture to support the fact that salvation cannot be lost.

 

[HeIsHere]

John 6:40~~For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

The loss of salvation crowd makes the verse say "might have eternal life and might get raised up."

I am thinking best to not engage and give a platform to such a heinous false doctrine.

They make Christ necessary but not sufficient.

Those of us who are saved know we are secure because the Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit, that the Good News of Christ Jesus is saved is saved.. the entire NT testifies to this reality and truth.

 

[Roger316]

Only those that know Greek can know what scripture states?
Is this what you're saying?

You don't trust the New Testament?

I trust what the New Testament means. To find out what the author meant, we sometimes need to look at the text in its original language. You ask as if you are not aware of this reality. Do you always accept the translation as written?

In fact, I trust the translators most of the time. After all, they are scholars and they know the Greek better than I do. But I have also produced my own translations, simply as a form of Bible study, and I have learned the pitfalls and hazards of translation. There are some verses where the translation is ambiguous or uncertain, and in these cases, I find it helpful to use the Greek tools and the help of other Bible teachers to help me work through the passage.

But you and I are looking at the same texts and arriving at two distinct, incompatible interpretations. What accounts for the difference? I noticed that you are adding concepts to the text that aren't there. I figured you would want to know.

Agreed.

Jesus is stating that if we do not obey Him...
something will happen to us.

Where does he say that those whom God is saving will not obey him?

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith;...
It is through our faith that God saves us by His grace.

The Grace comes first, then the faith

We can lose our salvation at any point....

If someone is in Christ, they will never fall away, as Peter has said

When we became saved we did not lose our free will.

It depends on our status before God. If we are chosen, he is not bothered by our free will choices because salvation invoves a transformation of our will' That is what it means to be Born Again."

Jesus said we could lose our salvation:
Luke 8:13
. 13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Jesus said they believe for a while...
and then fall away.

Read the entire parable. Jesus considers the unbeliever and the three believers. Out of the three believers, two fall away and one perseveres. What made the difference?

Jesus’ parable of the sower portrays God as the wise and patient farmer who takes responsibility for preparing the soil of the human heart. The seed is always good, but the difference in outcome comes from the condition of the soil—a condition God Himself tends. He breaks up the hardness, clears the thorns, and enriches the ground so that those who hear the word can endure, mature, and bear fruit. This means perseverance is not a self-generated achievement but the result of God’s prior, gracious work. We do not cultivate our own hearts; the Father does the cultivating, ensuring that His people receive the word with depth, endurance, and a harvest that reflects His faithful care.

Abiding in the vine is Jesus’ way of showing that the life, strength, and fruitfulness of a believer come entirely from His own sustaining life, not from the branch’s independent effort. Just as a branch cannot make itself alive, cannot attach itself to the vine, and cannot produce fruit by straining, so a disciple cannot generate spiritual endurance or obedience by sheer willpower. The Father is the vinedresser who tends, prunes, and protects the branches, ensuring that those who truly share the life of the Son will bear the fruit that corresponds to that life. Abiding, then, is not a precarious performance but the visible expression of an already‑given union—God’s own work of joining a person to Christ and sustaining them in Him. The fruit that appears is the inevitable outcome of His faithful care, just as the perseverance of the branch is the result of the vine’s unbroken life flowing into it.

So Ephesians 2:8 is incorrect?
It states that God saveds through our faith.
You believe God can save someone that does NOT have faith in Him?

Yes, of course. He does it all the time. Remember the account of Nicodemus? Jesus explicitly states that Nicodemus's ability to recognize the kingdom of God was to be an act of the Holy Spirit. Only when the Holy Spirit opened his eyes could Nicodemus see, and understand what message the miracles were meant to convey.

Now, when Paul says we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH what does he mean? The New Testament uses “by” and “through” to mark two different layers of agency, especially when describing how God works in salvation, sanctification, and mission. The distinction is subtle in English but consistent in the Greek patterns behind it. The key idea is that “by” usually points to the ultimate agent, while “through” points to the instrument or means that the ultimate agent uses.

• By God — identifies the source, the one who initiates and empowers the action.
  
  • Example: “By grace you have been saved” (Eph 2:8). Grace is the source; God is the primary actor.
• Through Christ — identifies the mediating agent, the channel or means by which God accomplishes His work.
  
  • Example: “Through Him we have access to the Father” (Rom 5:2). Christ is the mediator of what the Father gives.
• Through the Spirit — identifies the empowering presence who applies God’s work to the believer.
  
  • Example: “If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body…” (Rom 8:13). The Spirit is the means by which God enables obedience.

