Need help with these verses

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How can I be missing? Please explain what you mean.

I have consciously chosen to hear His voice and obey, and that too as an adult. What I did in the womb, I don't know. Do you?

This may or may not shed light on the question. A long time ago I was given a vision while in bed. Now, as a rule, I do not have visions, but at seven years, one was given to me. Here is what I saw:

Everything was very dark, however it could be seen there were two masses of land with a bottomless chasm between. On the far side was a small light. On the side where I was there were also the souls of others; as a matter of fact it was all souls that ever were or will be. They seemed to be billowing toward the edge of their side of the great crevice. They were in some fear and some confusion. Seeing the small light across the crevice there came a message with it, come to the light and you will cross the chasm. The understanding was implicit with the vision.

From that moment I thought the vision dealt with before we are born. I did not say a word to anyone about this until the past years, and even then not declaring it absolute nor meaningless, simply sharing it. For some reason, only Yahweh, God, knows, this vision has always given me comfort. Maybe this has been helpful
 
Hi Mule,
I agree that the fetus has awareness, but are you saying that the fetus can make a choice? Or that our spirits can make choices without our flesh? Isn't choice a rational decision that involves the flesh (or brain, which is not well developed before birth or at birth)?

I know that we are getting into deeper things here. Got to log out now. Will return later. Thanks.

@Mule,
I have asked a few questions above. You have not answered them(off course, you don't have to). I'm just trying to understand if you really have a point.

However, let me rephrase what I have to ask you:
===1===
You are saying:
We are spirit. Our spirit is ageless and eternal.
My question:
When were our spirits created by God? Before or after conception (assuming that conception is the point when sperm unites with the egg)? Or did we always exist from the beginning of time?
=======

===2===
You are saying:
Our spirits had already made a choice to follow or reject Jesus Christ when we were in the womb.
My question:
Can the fetus (a soul, that is a spirit with a body) make a choice?

In my opinion, most functions at the prenatal level are involuntary and instinctive, such as circulation of blood, crying, sucking the thumb, etc. These are programmed into the fetus by God and does not need the exercise of our will. At this point, I guess, our brains are not capable of rational decisions. How then can our spirits decide to follow or reject Christ?

The spirit cannot decide without the body. Scripture tells us that when the body dies, the spirit returns to God, and loses the capability to reason or choose or repent. How then can the spirit choose when the brain is not capable of volition?
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Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(KJV)

The Bible also says this about the wicked
Psalms 10:4
(4) The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

While people are not born guilty, the wicked are born with tendencies to sin more than than people who follow God. A couple who do not have God in their thoughts will bring up their children differently than a couple who follow God.

 
The Bible also says this about the wicked
Psalms 10:4
(4) The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

While people are not born guilty, the wicked are born with tendencies to sin more than than people who follow God. A couple who do not have God in their thoughts will bring up their children differently than a couple who follow God.


The verse you quoted (and the entire Psalm) does not say that the wicked "are born" with tendencies to sin more than others. The wicked were not born wicked. They became wicked because they chose to sin. They therefore corrupted their characters. The increased tendency to sin is due to the ungodly choices made by an individual.

I agree that the children of ungodly parents may be ungodly, because godly values haven't been inculcated into them by their parents. However, ungodly parents cannot bear children who are wicked from birth. Ungodliness results from a lifestyle of disobedience, and ungodly character is learned by the children from their ungodly parents. Children often learn from their parents' mistakes. They are not born that way.

On the other hand, there is no guarantee that children of godly parents will be godly.

Children may suffer the consequences of their parents' sins, but they cannot be born wicked.
 
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This may or may not shed light on the question. A long time ago I was given a vision while in bed. Now, as a rule, I do not have visions, but at seven years, one was given to me. Here is what I saw:

Everything was very dark, however it could be seen there were two masses of land with a bottomless chasm between. On the far side was a small light. On the side where I was there were also the souls of others; as a matter of fact it was all souls that ever were or will be. They seemed to be billowing toward the edge of their side of the great crevice. They were in some fear and some confusion. Seeing the small light across the crevice there came a message with it, come to the light and you will cross the chasm. The understanding was implicit with the vision.

From that moment I thought the vision dealt with before we are born. I did not say a word to anyone about this until the past years, and even then not declaring it absolute nor meaningless, simply sharing it. For some reason, only Yahweh, God, knows, this vision has always given me comfort. Maybe this has been helpful

Thank you for sharing your experience. It has been my policy not to argue against what someone has experienced. Our God works in mysterious ways. Furthermore, I do not consider myself qualified to analyze and comment on your vision. It's between you and God. Thank you for contributing from time to time to my questions.
 
Thank you for sharing your experience. It has been my policy not to argue against what someone has experienced. Our God works in mysterious ways. Furthermore, I do not consider myself qualified to analyze and comment on your vision. It's between you and God. Thank you for contributing from time to time to my questions.

Very wise. I should not have posted it. May Yahweh bless you and hold you near always. jack
 
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(KJV)


What are the first two verses talking about? Are these exaggerations? How can one be "born speaking lies?"
How can one be a "transgressor from the womb?"


