Not by works, not by "only believe", and not by faith alone either

[know1]

What a genuine believer means by faith in Christ "alone," faith that "trusts in Christ alone for salvation" (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) that remains "alone" (barren of works) is not the same message.

Again, the word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Sorry sir, my bad.
I misunderstood what you were talking about. I thought you were saying that James was talking about having faith in Christ alone, in place of faith being alone is dead.

So what kind of faith is "that?" (James 2:14). Empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works). *In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - *James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

But understand this. I never said, nor have I been teaching that salvation is based on a merit system of works, or that we are saved, or made righteous, by our good works.
I disagree however with your interpretation of what James was saying.
He wasn't talking so must about the genuineness of faith other than the fact that works must accompany it, but a distinction between a faith that works, as in, the kind that moves the hand of God, and the kind that doesn't.
Faith from the heart without a corresponding work in conjunction to and in line with your faith in a particular thing, like salvation, is dead or without effect. Meaning, nothing will happen.
What verse 14 is saying is, without works to your faith, there is no salvation, healing, protection...etc.
James is saying, without corresponding works, can that kind of faith save, heal, protect, preserve, make whole, or deliver?
That's definition of the word used for, saved, in that verse.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

Giving to someone in need is only a good work, it has nothing to do with faith from the heart.
James' point is, having faith without the work that corresponds with the words, or without acting on, "be warm and filled", like giving them food and clothing, is completely useless. They're just empty words.
Faith without corresponding works is just like that, it's useless and without effect.
The act of giving must accompany the words of faith, "be warm and filled".

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith could a Christian do which are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that we do as Christians which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works/works of faith from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works/works of faith) argument is bogus.

Works of faith are still works and we are saved through faith, not works. Paul made is clear that we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:9); not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5); He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9).

Works of faith are indeed works, but they are not works of the law or good works, they are different.
Both works of the law and good works are works that we do, such as giving to the poor, going to church, doing nice things for others, all because we are able to. God's hand does not have to move because there is no weakness or inability to do for others on your part, so God's strength and power is not needed in the situations like the above mentioned.
Let's say there are two of you who want to go to Mexico to evangelize, and some in your church tell you not to eat their food or drink their water because everyone that goes always gets sick. But you and your friend refuse to accept what they say, telling them that you will be fine and will not get sick, because the word of God says,

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

And so they both go and pray over their food and water because they know it is not God's will for them to get sick from their food and water, so long as they receive it with thanksgiving, sanctifying it with the word of God in prayer. And so they pray saying, 'Father you said in your word that everything is made clean through thanksgiving and prayer, speaking your word of faith over it, and so we thank you for this food and for making it healthy, fit, and nutritious for our bodies according to your word, in Jesus' name, amen.'
One of them has no doubt that the food is made clean and healthy for him, KNOWING that God is faithful who promise to make the food and water clean and healthy according to his faith, and so he eats and drinks what is put before him without any fear or doubt, knowing that he will be fine.
The other person however, is not so sure nothing will happen to him. He remembers the testimony of the others who got sick, but he goes ahead and prays the same prayer and both eats and drinks what is put before him as well, unsure of the end results. He wants to believe, but he doesn't know if God will protect him by making everything clean.
And so the one who truly believed, never got sick, but his friend did because he got off into doubt.
The work of faith was first, the man's confession that nothing would happen to him and that he would be fine, and the second work of faith was eating and drinking what was put in front of him without any doubt. He acted on what he believed in his heart and God saw to it that his works of faith produced what the man said would happen.
Speaking, eating, and drinking in faith, is neither a good work, nor is it covered under the works of the law.
And neither can the man protect himself from getting sick with his own power, strengths, or abilities. That's where God comes in and makes the man's works of faith produce the fruit he called into being.
That's where God's strength is made perfect in the man's weakness or inability to protect himself. That is what works of faith does. It moves the hand of God in the situation you initiated and applied your faith to.
But to the man who ate outside of faith, or in doubt, he got what Romans promised.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It's not saying that he was damned to hell, just that a curse was laid on him for getting out of faith, which is sin.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

This is simply talking about the works of the law. It has nothing to do with works of faith.

