Making a case for women in leadership

[Renewedstrength316]

I think you are pretty much spot on here, the only thing is though that the role of a pastor is not supposed to be of authority in any way not even a leader in fact it is more of a teacher and preacher the only one with any authoirty in the church is Christ himself. and if a women can be a judge in God's word which is a role of authoirty a very high one at that then how is a pastor any different?

Thanks for your reply, but there are serious biblical problems with what you’ve said.

You claimed the pastor has “no authority,” but Scripture directly contradicts that:

> “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.” (Hebrews 13:17)
“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor...” (1 Timothy 5:17)



Pastors (also called elders/overseers) are not figureheads or passive teachers. They are called to lead, protect, correct, and shepherd with real spiritual authority—under Christ, not instead of Him. Saying pastors have no authority at all is not humility. It’s error.

As for Deborah—yes, she was a judge. But that’s not the same as a New Testament elder. She was a civil leader during a time of rebellion, not a priest or teacher of the Law, and not a model for church leadership. Her presence is a rare exception in a broken system, not a pattern for how the Church is to be structured under Christ.

Paul didn’t leave room for debate when it comes to church order:

> “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.” (1 Timothy 2:12)



That command is not cultural. It’s rooted in creation (1 Tim. 2:13), and it’s reinforced in every passage about church leadership (1 Tim. 3, Titus 1). The call for men to lead spiritually is not about superiority—it’s about obedience to God's design.

Bottom line: God’s Word doesn’t contradict itself.
Christ is the Head of the Church—and He has spoken clearly through Scripture about how His Church is to function.

Let’s not rewrite what He has ordered. Let’s obey it.
Not because it’s popular, but because He is Lord.

> “Let all things be done decently and in order.” (1 Corinthians 14:40)

 

[NightTwister]

So then you are just not going to be able to disprove me then? your the only one who seems to think you are right if you haven't noticed and you provide no evidence to back yourself up not even a single scripture and all you can do is provide confident remarks with no evidence what so ever

I think we are done here it is clear you are not able to have an actual discussion or debate so good day to you sir

Read your comment again, but put your name in there. Have a blessed day.

 

[Blain]

from Matthew 20 verses 25-28 (Mark 10 verses 43-45, Luke 22 verses 26-27) ~ Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

precisely and very good job on your creation here it is really beautiful you should consider making a buisiness out of this magenta your to talented to not make some kind of living from it have you considered doing graphic design?

 

[Blain]

Thanks for your reply, but there are serious biblical problems with what you’ve said.

You claimed the pastor has “no authority,” but Scripture directly contradicts that:

> “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.” (Hebrews 13:17)
“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor...” (1 Timothy 5:17)



Pastors (also called elders/overseers) are not figureheads or passive teachers. They are called to lead, protect, correct, and shepherd with real spiritual authority—under Christ, not instead of Him. Saying pastors have no authority at all is not humility. It’s error.

As for Deborah—yes, she was a judge. But that’s not the same as a New Testament elder. She was a civil leader during a time of rebellion, not a priest or teacher of the Law, and not a model for church leadership. Her presence is a rare exception in a broken system, not a pattern for how the Church is to be structured under Christ.

Paul didn’t leave room for debate when it comes to church order:

> “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.” (1 Timothy 2:12)



That command is not cultural. It’s rooted in creation (1 Tim. 2:13), and it’s reinforced in every passage about church leadership (1 Tim. 3, Titus 1). The call for men to lead spiritually is not about superiority—it’s about obedience to God's design.

Bottom line: God’s Word doesn’t contradict itself.
Christ is the Head of the Church—and He has spoken clearly through Scripture about how His Church is to function.

Let’s not rewrite what He has ordered. Let’s obey it.
Not because it’s popular, but because He is Lord.

> “Let all things be done decently and in order.” (1 Corinthians 14:40)

Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
I think Jesus said it best

 

[Blain]

Read your comment again, but put your name in there. Have a blessed day.

