Making a case for women in leadership
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Yeah I thought it was pretty funny I was tempted to reply saying I could make a kitty cult
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For whatever its worth.... the Greek text literally translates "a one-woman man". Polygamy wasn't common in Ephesus at the time, but divorce/remarriage/adultery/fornication were all very common. Polygamists would definitely be disqualified, but I'm guessing the instruction was speaking more towards:
-Adulterers
-Men who were keeping relations within marriage but divorcing and remarrying for non-biblical reasons
-Single guys who were "playing the field"
-Just any guy in general (married or single) who was known for seeking out the romantic attention of multiple females, even if he refrained from sexual contact.
I could be wrong of course, but "one woman man" does seem to me to refer more to heart attitude than marital status..... Paul himself was single, and he oversaw much.
-Adulterers
-Men who were keeping relations within marriage but divorcing and remarrying for non-biblical reasons
-Single guys who were "playing the field"
-Just any guy in general (married or single) who was known for seeking out the romantic attention of multiple females, even if he refrained from sexual contact.
I could be wrong of course, but "one woman man" does seem to me to refer more to heart attitude than marital status..... Paul himself was single, and he oversaw much.
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Those evil wicked male Gentiles
Keep in mind that a lot of new converts were being added rapidly.... Paul knew Timothy would be fighting against ingrained mindsets and cultural norms that would wreck the church if not guarded against 😬
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Considering how common fornication and adultery are today, I think that principle should apply to anyone in marriage. I go with the traditional translation, but see your point. If a gal pulled out of her purse or have on a face book account her ex boyfriends, I'd probably laugh and walk away.
That has actually happened once, no twice. Once was Kathleen who acted like she accidentally found a picture of her old boyfriend. She showed me.
I asked her what she planned to do with it. Her response led me to tell her to throw it in the trash. What ended up happening was she ended up alone. At least she has that picture to take care of her.
Tonya was a popular lady who was in the same Animal and Veterinary program. Her parents were very nice and we all got along great.
I had no idea how popular she was until she showed me the picture of the dudes she swam with in college. I appreciated that I didn't need to waste any more time, money or get emotionally connected with that.
It seems like there are required classes on how to ruin marriages in Highschool through college.
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Excellent Post and spot on with your assessment
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You are Most Welcome!
Personally speaking here, I have no issue with the idea of having Rules. When we think about how Jesus condensed the Law down to 2 principles of Loving God with all of our abilities and to Treat our Neighbors like we would ourselves I never had an issue of looking at those as Rules I should be doing and applying to my life.
To me, if the Bible is a Guide and Guideline to how we should be and become. Looking at what I read as Rules is a benefit to enhance my overall life.
It's like when I see someone holding a sign asking for help. If I get this overwhelming feeling and ideas about giving food or money I see that as God telling me to be obedient and follow His command to give to that person in need. And if I want to further the explanation of what is happening I can say God gave me a Rule to obey and I choose to obey it.
Personally speaking here, I have no issue with the idea of having Rules. When we think about how Jesus condensed the Law down to 2 principles of Loving God with all of our abilities and to Treat our Neighbors like we would ourselves I never had an issue of looking at those as Rules I should be doing and applying to my life.
To me, if the Bible is a Guide and Guideline to how we should be and become. Looking at what I read as Rules is a benefit to enhance my overall life.
It's like when I see someone holding a sign asking for help. If I get this overwhelming feeling and ideas about giving food or money I see that as God telling me to be obedient and follow His command to give to that person in need. And if I want to further the explanation of what is happening I can say God gave me a Rule to obey and I choose to obey it.
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(From Google AI)
What is spiritual narcissism?
AI Overview
Spiritual narcissism occurs when someone uses their spiritual or religious beliefs and practices to gain power, control, and admiration from others. It's a form of narcissism that manifests within a spiritual framework, often disguised as spiritual superiority or a "higher purpose".
Key Characteristics of Spiritual Narcissism:
What is spiritual narcissism?
AI Overview
Spiritual narcissism occurs when someone uses their spiritual or religious beliefs and practices to gain power, control, and admiration from others. It's a form of narcissism that manifests within a spiritual framework, often disguised as spiritual superiority or a "higher purpose".
Key Characteristics of Spiritual Narcissism:
- Self-importance and a sense of superiority:
Spiritual narcissists often believe their spiritual development or knowledge is superior to others. - Need for admiration and validation:
They actively seek praise and attention for their spiritual actions or claims. - Lack of empathy and understanding:
They struggle to see things from others' perspectives and may dismiss or belittle those who disagree with their views. - Exploitation and manipulation:
They may manipulate others to gain control or benefit from them, often under the guise of spiritual guidance or service. - Using spirituality to avoid personal responsibility:
They may use spiritual concepts to avoid facing their own emotional or psychological issues. - Distorted perception of self:
They may hold an inflated sense of their own spiritual enlightenment or importance.
