More about Israel.

[QuietLampstand]

Gideon300,

It might surprise people, but as an " Anglo-Catholic Dispensationalist" I agree whole-heartedly with you. To believe God fulfilled all His vows to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through the "Church" is to at best not understand God, and at worst, to call God a liar. When Saint Paul writes about those who are "Israel" he is not really saying the Church assumes the role and promises of the covenant given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Galatians 6:16
Philippians 3:3

Nor is Saint Peter calling the "Church" the nation of Israel. “But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession…”
1 Peter 2:9

There is One Shepherd. One "Lamb of God who is Worthy" and the Saviour of our souls.

I think what some of our brothers and sisters miss is the meanings of the name Israel, and they fit for both the Nation of Israel and for the Church:

- “God strives”
- “God contends”
- “God rules”
- “May God prevail”

The real reason in my opinion for the idea that God fulfilled His promises to Israel through the Church was not a correct interpretation of scripture, but rather the lingering pettiness of Man. When the Gentile communities started outnumbering the Jewish Christian communities, relations worsened. That was after the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Romans. So, prejudices arose. Of coarse Gentiles would read into what Paul, Peter, and John wrote as if the Holy Spirit was correcting what was promised in the Old covenant with the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. Well, maybe not so much correcting as fulfilling.

But Christ, through the Spirit and the Revelation of Himself given to Saint John, explicitly states that 144,000 members of the Jewish Nation (even down to naming the tribes) saved. I personally believe there will be 144,000 ethnically Jewish people spreading the Gospel during the tribulation period. These 144k are not the Church, but they are under the same Shepherd.

Sorry...I'm rambling. But there you have an opinion from a new member of this community.

Blessings and Peace,
QuietLampstand

 

[Aaron56]

Would you include Ruth as such?

I mean, why would she be excluded?

 

[Gideon300]

self defense is not bombing entire cities grid by grid and killings close to 100k civilians. Many whom are women and children. Don't speak on matters you are ignorant on.

Are you a Muslim by any chance? You repeat the lies of a Muslim terrorist organisation. You are the ignorant one. I've followed this closely since the first days of the Hamas atrocity. And you have the hide to call me ignorant.

As I've said way too many times on this forum, tell me how you would deal with people whose sole intent is to destroy your country? Not only that, people who have tried many times in the past?

I'll cut you a little slack because you are too young to understand what really goes on in the Middle East. But you should quit talking about things that you know nothing about. One day, you will have to account before God for your lies and slander. I can assure you that God will not be pleased.​

 

[God-fearing]

I mean, why would she be excluded?

Just wondering, the story of Ruth is a picture of Christ as the goel. Which never enters in to these conversations, let alone the fulfillment of God's feast days, and even the Jubilee years.
Do you think that these also will fulfilled by Jesus?
There are things that are never mentioned or considered when discussing end times.

 

[Gideon300]

Israel is carrying out a genocide, don't be ignorant.

Spoken like a true ignoramus who has been brainwashed by Muslim propaganda. It is Muslims who are calling for the destruction of Israel. It is Muslims who started the attempt at genocide in 1948 and have not stopped since except to lick their wounds and start again.

You do not know what genocide is. And even worse, you use the BBC as a source of information. Do you not know that the UK is in effect a Muslim caliphate? Do you not know that Christians there are being locked up for quoting the Bible? And the BBC is complicit.

Do you know any history of modern Israel? Do you not know how the "Palestinians" (no such thing) have rejected every offer of a separate state? Do you know why? They will only accept a one state solution, which means the end of Israel.

Any nation facing that kind of threat should defend itself. Or do you think that Ukraine should give into Russia because otherwise they will have to kill Russians in self defence?

Why is that only Israel is condemned for defending itself? America has been at peace for just 17 years since independence. Europe has been involved in countless wars. It's part of fallen human nature.

Do yourself a favour and grow up.​

 

[Gideon300]

If you know anything relevant that Clement wrote about Revelations, can you please share that with me.

I am familiar with the quote from Irenaeus that has become the foundation of the belief that Revelations was written in AD95.
This idea did not originate from Irenaeus (born before 155) directly, but from Eusebius (260-339) who misquoted him.
Eusebius disliked the book of Revelations, and attributed the authorship of it to "John the Elder", alleging also that it was NOT written by the apostle John.
He also disliked Papias (born between 60 and 70AD) who states in his writings that he heard apostle John speak.
Papias identifies Apostle John as the author, writing in the time of Nero.

Nero is also "credited" with beheading Paul, crucifying Peter and boiling John in oil.
John is said to have survived miraculously, as was immediately banished to Patmos.
Fits well with his presence on the Island during Nero's reign.

For more on that, and an interesting explanation of the book:

All I can say is the evidence for circa AD 95 seems stronger than the alternate view. The following is a condensed timeline that I found on the internet. I studied the various eschatological views many years ago and came to the conclusion that no one really knows for sure - except God.

I know this much. There is a group of Jews determined to rebuild the temple, which fits with the Antichrist becoming the abomination of desolation. That group is in defiance of God's will. The third temple will be a snare and trap for religious Jews. Everything is in place to permit the temple to be rebuilt. The temple furnishings have been recreated, the priesthood restored along with the staff required for the sacrificial offerings to take place. It's even possible that the supposed temple mount is not the actual site of Herod's temple. That would allow the physical temple to be rebuilt on a site nearby.

