More about Israel.

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Do not worship ethnic race!!!

Smh I don't know where you'd get that.

 

[Churchgoer]

Smh I don't know where you'd get that.

If so, you have hope. I have hope in you.

 

[dkontner]

The world is going to destroy Mystery Babylon and God is going to destroy the world. Not one stone will be left upon another. Nothing new. The harlot is going down one last time and then the Lord Jesus is coming. No more wars.

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

 

[God-fearing]

 

[PotofSoup]

My reason for bolding it was to show that Jesus appeared to be saying that Jerusalem would see him again after 3 days



I don't agree with your conclusion that he was only speaking to those who were not his followers. Not all of Jerusalem disbelieved. When Jesus said Psalms 118:26 would be uttered when Jerusalem saw him again, he was not in Jerusalem. When Jerusalem did see him again as he descended the Mt of Olives, his disciples said exactly what he said would be said. And if they hadn't said it the rocks would have cried out those words because he said they would be uttered, as I explained in a previous post.



No, that is the modus operandi of dispensationalists. I see it the way I do because all of the prophets prophesied of those days in which the apostles lived. Scripture says so

And all the prophets from Samuel, and as many as spoke thereafter foretold these days. Acts 3:24​

Yet dispensationalists disbelieve this and what other scripture plainly says in order to push everything into the future to make their narrative work. The fact that God has fulfilled, or is fulfilling, every prophecy pertaining to Israel in Christ and his body collapses their narrative.



The pharisees were the mainstream group that educated the people. Jesus acknowledged that when he told the people to listen to them because they sat in the seat of Moses to teach the people. Everything else was either the ruling priestly class (Saducees) or fringe elements (eg., Essenes). So of course the disciples would have held beliefs taught by the pharisees.



Since the disciples were inculcated in the ideas of the pharisees, they expected the restoration of the earthly kingdom then. But that idea vanished when they were baptized in the holy spirit at Pentecost. That was the promise true Israel was waiting for.



I ask you again, as I asked you before, to address Paul's statement in Galatians 3:16 that God promised the land to Abraham and to his seed, who is Christ, not Israel. That's a fair thing to ask since you claim the land was promised to Israel in the blood covenant of Genesis 15:18, whereas Paul says it was promised to Christ.



.

Again, thanks for keeping the posts together. Also, thanks for the Psalm 118 reference, as I was not aware He was quoting that verse until you mentioned it. Nonetheless, why do you say He was not in Jerusalem when He said it? He was He was standing inside the Jerusalem Temple complex when He said those words. When Jesus said it, He was referring to how this city killed prophets and thus anticipated His murder in this very city. So how can you say that Jesus was also referencing His disciples? Are you saying that He anticipated that all His disciples were going to murder Him?

You accuse dispensationalists for moving scripture to suite their theology, so you quoted Acts 3:24, how can you be so sure this verse is not speaking about your supersession beliefs? I am not a dispensationalist, since I disagree with points of their theology, but they are right about Israel. God indeed has fulfilled, or is fulfilling, every prophecy pertaining to Israel in Messiah through his body, so how does that collapse dispensationalists beliefs? You don't have to answer that, just curious, I don't want to veer off the subject.

Also, modern scholarship does not view the Pharisees as “mainstream” and everyone else as “fringe.” Instead, modern scholars see Second Temple Judaism as a diverse, decentralized ecosystem with multiple major groups, none of which held total dominance. This is the consensus across Sanders, Neusner, Goodman, Mason, Collins, and the Dead Sea Scrolls scholarship. Pharisees were popular among some urban Judeans, but most of Jesus Apostles were from non-urban Galilee.

In any case, the point is that no matter what stream of Judaism the Apostles sprang from the land was a core belief and this belief did not fade away with Jesus coming, nor did it fade away with Jesus' resurrection and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does not say that the Apostles changed their minds about the Judaism or the land. In fact, after receiving the Holy Spirit Peter spoke to a crowd of Jews and quoted Joel 2:28-32. Verse 28-32 is the ending of that chapter and right at the beginning of chapter 3 Joel prophecies the restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem. Again, I think you're pulling at strings here to try to square with your supersessionist belief system.

As far as the seed, you keep bringing up the seed in Galatians, so the burden of proof is on you to tell me in detail what you believe about it. But before you do I think it is important to square away Jesus return is incumbent on Jew welcoming Him back to Jerusalem in the end days, not three days after his death. Thanks.

 

[HeIsHere]

God indeed has fulfilled, or is fulfilling, every prophecy pertaining to Israel in Messiah through his body, so how does that collapse dispensationalists beliefs?

You make this statement but you have no proof of this either, it is just your assertion.. the verse(s) from Galatians is drawn from a reliable source.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Nonetheless, why do you say He was not in Jerusalem when He said it? He was He was standing inside the Jerusalem Temple complex when He said those words.

