More about Israel.

[brightfame52]

Israel and Church the same, The Spiritual Family of Abraham !

The Church’s Unity Is seen By A Prophecy in Isaiah

The Father said to Christ, “It is a light thing that Thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel;

I will also give Thee for a light to the Gentiles, that Thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth” (Isaiah 49:6). In other words, it was God’s purpose that Christ, the Messiah, should not only save the preserved of Israel, but that He should be the Saviour of the Gentiles to the ends of the earth.

But no man is saved apart from faith in Christ. When a Jew or a Gentile believes in Christ, he becomes manifestly a member of Abraham’s spiritual family and a member of the Household of God, and therefore a member of the one family in heaven and in earth

Paul, of the Church, was an extension of Christ to fulfill this Purpose Acts 13:47

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Remember this command was given to Christ the servant in Isa 49:6.

The Gentiles are those in the Nations that Abraham was made a Father to in Gen 17:5


5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.4

 

[Beekeeper]

Absolutely about the destruction but the view of it is future not 70 ad.
Although using this passage alone is supported by many similar events that happened leading up to the destruction there are in this passage two holes that are not addressed.

1. Jesus talks about nation against nation....empires are not nations.
2. Jesus siad not one stone will be upon another.....yet we have today a western wall that survived the destruction.
I know I go against many theologians on this subject of destruction but I also chose Gods word over theory.

1. Empires start as nations and rise against other nations to establish themselves.
2.The Western wall is a retaining wall. Was it built by Herod or Hadrian?
Mathew 24:34 IS the word of God, not theory.

Also, Petra is not by any means a secret in this time, but a very popular tourist destination.
If ever you wish to plan a trip there, here is the link: https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Attr..._Guided_Trails_Main_Trial_in_Petra-Petra_Wadi

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Now grow up and quit causing strife.

I think it's you who needs to grow up and look around you and see prophecy being fulfilled everywhere. If you were a Jew right now, you might take this subject a little more serious. Antisemitism is growing by the minute and the church should be standing against it, like Bonhoeffer and Corrie ten Boom. If you had to hide a Jewish person in your home tonight for their safety, would you do it? Causing strife matters not to me when I'm standing on God's Word.

 

[PotofSoup]

So if there is an opposing view to my one about the Abrahamic covenant what would that be?
Are the promises of Abraham guaranteed to all who are born into his physical family?

That would not be a position that can be defended from the Bible.
Ishmael did not inherit them, neither did Esau.
Many of the children of Jacob also forsook God and also lost their inheritance.
Jesus told some Pharisees "Ye are of your father the devil", meaning that they were not children of God, despite being Jews.
God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, so if their father is the devil they do not inherit the promises of Abraham.
Jesus also said "I can raise up children of Abraham from these stones", meaning that the promises of Abraham are inherited by a spiritual kingdom, not a physical one.

So yes, all the promises of Abraham were to Jesus who is his seed, and it is in Jesus that all the families of the earth are blessed.
Jewish people are under the Abrahamic covenant only if their Father is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and that of course means that they believe in Jesus.

Serious biblical scholarship—across Jewish, Christian, and secular academic fields—affirms that the Jewish people remain under the Abrahamic covenant. To deny this is not only historically and textually unsupported, but it also dismisses centuries of rigorous study and contradicts the many explicit promises God makes to Israel throughout Scripture.

You are right that not every physical descendant of Abraham automatically receives the covenant promises. But Scripture is equally clear that these promises do not depend on human righteousness. They depend entirely on God’s sovereign choice.

God chose Isaac rather than Ishmael—not because Ishmael was unrighteous, but because God freely appointed Isaac as the covenant heir. God chose Jacob rather than Esau—not because Esau was morally inferior, but because God established His covenant through Jacob. And God chose the descendants of Jacob as His covenant people. He chooses because He is God, and He chooses without requiring prior righteousness because the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional—grounded in Abraham’s faith, not human merit (Deuteronomy 7:7–8; Deuteronomy 9:4–6; Romans 11:28–29).

This is not ambiguous in Scripture. The Lord speaks plainly on this point.

If you struggle to see it, perhaps—consciously or unconsciously—you long to be among the chosen people? The good news is that in Christ, you are. God’s covenant choice of Israel does not diminish His love for Gentiles. In Messiah, Gentiles are fully included in God’s redemptive plan. Gentiles who trust in Jesus are also chosen, not as Israel, but as participants in God’s redemptive plan through Messiah. Jews and Gentiles share equal standing before God, while retaining distinct covenant identities. If you have given your life to Jesus, you are chosen by Him. Just as He chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants for a particular calling, He also chooses you for a distinct calling.