I have already provided evidence you just refuse to accept it as such. for instance a women being a judge you still have not spoken on that if God can ordain a women to be a judge then why not a pastor? Deborah is a prime example of women being in leadership

 

[NightTwister]

I have already provided evidence you just refuse to accept it as such. for instance a women being a judge you still have not spoken on that if God can ordain a women to be a judge then why not a pastor? Deborah is a prime example of women being in leadership

You provided no evidence. Be blessed.

 

[Mem]

Any other? Have you heard what I have said? I am speaking very specifically about the authority a pastor has within his congregation in relation to the teaching of the word. He doesn't have authority to tell them where they must live, or what job they can do or how to dress. I am not talking about giving authority away in a general sense.

The context is conduct within the body of Christ. If a woman is not aloud to boss her husband around (and she isn't allowed), then neither is she allowed to assume she can boss other men around in the Church in respect to the teaching of the word. God has appointed pastor/teachers for the benefit of the congregation for this very reason. There is a hierarchy in God's system whether people like it or not. The same principle applies to males who are not appointed pastor/teacher. They don't have the right to undermine their pastor either by usurping his authority in the teaching of the word. Women are not given the independent authority to teach the word of God. The authority to do this is unique which is why pastors cop a double dose of discipline if they stuff up.

Sometimes I think people forget the one who received the greatest commendation for their faith was the centurion who understood authority. Matt.8:8-10

A husband and wife are to show unity within their marriage as much as there is to be unity in the church. They shouldn't bicker over anything, let alone the word of God, when assembled with other members of the body, as much as they are to show that the peace they keep among themselves extends into the Unity of the Body of Christ. Church is not to be conducted like it is here, where everyone bickers, like husbands and wives and nothing like good neighbors, over doctrine in front of everyone. And if they have anything to argue, they are to wait until they get home and resolve their differences, or not, but they are to at least keep up the appearance of unity within their marriage to reflect the unity between Christ and the Church.

 

[tablet123]

Everyone knows Pauls words on women pastors or rather a women speaking or teaching in the church and at face value this would seem pretty clear however the context of the verse has to do with the issues that was going on in the church at the time but what really got me thinking was this right here

Galatians 3:28 states that in Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor male nor female, for all are one. This verse emphasizes the equality and unity of believers in Christ, transcending traditional social and cultural divisions. It highlights that these categories, while still present in human society,
are not determinants of value or significance within the Christian community and so this verse got me thinking if this is to be true then why do we take Pauls words at face value he would be contradicting the himself
unless of course he was speaking in regards to what was going on in the church at the time then it would make sense not to mention what about the women who he even baosted about who ministered to people such as Junia?

This one verse just doesn't make sense to me if indeed women are subhuman in the church and Jesus himself never forbid women of such a thing he never even addressed it
Would Jesus forbid the gospel being preached by a women?

Both male and female are to preach the Gospel and witness to people.

Females can teach men.

In the Lord there is no male or female but they are equal for the only thing that separates a male and a female is the flesh but the soul and spirit are the same.

When they put off the flesh the glorified body is the same and there is no gender.

Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you so when a person has the Spirit they are part of the kingdom and are equal.

God gives wisdom liberally to whoever asks for it nothing wavering so whether preacher or saint they can receive the same wisdom.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

But when it is a Church setting it should be a man to lead the congregation.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

They must of had a problem with the women speaking which if they speak they are interrupting the preacher who is speaking and has the floor.

But women can sing in Church, worship God, and give testimonies.

But when the preacher is speaking they should keep silent for they cannot usurp authority over the man in charge.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

When the saints come together to receive edification that is better in a group than the preacher alone women can participate for a male and female are equal in the Lord.

But when it is to hear the word of God in a Church setting it should be a man which is the authority structure on earth.

It is probably alright for the preacher to allow a woman come up to speak but it has to be a man in charge.