I don't know where you get that. It says in verse 13:22 that he was traveling towards Jerusalem, and in 13:34 he said those words, and then six chapters later his disciples uttered those words as he approached Jerusalem for the last time.

And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Luke 13:22​

When Jesus said it, He was referring to how this city killed prophets and thus anticipated His murder in this very city. So how can you say that Jesus was also referencing His disciples? Are you saying that He anticipated that all His disciples were going to murder Him?

Jesus said that in response to certain pharisees who were telling him to stay away from Jerusalem because King Herod wanted to kill him. Then he lamented over Jerusalem for its history of doing that and said that she wouldn't see him again until his disciples welcomed him as the king of Israel to Jerusalem, which happened 3 days later.

The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Luke 13:31-34​

God indeed has fulfilled, or is fulfilling, every prophecy pertaining to Israel in Messiah through his body, so how does that collapse dispensationalists beliefs? You don't have to answer that, just curious, I don't want to veer off the subject.

It collapses their beliefs because they make a hard distinction between what Paul calls Israel after the flesh and Israel after the spirit. To them the word Israel means only the physical nation and they are completely unable to acknowledge spiritual Israel, which simply means Israel that follows the spirit and is ruled by God. They call spiritual Israel the church and maintain a strict distinction between the two, refusing to ever associate the church with Israel. Thus they reason that all prophecies about the restoration of Israel must pertain to Israel after the flesh, rather than Israel after the spirit, ie., the elect of Israel.

Also, modern scholarship does not view the Pharisees as “mainstream” and everyone else as “fringe.” Instead, modern scholars see Second Temple Judaism as a diverse, decentralized ecosystem with multiple major groups, none of which held total dominance. This is the consensus across Sanders, Neusner, Goodman, Mason, Collins, and the Dead Sea Scrolls scholarship. Pharisees were popular among some urban Judeans, but most of Jesus Apostles were from non-urban Galilee.

The other groups really did not have the influence over the population that the pharisees had. And they were in fact the only group that survived the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD for that reason. They regrouped and created the religion that we call Judaism.

In any case, the point is that no matter what stream of Judaism the Apostles sprang from the land was a core belief and this belief did not fade away with Jesus coming, nor did it fade away with Jesus' resurrection and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does not say that the Apostles changed their minds about the Judaism or the land. In fact, after receiving the Holy Spirit Peter spoke to a crowd of Jews and quoted Joel 2:28-32. Verse 28-32 is the ending of that chapter and right at the beginning of chapter 3 Joel prophecies the restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem. Again, I think you're pulling at strings here to try to square with your supersessionist belief system.

i think you're making a lot of assumptions to claim that the land or nation was important to the apostles. They had been told that there was no future for it, so they didn't place their hope in it like zionists who have no other hope do.

As far as the seed, you keep bringing up the seed in Galatians, so the burden of proof is on you to tell me in detail what you believe about it. But before you do I think it is important to square away Jesus return is incumbent on Jew welcoming Him back to Jerusalem in the end days, not three days after his death. Thanks.

This is the 3rd or 4th time you've avoided addressing Galatians 3:16 and tried to get me to go down some other rabbit trail. That's because you can't; you won't dare because it completely undermines your narrative. What Paul said is self-explanatory; it's simply a matter of whether you believe what he said, or not. Obviously you do not.

 

[Churchgoer]

No, they are fulfilled when Israel will never again be uprooted from the land

Any relationship of this with Christian shouting support to current israel state?

 

[Thaddeus]

Any relationship of this with Christian shouting support to current israel state?

A process has started, not yet completed. Patience is a virtue

 

[Churchgoer]

A process has started, not yet completed. Patience is a virtue

A process by God? This i agree.

Still where is Christian support fit in?

Like I said, God do not need Christians to help to put Jesus on the cross.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

As far as the seed, you keep bringing up the seed in Galatians, so the burden of proof is on you to tell me in detail what you believe about it. But before you do I think it is important to square away Jesus return is incumbent on Jew welcoming Him back to Jerusalem in the end days, not three days after his death. Thanks.

All of these things you keep bringing up are just distractions to avoid having to deal with the central issue of who/what is the seed of Abraham to whom all the promises were made. That crucial truth has to be determined before this conversation can go anywhere other than unedifying back-and-forth.

You say the seed is Israel, but Paul says the seed is Christ (Galatians 3:16). I stand with Paul. Do you believe what Paul said, or are you following someone else?

 

[Thaddeus]

A process by God? This i agree.

Still where is Christian support fit in?

Like I said, God do not need Christians to help to put Jesus on the cross.