---

So when Scripture says something happens “by God”, it means God is the origin of the action.
When it says something happens “through Christ” or “through the Spirit”, it means God is acting by means of Christ or the Spirit.

Saved persons are created for good works.

Right, they were created.

Sanctifying work is ongoing.
Maybe you didn't catch the point of the verses.

So you must agree, then, that those whom God is saving can never fall away.

Romans 5 guarantees our salvation?

Yes. It's a simple matter of logic: IF A then B. If our faith is tested and it is proven, then our hope will not disappoint.

The same Paul that warned us not to FALL AWAY from our faith?
And the earnest is the seal.
The seal is baptism.
This can be learned by knowing early church history.
Baptism was known as the seal.

More puzz;e pieces that don't belong.

Roger...
you don't know from what God protects us?

Here it is again:

1 Peter 1:5
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are protected BY FAITH for our salvation at the end of time.

You realize that you are changing it from "through faith" to "by faith", which denies the power of God and places the onus on us?

Protected from satan, sinful lives, disobedience, etc.

We are protected from being tempted beyond our ability to survive.

You just said that IF WE ENDURE...then we know sthat we will never fall away.

That's not me saying it. That is Paul, Peter, and James saying it.

We cannot know NOW that we will never have fallen away in the future.

For the chosen, whom God is saving, it is impossible for them to fall away.

Please post some scripture to support the fact that salvation cannot be lost.

Romans 5:1-5, 1 Peter 1:7, and James 1:2

 

[sawdust]

Seems simple: A bank honors a check by cashing it. To honor a request is to accept it as valid. It's synonymous with 'allow'.

Like I said, our understanding is different. You see it as simply allowing something to happen, I see it as giving respect or esteem to something. Even in the cashing of the cheque, the bank is honouring that which is legitimate. If it wasn't, they wouldn't cash it. Calling God a liar which, unbelievers are effectively doing through their unbelief, is not legitimate therefore God does not honour their will. I do not see allowing something to occur the same as giving honour to it.

A C S. Lewis quote in dealing with this issue: "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it.

They did not choose hell, God chose. I recall hearing Charles Manson saying (while in gaol), if he had his way, "we would all be dead". He did not, nor ever will, get his will done nor will all those who end up in the lake of fire see their will done. It is always, in the end, God who gets His will done and thank the Lord it is so.

I don't think we are going to agree here but I appreciate your comments.

 

[studier]

The only way scripture is consistent and can be understood correctly is to start with the BIG truth and go from there.
All words, phrases, idioms, verbiage, passages and letters are always understood from that one BIG over arching TRUTH.

What is that TRUTH you might ask... the truth is the gift of salvation, once received based on the terms God defines >>>>>> that gift is unconditional and cannot be forsaken, revoked or taken back!!!

Actually this is a description of how to eisegete Scripture beginning with an eternal security presupposition.

It's textbook begin with the truth you believe and then make all Scripture substantiate that truth.

Where did you get this?

 

[Kroogz]

I am thinking best to not engage and give a platform to such a heinous false doctrine.

Yeah, bare minimum. Any believer that wants the truth, will get it. Never perish. Imperishable seed. Eternal life. Raised with Christ. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ are very basics and easy to understand.......Us gentiles like our intellect and will let our intellect get in the way of the basics.....MILK.

They make Christ necessary but not sufficient.

Inform me. How do they make Christ necessary? The reformed/calvie/tulip theory folks think it's God soveriegnty and the Armins think it's human Sovereignty.

The FACT is, both theories do not need a Crucified Christ........God can just willy nilly save or we can just follow some rules.

 

[sawdust]

We are being saved.
It's an ongoing action.

It is a past, present and future action as you rightly stated in another post.

We are saved, past tense, having been made spiritually alive. Saved from spiritual death. This cannot be lost.
We are being saved, present tense, our souls are being transformed from one degree of glory to the next. This depends on the degree of our faith as to how glorious we end up in this life.
We will be saved, future tense, our bodies will be redeemed and made new. Saved from mortality.

 

[HeIsHere]

Actually this is a description of how to eisegete Scripture beginning with an eternal security presupposition.

It's textbook begin with the truth you believe and then make all Scripture substantiate that truth.

Where did you get this?

No presupposition, it is the plainly taught in scripture.

It is called hermeneutics.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Paul’s point in Ephesians 2:8 is that God’s saving work is not a moment you leave behind but a reality He continues to sustain. The perfect tense—“you have been saved”—anchors salvation in a completed act of God’s mercy, but the surrounding context shows that this completed act carries an ongoing, preserving force. God made us alive, raised us, and seated us with Christ, and the same God who acted decisively in the past continues to act in the present to keep us alive in Him. Salvation is not a fragile possession we maintain; it is a living condition God maintains.