 

[know1]

must for why, please?

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That's the simple version to your question as to why we MUST have works that correspond with our faith.
Sorry it took me so long to reply.

 

[know1]

And that is a separate issue. There are two biblical conditions which must be met in order to receive the gift of eternal life: (1) repentance toward God and (2) faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

What we were dealing with was the attempt by some to make salvation as complicated as possible. God does not make things complicated.

In all actuality, this is one of the simplest things in the bible. It's not hard, nor is it complicated. Part of the problem is that your all grown up. A child has a much easier time understanding this that an adult.

 

[followjesus]

I like alot of what you said, I would ask though, where are we told to have " faith in the finished works of the cross?" or is it that we are to Have Faith in Jesus ?


faith comes from Gods Word to all who believe. a couple examples. Noah found Grace in Gods sight, so God warned Him of the coming flood, and gave Him instructions to build the ark. Noah Believed what God told Him was coming, so He moved with fear and built an ark to the saving of His Household, and became the heir of the" righteousness of Faith"

Abraham God speaks to Him and says "abram, get up and leave this place and go to a land I will show you, and i will make you the father of many nations, and all the peoples of earth will be blessed through your seed" abram, Believes what God said to Him, so He gets up packs His stuff and sets out Not even Knowing where He was going, He believed God therefore He obeyed from that belief.

I agree with much regarding your post, I would though examine whether were actually told to have faith in the "finished works of the Cross" whatever that means because it seems to mean different things to people, or if we are told over and over again to Have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel as a whole meaning His birthin the flesh,his Life, Ministry, death , resurrection and ascention to the right Hand of God.

 

[followjesus]

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That's the simple version to your question as to why we MUST have works that correspond with our faith.
Sorry it took me so long to reply.

yes the modern church has substituted a dead faith, because it allows people to live for themselves according to thier will rather than repentance and the will of God. there are so many warnings against this, from the beginning of the Gospel.

matthew 7 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

very clearly Here the foundation to build upon is to Hear, and apply Jesus words this woise mans House will never fall.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


again very clearly Here, the sand is to hear Jesus words and not apply them, this foolish mans House will fall with a great crash and elsewhere in lukes account of this teaching, it says " and its destruction will be complete"


when Jesus says " therefore" it connects to what He is saying prior, the reason He said Not every one who calls me Lord will enter the Kingdom but He that doesth the will of My Father" ...and then says therefore whoever Hears my sayings and does them....is because the Gospels are the will of God, Jesus taught Gods Will. He says this repeatedly. My words are not mine, they are the Fathers who sent me....probably 15 times that i can think of right now Jesus says "Im speaking the Words of God" and God Like anyone in authority speaks thier will. Jesus was promised to do this as far back as Moses in deuteronomy 18, and is confirmed in acts 3 by Peter Jesus Not only died for us, He was the One God sent to speak His eternal will to the world.

deuteronomy 18:18-19 "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. "

Peter confirms this is a reference to Jesus and His words Here

acts 3:22 "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Jesus made many references to this Himself

John 12:48-50 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


its a grave error for people to think we simply believe the cross and were saved. What Jesus said, is the eternal word of God, the eternal covenant is spoken By the Lord Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

Works of faith are indeed works, but they are not works of the law or good works, they are different.

Works of faith are indeed good works and we cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and we are saved FOR good works, not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Both works of the law and good works are works that we do, such as giving to the poor, going to church, doing nice things for others, all because we are able to.

Again, you cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law. I clearly summed it up in post #22 and you seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

This is simply talking about the works of the law. It has nothing to do with works of faith.

Works of faith are good works which fall under the moral aspect of the law. Are you implying that Paul is saying that faith + works of faith are accounted as righteousness in Romans 4:5-6 and just not specific works of the law? Paul is not saying that we are saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law minus the moral aspect of the law), like I was erroneously taught in my youth when I still attended the Roman Catholic church.

 

[mailmandan]

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"Faith without works" is dead does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works (as if works are the source of life in faith). That would be like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit. It takes a living faith to produce works (Ephesians 2:5-10), just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Faith that produces no works at all is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith, dead faith (James 2:14-17).

