No living faith without works

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No one claimed works make salvation happen. You just can't pay attention.

It's not that the other member can't pay attention.

It's that those that believe that works are not necessary always will strawman your statements.

They'll keep saying that WORKS DON'T SAVE....
as if any Christian believes that they do.

They will not get into their head that you (and I) are referring to AFTER salvation.

After salvation is when we do good works for God.

Good works BEFORE salvation are great for other persons...
but useless for God.

You also suggested I said works earn salvation. Youre still not listening. You see the word "works" and your brain goes into for memorization mode.
Yes sir.
That's what happens to those OPPOSED to good works.

And OPPOSED they are or they wouldn't be debating this.


For the one millionth time works complete faith just like James said. No where does Scripture say faith alone ...oh wait it does but before that it says we are justified by works AND not.....keep ignoring it or explaining it away.
(y)
 
It's not about needing to be shown. James emphasis in his letter is simply that works follow salvation, and that an individual who doesn't have works may not have been created in Christ Jesus unto good works. By requiring works for salvation, you make the individual co-justifier with God. He is not. His works testify to the work of God in justifying him.
Here is what James stated:

faith
without works
is a dead faith.


a tv
without a picture
is a dead tv


a radio
that doesn't function
is a dead radio

a car
that doesn't run
is a dead car


faith
without works
is a dead faith
 
Here is what James stated:

faith
without works
is a dead faith.


a tv
without a picture
is a dead tv


a radio
that doesn't function
is a dead radio

a car
that doesn't run
is a dead car


faith
without works
is a dead faith
None of this negates what I wrote. One would expect a faith that is void of works is dead because we were created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Works are a product of being in Christ. That is, the condition of being in Christ and the consequent work of Christ in the individual always results in works. Works are part and parcel of what it is to be in Christ.
 
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None of this negates what I wrote. One would expect a faith that is void of works is dead because we were created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Works are a product of being in Christ. That is, the condition of being in Christ and the consequent work of Christ in the individual always results in works. Works are part and parcel of what it is to be in Christ.
Agreed.

Works are part and parcel of being in Jesus.

So if we do NOT have works...we have a faith that is dead and not a living faith pleasing to God.
 
Oops.
There goes one of those silly questions I was discussing with you on a different thread.

WHY are you asking HOW MANY WORKS must be done?

Are you afraid you haven't done enough?
Are you afraid you've done too many?
You still don’t understand. If I say it costs money to get into a movie theater and you ask how much, would I just say that’s a dumb question? No, I would tell you the price.

When you claim something is required, whether works, effort, or obedience, it’s reasonable to ask how much or what kind. If you can’t answer, I might assume the answer is two good works. How disappointed would someone be if they drove across town thinking the price was $2, only to find it’s $15 and the movie’s already starting?

The point is simple: if you say something is required, you are responsible for clarifying exactly what that requirement is.
 
You still don’t understand. If I say it costs money to get into a movie theater and you ask how much, would I just say that’s a dumb question? No, I would tell you the price.

When you claim something is required, whether works, effort, or obedience, it’s reasonable to ask how much or what kind. If you can’t answer, I might assume the answer is two good works. How disappointed would someone be if they drove across town thinking the price was $2, only to find it’s $15 and the movie’s already starting?

The point is simple: if you say something is required, you are responsible for clarifying exactly what that requirement is.
Replied to in the other post.
 