Precious friend, most Excellent with A Vast Multitude Of Plain And Clear Confirming Scriptures:

Because Of God's Own All-Sufficient BLOOD, He Teaches:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

--------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yeah, bare minimum. Any believer that wants the truth, will get it. Never perish. Imperishable seed. Eternal life. Raised with Christ. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ are very basics and easy to understand.......Us gentiles like our intellect and will let our intellect get in the way of the basics.....MILK.

Inform me. How do they make Christ necessary? The reformed/calvie/tulip theory folks think it's God sovereignty and the Armins think it's human Sovereignty.

The FACT is, both theories do not need a Crucified Christ........God can just willy nilly save or we can just follow some rules.

Oh agree that in reality they nullify the completed work of Christ Jesus, in their personal words they pretend they have taken into account the crucified Christ, but much like the Calvies they will not acknowledge the final/end conclusion of their false I save myself through my obedience doctrine.

 

[HeIsHere]

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen ... the right starting point is everything.

 

[CS1]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

Very interesting question. I wonder if the answer can be accepted without doctrinal position held by the two groups?


As a minister I teach to enter into the relationship with Christ who called you and saved you. Grow in Grace and love. God has called one to come out from the world. So if one returns to the world and lives as though they did not know Christ, I guess one could ask if they ever did. Yet those who die claiming to know Christ or did not know must be left with GOD. We cannot say or know their eternal state. However, ones life does testify to what they profess. We can know them by their fruit. Matthew 7:16-20.

I do see God is actively willing and ready to receive the prodigal Luke 15:11-32.

 

[Toknow]

Very interesting question. I wonder if the answer can be accepted without doctrinal position held by the two groups?


As a minister I teach to enter into the relationship with Christ who called you and saved you. Grow in Grace and love. God has called one to come out from the world. So if one returns to the world and lives as though they did not know Christ, I guess one could ask if they ever did. Yet those who die claiming to know Christ or did not know must be left with GOD. We cannot say or know their eternal state. However, ones life does testify to what they profess. We can know them by their fruit. Matthew 7:16-20.

I do see God is actively willing and ready to receive the prodigal Luke 15:11-32.

You're a minister?

Please explain Luke 15:24

That might clear up the matter.

 

[studier]

Like I said, our understanding is different. You see it as simply allowing something to happen, I see it as giving respect or esteem to something. Even in the cashing of the cheque, the bank is honouring that which is legitimate. If it wasn't, they wouldn't cash it. Calling God a liar which, unbelievers are effectively doing through their unbelief, is not legitimate therefore God does not honour their will. I do not see allowing something to occur the same as giving honour to it.

Seems like semantics to me. The use of "honor" I've shown is legitimate English within it's range of definition and use. My sense is that our disagreement is in your phrase "giving honor" which I haven't said.

I mean 'honor' as God sovereignly permitting/respecting the reality of human choices (even sinful ones) without overriding them - leading to just judgment. If 'honor' is too positive to you, then 'permits' or 'respects the freedom of' works too."

 

[CS1]

You're a minister?

Please explain Luke 15:24

That might clear up the matter.

As you know the text is a Parable correct? And we must look at the whole chapter would you not agree?

the chapter has many Parables:

1. The Parable of the Lost Sheep​

Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders. rejoicing."

7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
lost sheep speaking about sinners

1. The Parable of the Lost Coin​

Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Lost coin speaking about sinner who repents

1. The Parable of the Lost Son​

11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. ​

14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
as we read on we see the son came to his understanding of returning to his father's house as a servant not as entitled son.
20 And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

The Lost Son:
This also is about repentance and the old Brother who was self-righteous and judgmental of his brother returning home after he repented. the two previous stories showed rejoicing for the one who found the lost sheep and the lost coin.
Jesus was admonishing who? "And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”

This is not about those who are saved and leave and return. this is about about those who are religious and self-righteous who forgot they were sinners.
Verse 24 is speaking of each one of us who was lost and was found, who was dead and made alive. That was called to be a son of God be sin separated us from GOD, Repentance restored the relationship and all should rejoice because of that.

 

[studier]

They did not choose hell, God chose. I recall hearing Charles Manson saying (while in gaol), if he had his way, "we would all be dead". He did not, nor ever will, get his will done nor will all those who end up in the lake of fire see their will done. It is always, in the end, God who gets His will done and thank the Lord it is so.

Again, what's your basic concern? Going from Lewis to Manson's fantasies seems a bit extreme. Yes, God's will ultimately prevails, but this is not contrary to permitting people to chose their eternal destiny - it is His will that they do so and He gave them the choice of life or death - of accepting Him or rejecting Him.