 

[Magenta]

precisely and very good job on your creation here it is really beautiful you should consider making a buisiness out of this magenta your to talented to not make some kind of living from it have you considered doing graphic design?

Thank you, Blain, that is very kind of you to say, but a lot if not most of the sites I collect ephemera from stipulate no financial gain. So while I have full permission to use any elements as I desire from from such sites, editing them to my liking, and I have collected tens of thousands of images over the past few years, things like backgrounds and borders and frames and florals and special effects and figures and other human accoutrements including clothing and features, mostly facial such as eyes, ... my general images folder has 33,816 Files in 58 Folders, which includes all the panels I have designed/constructed in years gone by from images I saved to this folder => template items, which has 1,682 files, which I barely access or look at to use any more. Same is true of an older backgrounds' folder which has 914 files in it... (I rarely even look in there any more, but there are still some gems there LOL). More recent additions, since 2022 on this newer device from my daughter, are in my saved pix folder, which has 9,316 Files in 2 Folders, and my human elements folder, which has 7,762 Files...

Before the end of last year I did not have anywhere near as many in those last two folders, but I started generating my own background images, lots of florals and interiors and exterior scenes, and also my own figures, lots of close up faces, which, with AI, as you know, is not too great with certain details, especially depending on which generator you are using. So for the AI generated faces I overlay and blend in a real face and often make edits to the new face as well such as swapping out the eyes. Anyways, I did discover I could sell if I wanted to, but the fact is I have zero desire to sell them... anyways, that panel is a figure I generated and added a new face to and then blended in a differentt set of eyes, and combined her with a background I generated. I do still add other things to some, such as the butterfly in the lower left corner and the flowers under the verse citaion, plus I have streamlined my border/frame set-up, and so overall my process is a lot faster than it used to be, and I continue to add fonts to my device, also. I currently have 837 fonts installed haha of course some are unusable and others are the wrong type or just plain wrong for what I am doing, since they need to be extremely legible and they aren't all as legible as I would like, but hey, this is all fairly spontaneous and experimental so I learn as I go!

AI also has no idea what feminine modesty in cloting is, either, so even if I say high necked or whatever I need
to add a scarf LOL or make further edits to what they give me so they are more appropriate for my use.

I just genrated this woman. I stipulate who I want her to look like or I get their idea of womam which is ofen very elfin.



I really like this one! I will probably use her on a near future panel...

 

[sawdust]

A husband and wife are to show unity within their marriage as much as there is to be unity in the church. They shouldn't bicker over anything, let alone the word of God, when assembled with other members of the body, as much as they are to show that the peace they keep among themselves extends into the Unity of the Body of Christ. Church is not to be conducted like it is here, where everyone bickers, like husbands and wives and nothing like good neighbors, over doctrine in front of everyone. And if they have anything to argue, they are to wait until they get home and resolve their differences, or not, but they are to at least keep up the appearance of unity within their marriage to reflect the unity between Christ and the Church.

1Tim.2:11-12
11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

This has nothing to do with bickering between a husband and wife. It has to do with how a woman of God should behave especially in respect to learning the word of God.

If she is not to have authority over a man (and she is not), then she cannot have the sort of authority that is needed from a pastor over a congregation because it is the prime responsibility of a pastor to teach the word of God.

Again, the context is not marriage, the context is conduct in the body of Christ. Paul doesn't simply use the analogy of marriage in general to press home the point, he goes back to the origin of male/female relations and their respective God ordained roles when it comes to the word of God.

It is not about authority of a woman over a man in other circumstances. For example, any husband worth his salt knows if his wife tells him to keep his feet off the coffee table, or to hang his coat on the hook and not drop it on the floor and a myriad of other instructions a wife may require of her husband, he better follow suit for she has an authority in the home because it is her responsibility. Likewise, if your boss is a woman and she tells you to be on time for work or you will be fired if late one more time, you better be on time in the future. There are times and places where a woman can exercise authority over a man but teaching the word of God is not the one.