God has always wanted us to do good works. We do those works regularly in theory, but often fail through our nature, which is a sin. That makes us sinners, and the wage of sin is death...
In the Old Testament that death was passed on to an animal that was sacrificed, then God, not liking the "sin, sacrifice, sin again" cycle, sent His son to be the sufficient, sacrificed lamb for one and all, should they believe in Him. Not just believing in His existence, even the demons do that, and shudder. They know what's coming next!
That faith will involve giving ourselves to the Lord and living as He wishes to the best of our abilities, works will inevitably be a part of this and will be seen, the same way our words display what's in our hearts.
That's what saves, Jesus and faith in Him. That faith is shown with works, but the works themselves can't save as we've failed, fallen short of perfection and are sinners. God did it and we're recipients. He saved us and still wants us to do good, even though we fail. It's right to do good. It's just that we failed to do it all the time and thankfully accept a saviour in Jesus.
Standard
An extension of your premise is warranted. The least recognized concept of salvation is that we are saved body, soul and spirit. Our resurrection will not be just the part of our grey matter that "contains" what we call faith. We are a soul that has a body, they are indivisible, thus we are indivisible. We can not "get our souls saved" without being fully bodily saved. We can not just claim to love God in our minds without loving God with our entire being, body and soul.

In the same way faith and works are inseparable but there is actually a bigger and more unifying framework that is left out our "Salvation by".....dogmas. Jesus and Paul make it clear, that the reborn person, the converted person will come to understand that salvation at its core is only about one thing...Love.

We are to love like Jesus loved, who he loved, how deeply he loved, how sacrificially His love is. It is easy to dismiss the Hebrew Bible model of sacrifice because we restrict it to some kind of animal thing. It was a long learning curve to teach humans that any right relationship with God is based on our sacrifice, often many kinds of sacrifice and always sacrifice for the right reasons. Many sacrificed their 1st born sons via pledging them to God for life. All who sacrificed weekly cost them time, money and even food off their table. At the end of that age, God showed us what the ultimate sacrifice was in Jesus the Christ. If the cross of Jesus does not teach us that love requires loving sacrifice then we have no hope. If it does not teach us that we too are called to take up our cross daily and deliver sacrificial love then we have purposefully reject the heart of the Gospel of Christ.

We have replaced all concept of our sacrifice. We reject all important forms of sacrifice. We "are guaranteed" a free ticket to heaven by nodding to a 60 pulpit prayer. Thus our "sacrifice" is that we "make room for Jesus in our heart."

Paul made it clear, if your horizontal and vertical relationships in life are not driven by love then it is just "noise." Jesus was crystal clear, if you love God you must obey God and submit to His transformation of your life. If you love God you must love your neighbor. Jesus story of the "Good Samaritan" is a story we love to tell but it is usually taught as a story showing the hypocrisy of the Jewish clergy. Is not. It is a clear statement that loving your neighbor requires personal involvement, personal care and an uncapped expenditure of money to bring God's love to those most in need. In 21st Century Protestant and Non- Denominational Christianity we assume these people are the responsibility. This is based on the delusional belief that we are in the "saving souls" business.

And here we sit trying to split hairs with 45,000 competing Christian dogmas trying to find comfort, self-interest, self-righteousness, convenience and personal freedom of choice in all matters. Way more that half of those attending Christian service don't even give money yet we disparage those O.T. Jews who paid 10% of all they owned to support God's work and added a weekly sacrifice out of their flocks, cattle, crops showing weekly they were willing to take food off their table weekly to obey God.

The New Testament is clear. There is no division between our souls and the rest of our body. We are souls. You can attempt dissect humans into physical, mental and spiritual components for purposes of making your dogmas work. That is why there 45,000 competing Christian dogmas. We are trying to recruit people of the same race, same income level, same politics, same education level, same knowledge worker and same culture. That is why our Protestant and non-denominal churches look the way they do. There is zero correlation between super comfortable dogma based recruiting and sacrificial and loving embracing of all who seek God.