 

[Churchgoer]

The covenant is always about Jesus. Even in OT.
Whoever deny Jesus, YHVH, they are not in covenant.
Simple.

 

[God-fearing]

1. Empires start as nations and rise against other nations to establish themselves.
2.The Western wall is a retaining wall. Was it built by Herod or Hadrian?
Mathew 24:34 IS the word of God, not theory.

Also, Petra is not by any means a secret in this time, but a very popular tourist destination.
If ever you wish to plan a trip there, here is the link: https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Attr..._Guided_Trails_Main_Trial_in_Petra-Petra_Wadi

1. Empires start as nations and rise against other nations to establish themselves.
2.The Western wall is a retaining wall. Was it built by Herod or Hadrian?
Mathew 24:34 IS the word of God, not theory.

Also, Petra is not by any means a secret in this time, but a very popular tourist destination.
If ever you wish to plan a trip there, here is the link: https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Attr..._Guided_Trails_Main_Trial_in_Petra-Petra_Wadi

So this all happened 30 or 40 yrs after the crucifixion. These nations rose to empires and such?? Wasn't the Roman Empire already established? They controlled Jerusalem at that time. Either way you look at it it was a future event. Jesus stood in the temple.
Yes Petra is a popular place more than you realize.

 

[Aaron56]

The covenant is always about Jesus. Even in OT.
Whoever deny Jesus, YHVH, they are not in covenant.
Simple.

Yeah, there’s only One Chief Cornerstone of God’s House: Christ Jesus.

 

[God-fearing]

So this all happened 30 or 40 yrs after the crucifixion. These nations rose to empires and such?? Wasn't the Roman Empire already established? They controlled Jerusalem at that time. Either way you look at it it was a future event. Jesus stood in the temple.
Yes Petra is a popular place more than you realize.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[Abeofold]

I'm new to CC. @ 75 and given the "Christian" umbrella, I am saddened by some of the emotion bouncing around. We are on the cusp of Dan 9:27.

When GOD appointed Abraham about 4000yrs ago, one of His Promises was, "I will Bless those that bless you curse those that curse you - -." Gen 12:3. In that sense, I support Israel today. GOD is keeping a remnant of Israel who will survive the 70th week.

There will be other survivors around the world although the devastation of The Day of The Lord will be terrible - eg Rev 16:17 - 21 - not to mention the preceding bowls and trumpets.

Then the Millennium - 1000 yrs reigned by The King of Kings and the Saints. 6 Days of creation, 1 Day of rest. 6000 yrs of man under Satan's dominion, 1000yrs of rest.

There are always atrocities in human conflict. However, Islam is predicated on dominion by force giving it a distinctive anti-Christ raison detre. In that sense I oppose the Muslim grouping. Christianity is predicated on GOD's Grace and Love. As to the rest, "Let them be" as C S Lewis puts it in the Screwtape letters.

There is none among us who knows it all. We have a singular assurance, Eternal Life. 1John 2:25, 5:11 and John 17:3.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

The covenant is always about Jesus. Even in OT.
Whoever deny Jesus, YHVH, they are not in covenant.
Simple.

I can't wrap my head around people thinking it's not.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Exodus 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

I've mentioned before that at this time it will be like a modern day Exodus.People who hear, and answer the call of the Lord are those who's spirits are drawn to the Two Witnesses,who are the word of God(Old covenant/New covenant),which the 144,000 testify of.

It isn't about Petra at all, or some physical place in modern day Israel.Gods remnant are those who go "into" the promise land and "out" to give testimony to those of the world.
If you have the Holy Spirit then you're in the promise land,there would be no need to travel to Petra when God will bare you on eagles wings(the word of God), and bring you unto himself(the Holy Spirit.)

When they're in the wilderness,people will complain much like they did during Exodus, and God will weed them out like weeds in a garden.It will be a time of testing.

 

[Beekeeper]

You are right that not every physical descendant of Abraham automatically receives the covenant promises. But Scripture is equally clear that these promises do not depend on human righteousness. They depend entirely on God’s sovereign choice.

That would mean that you agree with me that SOME Jewish people are under the Abrahamic covenant and some are not.

God chose Isaac rather than Ishmael—not because Ishmael was unrighteous, but because God freely appointed Isaac as the covenant heir. God chose Jacob rather than Esau—not because Esau was morally inferior, but because God established His covenant through Jacob. And God chose the descendants of Jacob as His covenant people. He chooses because He is God, and He chooses without requiring prior righteousness because the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional—grounded in Abraham’s faith, not human merit (Deuteronomy 7:7–8; Deuteronomy 9:4–6; Romans 11:28–29).