 

[Snackersmom]

What you say is true but let's not blame others for our misunderstandings but rather give thanks the Lord is patient and kind and is willing to help correct us and lead us in the paths of righteousness.

I wasn't passing blame, I was illustrating a point. This subject is VITALLY important but so often I hear it addressed with an air of flippance and superiority. VERY bad leadership form..... and the spiritual damage it does is very real.

But yes, I have already thanked The Lord MANY times for the small handful of men He has used to help me see things properly. I assure you I am not blind to His provision. 😉

 

[timemeddler]

I'm aware of what the English text says. I'm also aware of what the original Greek text says (which, by the way, is different). What is your point?

culture over bible got it. god forbid we actually go over the scriptures on the subject.

 

[Mem]

1Tim.2:11-12
11 A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

This has nothing to do with bickering between a husband and wife. It has to do with how a woman of God should behave especially in respect to learning the word of God.

If she is not to have authority over a man (and she is not), then she cannot have the sort of authority that is needed from a pastor over a congregation because it is the prime responsibility of a pastor to teach the word of God.

Again, the context is not marriage, the context is conduct in the body of Christ. Paul doesn't simply use the analogy of marriage in general to press home the point, he goes back to the origin of male/female relations and their respective God ordained roles when it comes to the word of God.

It is not about authority of a woman over a man in other circumstances. For example, any husband worth his salt knows if his wife tells him to keep his feet off the coffee table, or to hang his coat on the hook and not drop it on the floor and a myriad of other instructions a wife may require of her husband, he better follow suit for she has an authority in the home because it is her responsibility. Likewise, if your boss is a woman and she tells you to be on time for work or you will be fired if late one more time, you better be on time in the future. There are times and places where a woman can exercise authority over a man but teaching the word of God is not the one.

The context speaks in regard to a woman and her man, therefore the directive to "ask him when you get home." You can apply it in that context more broadly to all other women and their men. Miss Smith wouldn't have to ask anyone when she got home because she has yet to be bound to the promise of unity with anyone. And note that the suggestion to ask doesn't imply, "ask him what to think" but rather it would apply as asking him what he thought and why in an attempt to be convinced of his view.

Someone brought up Paul's observation that many of them were putting themselves under Apollos, or Cephas, and this would apply in more recent cases of people following Arminius or Calvin. They have been convinced by these pastors, but in one point or another they disagree and claim the other to be wrong so, someone is going to have to answer for teaching either this or that erroneously. And the constituents pledging allegiance to their error might have a little more lenience than they will but nonetheless will be corrected with the unadulterated Truth.

 

[tourist]

Consider this:

. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. The do so in error when they state that God said He forbid women to have authority over men. The Apostle Paul said HE forbid such. He NEVER said God forbid such.

HOW QUICKLY THEY FORGET:

Exactly. There is a huge difference between what Paul forbids and what God actually forbids.

 

[Dino246]

You claimed the pastor has “no authority,” but Scripture directly contradicts that:

“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.” (Hebrews 13:17)

There is a difference that must be noted: in the secular world, leadership is effected by force or threat of force. Jesus addresses this clearly in Luke 22:25-26. He makes it crystal clear that among Christians, leaders exercise "authority" by serving, not by domineering. This completely undermines the whole idea of "authority" as the world uses the term, and as many Christians (including, apparently, yourself) use it.

Pastors (also called elders/overseers)

Where is that equation made in Scripture? Where does it say that "pastor" is the same role as "elder" and/or "overseer"?

Paul didn’t leave room for debate when it comes to church order:

> “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

Authentein simply does not mean "exercise authority". Its meaning is abstruse, but most likely Paul used it to mean "domineer by use of sexual persuasion". Of course Paul doesn't permit women to do that to men in the Church, any more than he would permit men to seduce women by exercising their "pastoral authority" or positional influence. In contrast, Paul's statement makes perfect sense if he is talking specifically about one woman who came out of the mystery cults and needed to "learn quietly" before stepping into a teaching role in the church. The rest of the first two chapters make several references to these mystery cults, which were rampant in Ephesus at the time.