- Spiritual leaders or teachers who use their position to exploit followers for personal gain:
This can involve financial exploitation, emotional manipulation, or even sexual abuse. - Individuals who use spiritual language to deflect blame or criticism:
They might claim their actions are "for the greater good" or "divine will," even when they are clearly harmful. - People who boast about their spiritual practices or knowledge while dismissing others' experiences:
They may present themselves as more enlightened or spiritually advanced than others, even if their actions contradict their claims.
I used worldly AI to show what Jesus said in a single sentence & pretty much sums up the whole ordeal: You will know them by their fruits.
Can someone explain how these "unruly" women were ministering to a local congregation with all the fruits of the Spirit if they were wrong? God will NOT anoint such a person if they are wrong.
- The Holy Spirit is witness when the fruit is evident.
Be careful .... arguing against the works of the Holy Spirit can get you into deep with God.
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I mean Jesus was discipling Martha and Mary, do you really think he intended them to be quiet? He allowed the Woman at the Well (John 4) to preach, though she was Samaritan. We have Lydia, Nympha, Julia with her brother Jason who led Churches, along with Priscilla and Aquila. I think there is more Scriptures in favor of women being allowed to lead and teach than there is against it. And what if the men abdicate? Have the spirit of Ahab Spirit and refuse to lead people? Did not God raise up Deborah in the Old Testament, did not Ruth look to Noemi? Was it not Rahab who helped the Spies? Did not the Christ, our Lord Jesus come in the flesh because Mary obeyed the Lord?
I happen to agree with the Romans that Mary The Mother is the Second Eve, that just as One Woman in Paradise was partner in the Fall, Mary undos Eve's evil by agreeing to let Jesus be conceived, carried, and raised by Her to be Savior of All Humans. I am not saying Mary is a demigod or The Fourth Person of the Trinity.. no, but she is the antithesis of Eve who chose the Forbidden Fruit, instead Mary allowed The First Fruits of the Resurrection, The Alpha and Omega to take flesh in her.
From my perspective Woman has been redeemed as much as Man, when I say redeemed I am not speaking of the eternal redemption through Christ we all have by faith (we have it), but rather the little r redemption of cleansing and being bought back from the dark hands of slavery.
The Apostle Paul who people use his one verse to keep women down, also said,
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
Woman is as much a New Creation as Man upon believing in Jesus!,
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
If we are in Christ, wither male or female, we are no longer the old order of things! We are One in Christ, and Christ makes His appeal through us as ambassadors,
"So we are Christ's ambassadors, God making His appeal as it were through us." (2 Corinthians 5:20, AMPC). Paul doesn't then say, "well only for men is this so..," that verse does not exist!
I happen to agree with the Romans that Mary The Mother is the Second Eve, that just as One Woman in Paradise was partner in the Fall, Mary undos Eve's evil by agreeing to let Jesus be conceived, carried, and raised by Her to be Savior of All Humans. I am not saying Mary is a demigod or The Fourth Person of the Trinity.. no, but she is the antithesis of Eve who chose the Forbidden Fruit, instead Mary allowed The First Fruits of the Resurrection, The Alpha and Omega to take flesh in her.
From my perspective Woman has been redeemed as much as Man, when I say redeemed I am not speaking of the eternal redemption through Christ we all have by faith (we have it), but rather the little r redemption of cleansing and being bought back from the dark hands of slavery.
The Apostle Paul who people use his one verse to keep women down, also said,
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
Woman is as much a New Creation as Man upon believing in Jesus!,
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
If we are in Christ, wither male or female, we are no longer the old order of things! We are One in Christ, and Christ makes His appeal through us as ambassadors,
"So we are Christ's ambassadors, God making His appeal as it were through us." (2 Corinthians 5:20, AMPC). Paul doesn't then say, "well only for men is this so..," that verse does not exist!
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You bring up an important issue: as Christians, I think the majority of us are “law-abiding citizens”. We function more easily within clearly established boundaries than in areas where the edges aren’t as clear. We also tend towards judgement of those who interpret boundaries differently.
Given the extant English versions of the pertinent passages of Scripture, it is understandable that the role of women would be a battleground. I am certain that was not Paul’s intention, and, if my interpretation is correct, he may not have known how his words would be used.
Generally, I think the complementarians need to relax and consider alternative explanations instead of demonizing those who offer them.
Given the extant English versions of the pertinent passages of Scripture, it is understandable that the role of women would be a battleground. I am certain that was not Paul’s intention, and, if my interpretation is correct, he may not have known how his words would be used.
Generally, I think the complementarians need to relax and consider alternative explanations instead of demonizing those who offer them.
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I would say he's giving an educated opinion of these things he says because of church traditions/customs.
Read this carefully, because it speaks about christian traditions/customs:
1 cor 11
1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I handed them down to you. 3But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and [a]the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for it is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 6For if a woman does not cover [c]her head, have her also [d]cut her hair off; however, if it is disgraceful for a woman to [e]have her hair cut off or [f]her head shaved, have her cover [g]her head. 7For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man [h]does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10Therefore the woman should have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man [j]independent of woman. 12For as the woman originated from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. 13Judge [k]for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does even nature itself not teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her as a covering. 16But if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no [l]such practice(custom/tradition), nor have the churches of God.