If you think what you define as faith alone will save you, read 1st Corinthians 13 and Matthew 25.
Paul consistently teaches that salvation is by faith alone, apart from works of any kind. When he says “works of the law,” he means the ceremonial or legalistic works that some were trying to rely on for righteousness, not the good works that naturally flow from faith. Faith is never “completed by works” in the sense that works earn salvation. James 2 shows that works demonstrate that faith is real, they don’t produce justification. Abraham was justified by faith (Romans 4:3), and his works proved that faith was genuine. In other words, works are the evidence of salvation, not the cause. Paul mentions works all over the place, but he consistently separates them from justification. Works follow salvation, they do not make it happen.
Paul never says "works of any kind". He is helping Jews understand that "works of the law" and works oriented thinking will not save. If Christianity was against "works based religion" then Christ did not have to die on the Cross....the ultimate work of love. He just need to tell people to accept him in their heart...
 
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Standard
An extension of your premise is warranted. The least recognized concept of salvation is that we are saved body, soul and spirit. Our resurrection will not be just the part of our grey matter that "contains" what we call faith. We are a soul that has a body, they are indivisible, thus we are indivisible. We can not "get our souls saved" without being fully bodily saved. We can not just claim to love God in our minds without loving God with our entire being, body and soul.

In the same way faith and works are inseparable but there is actually a bigger and more unifying framework that is left out our "Salvation by".....dogmas. Jesus and Paul make it clear, that the reborn person, the converted person will come to understand that salvation at its core is only about one thing...Love.

We are to love like Jesus loved, who he loved, how deeply he loved, how sacrificially His love is. It is easy to dismiss the Hebrew Bible model of sacrifice because we restrict it to some kind of animal thing. It was a long learning curve to teach humans that any right relationship with God is based on our sacrifice, often many kinds of sacrifice and always sacrifice for the right reasons. Many sacrificed their 1st born sons via pledging them to God for life. All who sacrificed weekly cost them time, money and even food off their table. At the end of that age, God showed us what the ultimate sacrifice was in Jesus the Christ. If the cross of Jesus does not teach us that love requires loving sacrifice then we have no hope. If it does not teach us that we too are called to take up our cross daily and deliver sacrificial love then we have purposefully reject the heart of the Gospel of Christ.

We have replaced all concept of our sacrifice. We reject all important forms of sacrifice. We "are guaranteed" a free ticket to heaven by nodding to a 60 pulpit prayer. Thus our "sacrifice" is that we "make room for Jesus in our heart."

Paul made it clear, if your horizontal and vertical relationships in life are not driven by love then it is just "noise." Jesus was crystal clear, if you love God you must obey God and submit to His transformation of your life. If you love God you must love your neighbor. Jesus story of the "Good Samaritan" is a story we love to tell but it is usually taught as a story showing the hypocrisy of the Jewish clergy. Is not. It is a clear statement that loving your neighbor requires personal involvement, personal care and an uncapped expenditure of money to bring God's love to those most in need. In 21st Century Protestant and Non- Denominational Christianity we assume these people are the responsibility. This is based on the delusional belief that we are in the "saving souls" business.

And here we sit trying to split hairs with 45,000 competing Christian dogmas trying to find comfort, self-interest, self-righteousness, convenience and personal freedom of choice in all matters. Way more that half of those attending Christian service don't even give money yet we disparage those O.T. Jews who paid 10% of all they owned to support God's work and added a weekly sacrifice out of their flocks, cattle, crops showing weekly they were willing to take food off their table weekly to obey God.

The New Testament is clear. There is no division between our souls and the rest of our body. We are souls. You can attempt dissect humans into physical, mental and spiritual components for purposes of making your dogmas work. That is why there 45,000 competing Christian dogmas. We are trying to recruit people of the same race, same income level, same politics, same education level, same knowledge worker and same culture. That is why our Protestant and non-denominal churches look the way they do. There is zero correlation between super comfortable dogma based recruiting and sacrificial and loving embracing of all who seek God.

If you think what you define as faith alone will save you, read 1st Corinthians 13 and Matthew 25.

Paul never says "works of any kind". He is helping Jews understand that "works of the law" and works oriented thinking will not save. If Christianity was against "works based religion" then Christ did not have to die on the Cross....the ultimate work of love. He just need to tell people to accept him in their heart...
 