That command is not cultural. It’s rooted in creation (1 Tim. 2:13), and it’s reinforced in every passage about church leadership (1 Tim. 3, Titus 1). The call for men to lead spiritually is not about superiority—it’s about obedience to God's design.

Most people interpret verse 13 to support the idea that women should not teach or have authority, but there is no inherent connection between being created first and having authority. Nowhere (aside from this verse) does Scripture suggest that prior creation imparts authority over the later-created. Indeed, humankind was created last yes was given authority over all creation. That by itself is enough to refute this gross misinterpretation of verse 13.

The truth is in the cultural context, wherein mystery cults (largely headed by females) were teaching things in direct contrast to Scripture, such as that Eve was created first and was not deceived.

Bottom line: God’s Word doesn’t contradict itself.

I'm glad you stated that, because it makes refuting your argument very easy.

In 1 Corinthians 11:5, God's word says that women may pray or prophesy (with their heads covered). Prophesying is meaningless if not done within the context of the Church and OUT LOUD. Yet God's word says in 1 Corinthians 14:34 that women must be SILENT in the churches. you can't prophesy out loud and be silent. You can't pray out loud and be silent. Praying and prophesying in no way fit within the direction to "ask their husbands at home".

So, either God's word contradicts itself, or Paul didn't write at least one of those passages. In contrast, it makes perfect sense that 14:34-35 are a quotation to which Paul responds in 36, "What? Did the word of God come only to you?" As in, only to you men? The obvious answer in this light is "No!" which should toss your position on its ear.

So, I would actually agree with you: the word of God does not contradict itself, but only when we see that certain passages are badly misinterpreted, and others belong in quotations.

 

[Dino246]

culture over bible got it. god forbid we actually go over the scriptures on the subject.

Context informs Scripture. Every competent Hermeneutics teacher will tell you that. Your flippant remark tells me that you aren't interested in discussion, but in perpetuating the errors you believe; I'd like to be proven wrong on that.

 

[Dino246]

Both male and female are to preach the Gospel and witness to people.

Females can teach men.

In the Lord there is no male or female but they are equal for the only thing that separates a male and a female is the flesh but the soul and spirit are the same.

When they put off the flesh the glorified body is the same and there is no gender.

Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you so when a person has the Spirit they are part of the kingdom and are equal.

God gives wisdom liberally to whoever asks for it nothing wavering so whether preacher or saint they can receive the same wisdom.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

But when it is a Church setting it should be a man to lead the congregation.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

They must of had a problem with the women speaking which if they speak they are interrupting the preacher who is speaking and has the floor.

But women can sing in Church, worship God, and give testimonies.

But when the preacher is speaking they should keep silent for they cannot usurp authority over the man in charge.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

When the saints come together to receive edification that is better in a group than the preacher alone women can participate for a male and female are equal in the Lord.

But when it is to hear the word of God in a Church setting it should be a man which is the authority structure on earth.

It is probably alright for the preacher to allow a woman come up to speak but it has to be a man in charge.

Your position is inherently self-contradictory. If women are to remain silent in the churches (14:34), they can't pray or prophesy (11:5, sing, or speak in tongues. "Silent" leaves no room for exceptions.

Consider that 14:34-35 are actually a quotation to which Paul responds. There are two clear pieces of evidence for this in addition to the above:

There is no verse or passage in the Law requiring women to be either "silent" or "under submission". Paul, as a scholar of the Law, would have known this very well.

Paul reacted in verse 36 with, "What? Did the word of God come only to you?" This makes no sense whatsoever if the previous two verses are his own words, but it makes perfect sense if he is reacting to a ridiculous assertion made by the Corinthian men.