There was a conditional part of the Abrahamic covenant too, and it held until Christ had risen:

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

How can a soul be "cut off from his people" and still remain a citizen of the promised land?
None the less, the book of Hebrews would teach us that the Old Testament saints were saved by grace through Christ as well, and I bet that none other than Jesus Himself obeyed the law of Moses perfectly.
Never the less there is one thing in common between the old (Mt. Sinai) covenant and the new (risen Jesus) covenant, and that is they both demand obedience through faith- although the burden under the new is made light.
So yes, the old covenant has most certainly been broken never to come back again, and the curses have been applied.
With it part of the Abrahamic covenant, ie circumcision, has been broken too.

Romans 2:25
" For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision."

By this we can know that Romans 11 is all about salvation in Christ, and not about going back to the earthly promised land.[/QUOTE]

 

[Beekeeper]

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Exodus 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Revelations 11 begins with John measuring the still existent second temple, but Revelations 12 takes us back in time for another overview.
The book of Revelations is not written in chronological order.
The woman is the persecuted Hebrew early church.
She is clothed with the sun, which is Christ (Malachi 4:2), and the reflected light of the moon is at her feet, ie the OT Jewish types and shadows.
The dragon, Satan, at first comes as Herod, and the child is Christ fulfilling Genesis 3:15.
But Satan has 7 heads (the Roman empire), with seven crowns which are the seven kings of the Roman empire (Revelations 17:10), and 10 horns, the ten provincial rulers.
Daniel also describes the Roman empire as a beast with 10 horns (Daniel 7:7).
The tail of the dragon draws down stars (angels) from heaven, and these assist in resisting the early church.
The manchild (Christ) is to rule the nations with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:9, Revelations 2:27, Revelations 19:15)
When Christ is raised, Satan is cast down from heaven, where he has been throughout time, as in the book of Job.
We now have no accuser in heaven, but Satan angrily attacks the early church on earth, knowing that his opportunity to kill them all is short.
The Hebrew Church is saved from the destruction of Jerusalem by the power of God, but Satan makes war on her seed, the rest of the church.

 

[Churchgoer]

I can't wrap my head around people thinking it's not.

Exactly. Some are baby believers that get blown by every wind, some are purposely twisting the scripture.

 

[Abeofold]

Did Satan ever have authority? Maybe. I would be willing to see some verses. Paul says that we used to walk according to the system of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air. But this seems more like being directed by deception rather than authority. People who walk according to this world system do so voluntarily, not under compulsion by an authority.

But maybe I need to study more.

Agreed. When asked about 'when' Jesus 'replied beware that you are not deceived'. Mat 24:3 - 5

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Exactly. Some are baby believers that get blown by every wind, some are purposely twisting the scripture.

And some can understand it can be about more than one subject at a time.

 

[Beekeeper]

When Christ is raised, Satan is cast down from heaven, where he has been throughout time, as in the book of Job.
We now have no accuser in heaven, but Satan angrily attacks the early church on earth, knowing that his opportunity to kill them all is short.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

 

[Churchgoer]

John 8:39 - 44

 

[BetterCallPsalms]

I think it's you who needs to grow up and look around you and see prophecy being fulfilled everywhere. If you were a Jew right now, you might take this subject a little more serious. Antisemitism is growing by the minute and the church should be standing against it, like Bonhoeffer and Corrie ten Boom. If you had to hide a Jewish person in your home tonight for their safety, would you do it? Causing strife matters not to me when I'm standing on God's Word.

Of course I would allow somebody into my home if they were fearing for their safety, but that isn't the case. But I am not going to sit there and agree with those who think that Israel has not carried out a genocide. Just as the Pagan Nazis paid for their war crimes, so should Israeli's who have done the same acts.

 

[Beekeeper]

I've mentioned before that at this time it will be like a modern day Exodus.People who hear, and answer the call of the Lord are those who's spirits are drawn to the Two Witnesses,who are the word of God(Old covenant/New covenant),which the 144,000 testify of.

There are some clues given in Revelations 11 to the time of the two witnesses.
John measures the temple with those that worship in it (who will die), but leaves out the court for the Gentiles (Romans) who will tread under foot the holy city for forty two months.
We are not given the names of the two witnesses, but they are referred to in Zechariah 4:14 "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
The signs of Moses are given to the witnesses, so even at that late stage God gives the Jews the opportunity to repent and believe.
God is sentencing Jerusalem to death, and the law of Moses says; "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death;" (Deuteronomy 17:6).
We are also told that the place of the two witnesses in V.8 is Jerusalem, and Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.