Making a case for women in leadership

[Aaron56]

Correct me if I am wrong but the bible has a role "Overseer", but no role of Priest in the NT. And as I see it the role of Bishop has evolved out of the unbiblical role of Priest. If we are to be biblically correct, there are zero 'intermediaries' between the Believer and God.

A priest is someone who administrates God’s current covenant. To that end, we are all, male and female, priests of God - royal priests, in fact. This is not just that we serve at the pleasure of the King, but that we are of His familial line, too.

As far as intermediaries go… there is One who is in all who believe, the Holy Spirit. This gives all in Christ the right to handle any measure of grace they are given. Now, by handling this grace wisdom is gained. Because we function as One Body, it is expected that those who operate within more grace make that grace available to others. Built into the Body is the need for each part, functioning as God intended, to work in support of the other parts.

As we mature in spiritual matters more will be given. It is expected that the mature will work to support the immature. It is also expected that the immature look to the mature for guidance. The mature, then, must give an account for those whose souls are watched over. Jesus gave an account for 12 souls. How many do you think a person, today, might be able to watched over effectively?

 

[Cameron143]

Basically I am pointing to the hypocrisy of those who criticise the election of female overseers as unbiblical, but who would defend the unbiblical practices of our "shepherds" somehow "feeding the lambs" while living like Princes in Palaces...
Personally, I am 100% confident looking Jesus in the eye and saying I accepted the administrative authority of that humble woman because I believed that the Holy Spirit was moving powerfully within her. So, help me God!

I don't believe woman should be overseers in the church, but biblically God has used women in a variety of roles outside of that. Could God raise up a woman for the task...sure, but this isn't His generally prescribed means.
As far as God providing richly for some while not for others, that's God's business. There are plenty of wealthy people in the Bible. Wealth isn't the issue: stewardship is. And each has to give an account for how well they stewarded the resources God put them over, regardless of how much or how little.

 

[Maori_Aussie]

As we mature in spiritual matters more will be given. It is expected that the mature will work to support the immature. It is also expected that the immature look to the mature for guidance. The mature, then, must give an account for those whose souls are watched over. Jesus gave an account for 12 souls. How many do you think a person, today, might be able to watched over effectively?

This thread has made me reflect on how this works in the Salvation Army. The women elected to be our Overseers are effectively business / mission managers. The cells (4-12) of fellow Believers into which Soldiers self-select are the primary pastoral carers and instruments of church discipline. The teams (4-30) of fellow Believers into which Soldiers self-select are the direct mission managers. The officers and staff of the Church are just on-call resources. But, on mission, in the field, officers Plan, Lead, Organise and Control (the traditional four roles of management).

 

[Dino246]

Correct me if I am wrong but the bible has a role "Overseer", but no role of Priest in the NT. And as I see it the role of Bishop has evolved out of the unbiblical role of Priest. If we are to be biblically correct, there are zero 'intermediaries' between the Believer and God.

We have one priest in the NT Church: Jesus Christ. “Priest” as a human role in the Church does not exist.

 

[Cameron143]

We have one priest in the NT Church: Jesus Christ. “Priest” as a human role in the Church does not exist.

What about 1 Peter 2:9? What do you make of that?

 

[Dino246]

What about 1 Peter 2:9? What do you make of that?

It is not a role in the Church in the same way that elder, deacon, pastor, and teacher are roles.

 

[Taylorj2]

We're all to spread the gospel whether men or women. Lots of service for God are open to both men and women.

The positions of authority within the church are for men though, not women. But women aren't any less because of that - they just have different function.

But Satan works hard to make women feel as if they're less to try to destroy the hierarchy God had set. But if you look at the Trinity of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, God the Father is the highest authority. You don't ever see Jesus or the Holy Spirit try to usurp the Father's position. Also, all the 2/3 of angels that remained with God remain in their position in the heirarchy as well.

Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the angels that remained - none of them have any problems with their position and not being the #1 in authority. Only women seem to have that problem with Satan making them feel inferior.

I personally don't have that problem. I'm pretty independent, but I can do the work I'm called to without feeling inferior about my place in the heirarchy.

I suppose my question to you would be why does Paul affirm certain women in ministry?

 

[Maori_Aussie]

I suppose my question to you would be why does Paul affirm certain women in ministry?

The female Apostle Junia, being Jewish, and being in Christ before Paul, may have had an established ministry when Paul first arrived in her location (Caesarea?). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junia_(New_Testament_person)

 

[Edify]

There is a HUGE difference between overseers and leaders.
Overseer means exactly as it is written, 'one who oversees, or watches over, for the sake of correct teaching, worship, & church order.
NO AUTHORITY LEADERSHIP WAS PRACTICED IN THE NT CHURCH!!
Jesus taught on servant leadership, not authority leadership.
Mark 9
35And sitting down, He called the twelve and *said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.
Matt20
25But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles domineer over them, and [o]those in high position exercise authority over them. 26It [p]is not this way among you, but whoever wants to become [q]prominent among you shall be your servant, 27and whoever desires to be first among you shall be your slave; 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His [r]life as a ransom for many.”