Christian support as in God returned the Israelites to their biblical homeland as the prophets said He would. Any process of God should be supported. This is still to come:
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lordwill bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaaniten the house of the Lord Almighty. Zech14

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

What verse 5 really says

And the valley of my mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined to Azal. And it shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him. Zechariah 14:5​

Deciphering Zechariah 14:5

An indepth analysis of Zechariah 14:5

zechariahfourteenfive.wordpress.com

 

[HeIsHere]

All of these things you keep bringing up are just distractions to avoid having to deal with the central issue of who/what is the seed of Abraham to whom all the promises were made. That crucial truth has to be determined before this conversation can go anywhere other than unedifying back-and-forth.

You say the seed is Israel, but Paul says the seed is Christ (Galatians 3:16). I stand with Paul. Do you believe what Paul said, or are you following someone else?

Are we at the Romans 11 deflection yet?

 

[Thaddeus]

What verse 5 really says

And the valley of my mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined to Azal. And it shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him. Zechariah 14:5​

Deciphering Zechariah 14:5

An indepth analysis of Zechariah 14:5

zechariahfourteenfive.wordpress.com

The NIV is reputable enough for me!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The NIV is reputable enough for me!

Be it unto you according to your faith

 

[Churchgoer]

Christian support as in God returned the Israelites to their biblical homeland as the prophets said He would. Any process of God should be supported. This is still to come:
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lordwill bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaaniten the house of the Lord Almighty. Zech14

Not agree.
God put Israel in punishment in ot time, did God command people like Daniel, Jeremiah to destroy Israel people?
God put Jesus on the cross, did God command Peter, Mary to sell Jesus?
God destroyed Israel in 70 ad, did God command Christian to burn down the area?
God put many empires in place, did God command His people to help persian, greek, roman empire, ottoman empire to destroy middle east??
God punished David for what he did, did God command Nathan to kill the baby?
Man shall not do God's job, unless God command us so.
Go by 10 commandments.

 

[legion]

Yes, once Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge they knew of good and evil. They did not have a written law but were from then on aware of sin. So, they knew it was wrong to commit adultery, murder, steal etc. So we can say they knew part of what would later become a written law.
Today you can only be conscious of sin through the law for sin is the transgression of the law. Not a reference point, a fact.
For you to be correct, law other than the two greatest commandments must exist, or you could not be conscious of sin concerning them, but only two active laws were written in the mind and placed on the heart, the rest of active law are somewhere else as reference points. I could say, how stupid is that?
The reality is, all christians have heartfelt consciousness of sin if they steal, commit adultery, covet etc. Your theology is not the reality

Well that is a convenient escape on the on the issue the factory means the Mosaic law is not necessary to understand what sin is. Just by reading the New Testament we know what sin is and the Mosaic law was not in the composite of all sin possible by humankind it's like people want to worship the Mosaic law but they don't actually understand it it was for a specific people for specific time frame with a specific purpose beyond that it is simply only a historical set of information that is very good practical knowledge and it's use has faded become Obsolete and replaced by a more perfect Covenant what part of this in the Bible are you people not understanding

 

[legion]

Yes, once Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge they knew of good and evil. They did not have a written law but were from then on aware of sin. So, they knew it was wrong to commit adultery, murder, steal etc. So we can say they knew part of what would later become a written law.

Correct and no Mosaic law present.

Today you can only be conscious of sin through the law for sin is the transgression of the law. Not a reference point, a fact.

Incorrect, as you just said adam and eve sinned without the mosaic law.

For you to be correct, law other than the two greatest commandments must exist, or you could not be conscious of sin concerning them, but only two active laws were written in the mind and placed on the heart, the rest of active law are somewhere else as reference points. I could say, how stupid is that?

No one knows specifically what was written to the heart. I speculate a cicscious derived from loving God and others, any thing that betrays this is sin. I need no Mosaic law to know this.

The reality is, all christians have heartfelt consciousness of sin if they steal, commit adultery, covet etc. Your theology is not the reality

I am saying that exact thing. My theology is my reality and guess what while I understand the Mosaic law to some degree it never crosses my mind because my concerns are am I offending God or offending my neighbor I am fulfilling all of the requirements for the Mosaic law without even having the Mosaic law

plus being a gentile convert the Mosaic law never had any application to me in the first place not to mention the Bible explicitly States half a dozen or more times that the old Covenant including Mosaic law was replaced by a New Covenant and a better more perfect law

so I'm not the one who has to prove anything here I'm simply reading the text of the Bible and understanding the Old Mosaic law is not binding on anybody and is faded Into Obscurity which is clearly the point of most of the verses related to it in the New Testament

 

[Thaddeus]

Not agree.
God put Israel in punishment in ot time, did God command people like Daniel, Jeremiah to destroy Israel people?
God put Jesus on the cross, did God command Peter, Mary to sell Jesus?
God destroyed Israel in 70 ad, did God command Christian to burn down the area?
God put many empires in place, did God command His people to help persian, greek, roman empire, ottoman empire to destroy middle east??
God punished David for what he did, did God command Nathan to kill the baby?
Man shall not do God's job, unless God command us so.
Go by 10 commandments.

It is all very plainly written