There are two words that are usually missing in the faith and works debate.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

The first word is "grace".

The second word is "gift".

We are, in fact, saved by grace through faith...

And our salvation is a free gift given to us because we believed in Jesus.
 
There are two words that are usually missing in the faith and works debate.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

The first word is "grace".

The second word is "gift".

We are, in fact, saved by grace through faith...

And our salvation is a free gift given to us because we believed in Jesus.
Could you show us one Christian that denies this?

You left out Eph 2:10.
I do wonder why.
 
Standard
An extension of your premise is warranted. The least recognized concept of salvation is that we are saved body, soul and spirit. Our resurrection will not be just the part of our grey matter that "contains" what we call faith. We are a soul that has a body, they are indivisible, thus we are indivisible. We can not "get our souls saved" without being fully bodily saved. We can not just claim to love God in our minds without loving God with our entire being, body and soul.

In the same way faith and works are inseparable but there is actually a bigger and more unifying framework that is left out our "Salvation by".....dogmas. Jesus and Paul make it clear, that the reborn person, the converted person will come to understand that salvation at its core is only about one thing...Love.

We are to love like Jesus loved, who he loved, how deeply he loved, how sacrificially His love is. It is easy to dismiss the Hebrew Bible model of sacrifice because we restrict it to some kind of animal thing. It was a long learning curve to teach humans that any right relationship with God is based on our sacrifice, often many kinds of sacrifice and always sacrifice for the right reasons. Many sacrificed their 1st born sons via pledging them to God for life. All who sacrificed weekly cost them time, money and even food off their table. At the end of that age, God showed us what the ultimate sacrifice was in Jesus the Christ. If the cross of Jesus does not teach us that love requires loving sacrifice then we have no hope. If it does not teach us that we too are called to take up our cross daily and deliver sacrificial love then we have purposefully reject the heart of the Gospel of Christ.

We have replaced all concept of our sacrifice. We reject all important forms of sacrifice. We "are guaranteed" a free ticket to heaven by nodding to a 60 pulpit prayer. Thus our "sacrifice" is that we "make room for Jesus in our heart."

Paul made it clear, if your horizontal and vertical relationships in life are not driven by love then it is just "noise." Jesus was crystal clear, if you love God you must obey God and submit to His transformation of your life. If you love God you must love your neighbor. Jesus story of the "Good Samaritan" is a story we love to tell but it is usually taught as a story showing the hypocrisy of the Jewish clergy. Is not. It is a clear statement that loving your neighbor requires personal involvement, personal care and an uncapped expenditure of money to bring God's love to those most in need. In 21st Century Protestant and Non- Denominational Christianity we assume these people are the responsibility. This is based on the delusional belief that we are in the "saving souls" business.

And here we sit trying to split hairs with 45,000 competing Christian dogmas trying to find comfort, self-interest, self-righteousness, convenience and personal freedom of choice in all matters. Way more that half of those attending Christian service don't even give money yet we disparage those O.T. Jews who paid 10% of all they owned to support God's work and added a weekly sacrifice out of their flocks, cattle, crops showing weekly they were willing to take food off their table weekly to obey God.

The New Testament is clear. There is no division between our souls and the rest of our body. We are souls. You can attempt dissect humans into physical, mental and spiritual components for purposes of making your dogmas work. That is why there 45,000 competing Christian dogmas. We are trying to recruit people of the same race, same income level, same politics, same education level, same knowledge worker and same culture. That is why our Protestant and non-denominal churches look the way they do. There is zero correlation between super comfortable dogma based recruiting and sacrificial and loving embracing of all who seek God.

If you think what you define as faith alone will save you, read 1st Corinthians 13 and Matthew 25.

Paul never says "works of any kind". He is helping Jews understand that "works of the law" and works oriented thinking will not save. If Christianity was against "works based religion" then Christ did not have to die on the Cross....the ultimate work of love. He just need to tell people to accept him in their heart...