Hello buddy
Hopefully this can shed some light for you.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This woman is pregnant. She has a child in the womb. She comes from heaven, so she is not earthly, but heavenly (spiritual) A woman gives birth to babies and she multiplies. This is God's kingdom, depicted as a woman, because she produces children. His kingdom first produced a male child which we know is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the firstborn, of the dead, and this woman will produce many many more children after him.

But amongst these children, the enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat. Christ said let both grow together, and at the harvest we will separate them, or else if we uproot the tares now, we will also uproot the wheat.

The verse above is referring not of a physical womb, but a spiritual womb. So from the beginning of their christian walk, they went the wrong way, but God knows all things, and knew what would happen right from the start that they were bad seeds.


Isa 48: 8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened : for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously , and wast called a transgressor from the womb.(KJV)

This verse is referring to Israel. At the beginning of the chapter is says

Isaiah 48:1 "Hear this O house of Jacob which are called the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

God is angry at them. God also called them out of the womb. In fact they were called first, because God made them a nation to serve him only.

Yea, thou heardest not (Israel did not listen)
yea, thou knewest not (you didn't know what I know)
from that time that thine ear was not opened (when you strayed)
for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb (Israel loved to serve other gods, right from the beginning when Moses lead them out of Egypt, after all the miracles God performed for them, they still didn't get it.)



The last two verses talk about how Jesus emphasized on the fact that the kingdom of heaven belonged to "such as these."

Two questions about the last two verses:
Is Jesus actually saying that children are without sin?

No, he is saying that we have to be like children. A child learns of their piers. A child is innocent, trusting, and will take in whatever is given to them. We have to be like a child to learn of Christ. Not wise in our own opinions, knowing it all, but humble, trusting in him. Learning all that he teaches us, starting over.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
 

Very wise. I should not have posted it. May Yahweh bless you and hold you near always. jack

Jack,
Why do you say you should not have posted it? I am not downplaying or refuting your vision. I believe that God can speak to men in visions. My problem is that I cannot make anything out of visions. My opinions and beliefs are based on the written word, which can be taken objectively. Now all of us have a subjective side, and you are fully entitled to base your faith on what you have seen.

I have always come to believe that our weaknesses are a result of our own wrong choices. We were born pure and innocent, and not corrupted and diseased. We were born with a clean slate. So when someone says that we were born in sin, it does not make sense to me.

Also, when someone says that we have a tendency to sin because of our parents' sins, it does not make sense to me. I need some Bible verses that say the same.

Another question that I want to ask some friends is: How can an individual choose Jesus when they are in the womb? I need help (and definitely some verses) understanding this. I don't mind being proven wrong.

I have written a few questions above, which still remain unanswered by some friends. Now, I understand that everything cannot be answered in words, and at times we need the intervention of the Holy Spirit. I pray for the same.

Now, I am not asking you to answer all my questions:) On the whole, I have been blessed by knowing you, and therefore I always welcome your contributions. Also,
 
Jack,
Why do you say you should not have posted it? I am not downplaying or refuting your vision. I believe that God can speak to men in visions. My problem is that I cannot make anything out of visions. My opinions and beliefs are based on the written word, which can be taken objectively. Now all of us have a subjective side, and you are fully entitled to base your faith on what you have seen.

I have always come to believe that our weaknesses are a result of our own wrong choices. We were born pure and innocent, and not corrupted and diseased. We were born with a clean slate. So when someone says that we were born in sin, it does not make sense to me.

Also, when someone says that we have a tendency to sin because of our parents' sins, it does not make sense to me. I need some Bible verses that say the same.

Another question that I want to ask some friends is: How can an individual choose Jesus when they are in the womb? I need help (and definitely some verses) understanding this. I don't mind being proven wrong.

I have written a few questions above, which still remain unanswered by some friends. Now, I understand that everything cannot be answered in words, and at times we need the intervention of the Holy Spirit. I pray for the same.

Now, I am not asking you to answer all my questions:) On the whole, I have been blessed by knowing you, and therefore I always welcome your contributions. Also,

What you said is wise. There is no need for further comment. When I read your reply I realized that this was just for me, the vision, and it always comforted me before being convinced by the Holy Spirit and since. Your advice is true and wise, nothing more, nothing less, and your advice is a blessing. Thank you brother, and keep doing the good works you do here in the CCR.......The Love of Yahweh, God is here.
 
David wrote of those of whom are exceptionally wicked. Their first words, as an analogy, from birth were wicked. Are we not born in sin?-Psalms 58:3

The way God’s covenant people have acted shows the nation to be a “transgressor from the belly.” From its birth-as a nation-and for its entire history, the nation of Israel has built up a record of rebellion. (Isaiah 48:8) This is also an analogy.

Jesus showed at Matthew 19:14 is that the reason “the kingdom of God belongs to such” was not because they were baptized or that they were without sin, but because they were teachable and trusting. To receive God’s Kingdom, we must imitate the humility and teachableness of young children.

Christians are commanded to be “babes as to badness,” yet “full-grown in powers of understanding.”-Matthew 18:4; Luke 18:16, 17; 1 Corinthians 14:20.