Jesus was an example of this by washing the disciples' feet, taking on the lowest servant in the house.
Since there's to be NO authority in church leadership, the only authority this can mean is of the Husband-Wife relationship ordained by God in Genesis.

 

[Edify]

Church tradition has managed to disable half of its body. I do wonder how powerful she'd actually be if she were restored to full function and capacity in operation.

We sure could use that now that we're in the Falling Away.

 

[Aaron56]

NO AUTHORITY LEADERSHIP WAS PRACTICED IN THE NT CHURCH!!

Edify, I often appreciate your posts and insight. You have the temperament of an elder.

I'm not sure what you mean by "authority leadership".

Authority is simply the right to function in some measure of power.
Like a police officer: the power is his gun while his authority is his badge. And with his authority comes very specific and limited rules of engagement. If he should use his power outside of those rules then he would be prosecuted for unlawful conduct.

While western laws rarely reference grace, England does. So, it is common to call a royal leader in England "your grace". This is an acknowledgment that all writs of authority are ultimately distributed by their permission: they are the source of grace from which the country functions.

In the kingdom of God, a doma gift, or gift of governance, is a specific measure of grace. Some measures of grace require others to submit to them:

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."

This is always within a close relationship and never a function of a title or seminary degree.

Paul wrote to Timothy:

"But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance..."

Timothy is not making up his own doctrine, he is following Paul.

Paul would also write to the saints in Corinth:

"Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ."

I also wrote about church structure here: Link

 

[Edify]

I'm not sure what you mean by "authority leadership

To me that means much like the modern church is, holding positions of power & using it for personal gain.

 

[Magenta]

from Matthew 20 verses 25-28 (Mark 10 verses 43-45, Luke 22 verses 26-27) ~ Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

 

[Maori_Aussie]

Peter was an overseer of the flock. It was a position of authority within the church.

I am calling out that "authority" as unbiblical. I refer to Matthew 23:8.
As I see it the overseer is a guide, who as a shepherd leads the flock by their voice, but Matthew 23:8 points to no hierarchy of Believers.

 

[Maori_Aussie]

To me that means much like the modern church is, holding positions of power & using it for personal gain.

Jesus said "Feed my sheep". Not "Fleece my sheep"...
Sadly some misheard.

 

[Blain]

I am calling out that "authority" as unbiblical. I refer to Matthew 23:8.
As I see it the overseer is a guide, who as a shepherd leads the flock by their voice, but Matthew 23:8 points to no hierarchy of Believers.

I think you made a very good point with mathew23:8 it would imply there is no position over another which also makes me wonder about the church today with pastors they are seen as above everyone else in position the head of the church in leadership but I don't see this in the NT church

yes there were teachers but no pastors or anything that I can tell

 

[Maori_Aussie]

I'm not sure what you mean by "authority leadership".

The Difference Between Authority and Leadership
https://theleadershipsphere.com.au/insights/the-difference-between-authority-and-leadership/

As I see it, Jesus was an Inspirational leader and not an Authoritative leader.
Jesus constantly downplayed his Authority until near the end of His ministry.
Jesus asked his followers to follow his example (leading).
IMHO that Inspirational style (specifically servant leadership) is what Jesus asked his followers to practice.
And sayings like Mathew 23:8 were intended to prevent his followers reaching for authority.
And regarding Mathew 18:18, I was ask readers to read the verse immediately before it, and immediately after it.
And regarding Mathew 16:19, I accept that Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom, but I don't accept that anyone else was.
I believe that Peter exercised this authority in making everything clean to eat.

 

[Cameron143]

I am calling out that "authority" as unbiblical. I refer to Matthew 23:8.
As I see it the overseer is a guide, who as a shepherd leads the flock by their voice, but Matthew 23:8 points to no hierarchy of Believers.

That verse doesn't negate church authority. Read Matthew 16:19 and Ephesians 2:20 and Ephesians 4:11. There is a hierarchy in the church.

 

[Maori_Aussie]

That verse doesn't negate church authority. Read Matthew 16:19 and Ephesians 2:20 and Ephesians 4:11. There is a hierarchy in the church.

I accept leaders, and overseers as guides, but these verses do not create a power of authority.
Otherwise, they contradict Matthew 23:8.
Jesus gave very clear lessons on servant leadership. Matthew 20:25-26.
We should not ignore those lessons, nor Matthew 23:8.

 

[Cameron143]

I accept leaders, and overseers as guides, but these verses do not create a power of authority.
Otherwise, they contradict Matthew 23:8.
Jesus gave very clear lessons on servant leadership. Matthew 20:25-26.
We should not ignore those lessons, nor Matthew 23:8.

What does it mean to have the keys to the kingdom? Keys are symbols of authority. Look at Revelation 1:18. Jesus has the keys of death and hell. What do you believe this means?