To the wise reader, this may explain a lot about what's allowed in the church (customs/traditions), and what is the absolute will of God.
I'm treading lightly here, so be patient with this post.
Traditions/customs were allowed to some degree in the church.
This was the custom of women having long hair.
Paul is saying if someone challenges this custom, it's not worth keeping to bring contention into the church.
We would do well to investigate the scriptures to determine if an issue is a church custom/tradition, or absolute theology.
Some folks aren't going to take this teaching well.
Read this carefully, because it speaks about christian traditions/customs:
1 cor 11
1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I handed them down to you. 3But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and [a]the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for it is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 6For if a woman does not cover [c]her head, have her also [d]cut her hair off; however, if it is disgraceful for a woman to [e]have her hair cut off or [f]her head shaved, have her cover [g]her head. 7For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man [h]does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10Therefore the woman should have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man [j]independent of woman. 12For as the woman originated from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. 13Judge [k]for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does even nature itself not teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her as a covering. 16But if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no [l]such practice(custom/tradition), nor have the churches of God.
To the wise reader, this may explain a lot about what's allowed in the church (customs/traditions), and what is the absolute will of God.
I'm treading lightly here, so be patient with this post.
Traditions/customs were allowed to some degree in the church.
This was the custom of women having long hair.
Paul is saying if someone challenges this custom, it's not worth keeping to bring contention into the church.
We would do well to investigate the scriptures to determine if an issue is a church custom/tradition, or absolute theology.
Some folks aren't going to take this teaching well.
Oh, I definitely agree that it should apply to anyone (male OR female) within a marriage, or even just within a somewhat serious dating relationship. 👍
Perhaps a single person is technically "free" to pursue the attentions of multiple other available singles, but if that is their main focus then their attention would be too divided to qualify for ministry. That's one reason I think the passage is speaking more to heart attitude; a man could be technically "qualified" through marriage (if you feel that's what the passage is referring to), but if he has a wandering eye then even if he's not technically committing adultery, he probably will at some point once he gets in a position of authority.
Anyways.... I respect your interpretation and it sounds like God is keeping you plenty busy regardless, so no worries! 😎
Perhaps a single person is technically "free" to pursue the attentions of multiple other available singles, but if that is their main focus then their attention would be too divided to qualify for ministry. That's one reason I think the passage is speaking more to heart attitude; a man could be technically "qualified" through marriage (if you feel that's what the passage is referring to), but if he has a wandering eye then even if he's not technically committing adultery, he probably will at some point once he gets in a position of authority.
Anyways.... I respect your interpretation and it sounds like God is keeping you plenty busy regardless, so no worries! 😎
Just some seasoning for the discussion:
When Paul wrote "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."
Was this a tradition of man or of God?
Also, is Christ decreased in importance by having God as His head?
So, practically, what does God as the head of Christ look like? Do we have examples? If so, we should gain an understanding of how it looks for one to have a head.
But what if the person who is the head is not righteous? God character cannot be disparaged but a human's certainly can. So what is provided for us who live in a fallen world? God certainly should have answers, yes?
When Paul wrote "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."
Was this a tradition of man or of God?
Also, is Christ decreased in importance by having God as His head?
So, practically, what does God as the head of Christ look like? Do we have examples? If so, we should gain an understanding of how it looks for one to have a head.
But what if the person who is the head is not righteous? God character cannot be disparaged but a human's certainly can. So what is provided for us who live in a fallen world? God certainly should have answers, yes?
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Oh, I totally agree and I'm comfortable with following the Biblical rules.... I've even asked God to give me firmer guidelines for things that are not clearly laid out in the Bible, but He said He'd rather I learned to follow the Spirit haha. 😂
I'm definitely inclined towards rule-following but have come to realize that the spirit of the law is much more important, otherwise we start arguing about whether a man must give up ministry if his wife dies, does he have to have more than one kid (it does say "children", right?), and does he still qualify if his kid hasn't reached the age of discipline? Stuff like that... like, how near-sighted do we need to be?
But I think we already agree here, I'm just explaining my view on rules so yall won't think I'm lawless lol 😜.
Totally agree..... that was me 20 years ago for sure. I still struggle with it sometimes but have mellowed in my old age 😎
I'm definitely inclined towards rule-following but have come to realize that the spirit of the law is much more important, otherwise we start arguing about whether a man must give up ministry if his wife dies, does he have to have more than one kid (it does say "children", right?), and does he still qualify if his kid hasn't reached the age of discipline? Stuff like that... like, how near-sighted do we need to be?
But I think we already agree here, I'm just explaining my view on rules so yall won't think I'm lawless lol 😜.
Totally agree..... that was me 20 years ago for sure. I still struggle with it sometimes but have mellowed in my old age 😎
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