I didn’t say Paul used the phrase “works of any kind.” My point is that Paul teaches that no human effort can justify us before God. And his argument goes beyond just Jewish ceremonial laws. Look at Romans 4:4–5 and Ephesians 2:8–9. His whole point is that justification is received by faith, not by works.

Christ’s death on the cross wasn’t necessary because people just lacked the right instruction. It was necessary because no amount of human works could deal with sin. The cross is Christ’s work on our behalf, not our work for God. Salvation comes through trusting in what He accomplished.

And I didn’t say Christianity is against works. Ephesians 2:10 says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. Works matter, but they are the result of salvation, not the cause of it. Faith saves, and genuine faith produces works.
 
You still don’t understand. If I say it costs money to get into a movie theater and you ask how much, would I just say that’s a dumb question? No, I would tell you the price.

When you claim something is required, whether works, effort, or obedience, it’s reasonable to ask how much or what kind. If you can’t answer, I might assume the answer is two good works. How disappointed would someone be if they drove across town thinking the price was $2, only to find it’s $15 and the movie’s already starting?

The point is simple: if you say something is required, you are responsible for clarifying exactly what that requirement is.
You know Just...
maybe you would have been better off UNDER THE LAW
since you don't seem to be able to grasp GRACE.

Really,,, what does OBEY GOD mean to you anyway?

How could you be a long-time Christian and still have these questions.

I say we must obey God...
and YOU ask HOW MUCH??

Are you so insecure in your salvation?
 
You know Just...
maybe you would have been better off UNDER THE LAW
since you don't seem to be able to grasp GRACE.

Really,,, what does OBEY GOD mean to you anyway?

How could you be a long-time Christian and still have these questions.
Who said I was a long time Christian? Maybe I’m a few weeks in or a few years in. Doesn’t really matter.
I say we must obey God...
and YOU ask HOW MUCH??

Are you so insecure in your salvation?
Again, dismissing questions. You say something is required. You are now responsible for explaining what the requirement is. If you say we must obey God, you are responsible for explaining what we must obey and to what level we must obey it. You mentioned before the ten commandments. What is the correct way we are to honor the sabbath? Are we to turn the other cheek and give up all of our belongings when we are robbed? Are we to sell everything and give it to the poor?

I don’t think it’s me that doesn’t understand grace. I would say rather it is someone who believes works are a requirement to earn and maintain a free gift that doesn’t understand grace.
 
Who said I was a long time Christian? Maybe I’m a few weeks in or a few years in. Doesn’t really matter.

Again, dismissing questions. You say something is required. You are now responsible for explaining what the requirement is. If you say we must obey God, you are responsible for explaining what we must obey and to what level we must obey it. You mentioned before the ten commandments. What is the correct way we are to honor the sabbath? Are we to turn the other cheek and give up all of our belongings when we are robbed? Are we to sell everything and give it to the poor?

I don’t think it’s me that doesn’t understand grace. I would say rather it is someone who believes works are a requirement to earn and maintain a free gift that doesn’t understand grace.
Apparently you have not accepted my understanding of scripture in
my post no. 8764 in the Loss of Salvation thread.....
and I spent a good deal of time writing it because you seemed sincere.

Can't do better than that.

I leave you to figure out what it means to obey God.


 
Apparently you have not accepted my understanding of scripture in
my post no. 8764 in the Loss of Salvation thread.....
and I spent a good deal of time writing it because you seemed sincere.

Can't do better than that.

I leave you to figure out what it means to obey God.



No need for that attitude; we're all having a conversation about God and what He's asked of us. I'd like to think praying for someone would come before insults and demeaning them.

We are saved by Jesus and our faith in Him, and are saved for good works, not by them. I've also posted on how God wants us to do good and always will. We're just not saved by it as we weren't able to do so. That doesn't mean we don't try to be godly, we just have His Grace for where we fail....