According to some, the Antichrist covenant with Israel will include enabling the temple to be rebuilt. Then the Antichrist will take over, occupy the Holy of Holies and proclaim himself God. Whatever happens, we are in for interesting times. As I'm 75, I may not see the last of the last days. And I also believe that Jesus will take me home before the great tribulation.

https://www.biblecharts.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Time-of-the-Writing-of-the-Revelation.pdf

 

[Larry73]

Jesus, and most of HIS Apostles and disciples, was a faithful Jew. That FACT seems largely ignored by far too many here....

 

[Kroogz]

Jesus, and most of HIS Apostles and disciples, was a faithful Jew. That FACT seems largely ignored by far too many here....

The Lord Jesus Christ IS a Jew.

He is 100% humanity and 100% deity FOREVER........

This is why the world and most believers are against the Jews.

 

[God-fearing]

self defense is not bombing entire cities grid by grid and killings close to 100k civilians. Many whom are women and children. Don't speak on matters you are ignorant on.

Nonsense

 

[Beekeeper]

Jesus, and most of HIS Apostles and disciples, was a faithful Jew. That FACT seems largely ignored by far too many here....

Jesus is more than just a Jew, He is the king of the Jews and defines them.
All in His kingdom are the true Jews.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If Jesus' definition is spiritual and yours physical,
It is not Jesus that needs to change.

 

[dkontner]

It's not difficult.

Galatians 4​

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Melach]

I personally believe there will be 144,000 ethnically Jewish people spreading the Gospel during the tribulation period. These 144k are not the Church, but they are under the same Shepherd.

but friend if they arent the church then they arent saved. the church is simply the body of Christ, the assembly of true believers. whether you are jew or gentile you are part of the church if you are in Christ

 

[Beekeeper]

This fits perfectly. As I am on the fence about this, how do you interpret Revelation 18&19 which seem to connect the downfall of Babylon to the second advent and the wedding?

I am still learning of course too, but too much has been said about the harlot to mistake her identity.
I have no doubt that she is Jerusalem.
In Rev.19 begins with praise of God's judgement "for he hath judged the great whore" and continues to introduce a theme of God's great mercy, the marriage of the lamb.
We would not put this into the same time period as the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, but the comparison between the harlot and the bride is very much a theme of the book.
While I think that the players (ie beasts, horns and harlot) represent people and events that are now history, each has a spiritual legacy that continues to be in affect until the final judgement.
The power and corruption of the Roman beast continues, though in other forms.
The "spiritual" beast of Rev. 13:11 continues in it's deception.
The harlot continues in a modern form, how much longer for I do not know.
But God's goodness and mercy continues to His bride, undeserved as always, and for a little time more His open invitation continues too.

 

[dkontner]

I believe the 144,000 were redeemed when the Lord went to the heart of the earth and gave gifts to men and led captivity captive. The remnant was saved. Jesus brought the kingdom. Jesus said Abraham saw His day and was glad. They have not been resurected yet. All the promises will be fullfilled when the Lord returns.

Matthew 8​

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 55​

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Matthew 4​

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[HeIsHere]

There will be no liars in the Kingdom of God. Israel is defending itself, not committing genocide. Quit spreading slanderous and false information.

Impressive.

 

[HeIsHere]

Jesus, and most of HIS Apostles and disciples, was a faithful Jew. That FACT seems largely ignored by far too many here....

That ancient religion of the old covenant ended in the first century.

 

[Melach]

There will be no liars in the Kingdom of God. Israel is defending itself, not committing genocide. Quit spreading slanderous and false information.

is israel and usa also opening the strait of hormuz by closing it? did they attack iran first and cause this whole disaster to begin with?

 

[HeIsHere]

is israel and usa also opening the strait of hormuz by closing it? did they attack iran first and cause this whole disaster to begin with?

When one views Fox, CBN and other paid shills on You Tube as reliable, objective news sources I am quite sure we already know what the answer will be.

 

[Melach]

America is one of the main arms suppliers to Israel. So America is a genocide practicing nation too. Germany buys weapons from Israel. Have you noticed how Germany has the strongest economy in Europe? They support Israel. Have you noticed how the UK lost its massive empire in just a few decades? Yet they "won" WW2. The problem is that they betrayed Israel continually and still do.

God is still blessing those who bless Israel. As Americans increasingly turn against Israel, they are suffering economic and social collapse and the creeping Islamisation that is a blight on Europe.

i dont understand why you think germany or america are somehow blessed? american cities are full of junkies, high crime, low IQ fake people. germany on the other hand is having its entire population replaced by 3rd world human filth. i fail to see the blessing, but atleast the fentanyl is cheap

 

[Churchgoer]

When one views Fox, CBN and other paid shills on You Tube as reliable, objective news sources I am quite sure we already know what the answer will be.

Exactly.

For a few years I thought Newsmax, breibart were good. Then I saw Newsmax reporter quickly twist live story in front of my eyes, then put the dots together, even Newsmax, breitbart are controlled by the enemy of Jesus.

The people at least seem not controlled by them are, tucker Carlson, Thomas massie, Marjorie green....and some small independent churches, pastors.

So I am into small churches, at least I know the leaders, I know their backgrounds. I don't want big mega churches, don't know where their money come from. Like Scofield, how did he got Oxford publishing? Very questionable.

Even Jesus, Peter, Paul, John the Baptist.... they don't have big financial support. Follow their examples.