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words/works will give evidences for, or against a man being in a state righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

That's the simple version to your question as to why we MUST have works that correspond with our faith.
Sorry it took me so long to reply.

Must have works in order to establish faith and become saved or will have works if our faith is alive and not dead and we truly are saved?

 

[graceNpeace]

"Faith without works" is dead does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works (as if works are the source of life in faith). That would be like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit. It takes a living faith to produce works (Ephesians 2:5-10), just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Faith that produces no works at all is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith, dead faith (James 2:14-17).

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words/works will give evidences for, or against a man being in a state righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Must have works in order to establish faith and become saved or will have works if our faith is alive and not dead and we truly are saved?

Sadly, the fact that is so well explained will not guarantee its acceptance by all, but, it gets an enthusiastic round of applause from me!

 

[mailmandan]

its a grave error for people to think we simply believe the cross and were saved. What Jesus said, is the eternal word of God, the eternal covenant is spoken By the Lord Jesus.

Be careful what you say about the cross. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed (Romans 3:24-26).

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[mailmandan]

matthew 7 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.

Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

very clearly Here the foundation to build upon is to Hear, and apply Jesus words this woise mans House will never fall.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as certain people would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him.

The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

 

[preacher4truth]

its a grave error for people to think we simply believe the cross and were saved.

Then the grave error is yours, you do not believe the Gospel.

 

[dcontroversal]

Then the grave error is yours, you do not believe the Gospel.

Amen to that.....imagine the simplicity that is found in Christ and how it is rejected by statements such as his....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I mean...how simple is that.....God saves those that believe the preaching of the cross....and yet many will ride their false view straight to the pit while rejecting the simple truth found in that verse.........

 

[PeterJens]

Why do people walk away from fellowship?
They get hurt and find it impossible to forgive.

A lack of forgiveness kills the soul, not recognising having your heart sorted is the only
way out into the light.

 

[know1]

I like alot of what you said, I would ask though, where are we told to have " faith in the finished works of the cross?" or is it that we are to Have Faith in Jesus ?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

What the bible means is simply to have faith in what the triune God did through Jesus' death on the cross. In other words, on the Baptist's side of things, God has done all He needed to do through Jesus' work on the cross, to get you into heaven.
How that helps the believer in life, I don't know.

I agree with much regarding your post, I would though examine whether were actually told to have faith in the "finished works of the Cross" whatever that means because it seems to mean different things to people, or if we are told over and over again to Have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel as a whole meaning His birthin the flesh,his Life, Ministry, death , resurrection and ascention to the right Hand of God.

I would ask you, how does having faith in Jesus' finished work on the cross, helps you?
Does it add anything to your faith in God or His word?
Does it do anything for you?
Again, I don't know.
My faith is in God's faithfulness to perform His promises, so I focus on the promises of His word, such as

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

 

[know1]

Works of faith are indeed good works and we cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and we are saved FOR good works, not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Again, you cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law. I clearly summed it up in post #22 and you seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

Works of faith are good works which fall under the moral aspect of the law. Are you implying that Paul is saying that faith + works of faith are accounted as righteousness in Romans 4:5-6 and just not specific works of the law? Paul is not saying that we are saved by "these" works (works of faith) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law minus the moral aspect of the law), like I was erroneously taught in my youth when I still attended the Roman Catholic church.

Please tell me sir, if you do not receive Jesus personally and say the sinner's prayer verbally with your mouth after believing in Jesus' finished work on the cross, but only believe in your heart Jesus' finished work on the cross, go to church, give to the poor, help the pastor, study the bible, and the like, is that person saved or not?

 

[know1]

"Faith without works" is dead does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works (as if works are the source of life in faith). That would be like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit. It takes a living faith to produce works (Ephesians 2:5-10), just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Faith that produces no works at all is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith, dead faith (James 2:14-17).

No, that would be like saying a tree can't live without it getting water. The fruit is the end product. You won't get the fruit until after you do a work.
A good example of that would be, Peter commanding the man with the impotent feet at the gate Beautiful to stand, and then pulling him to his feet. The work of faith Peter did what two fold. First he spoke words of faith, which according to Jesus, is a work, and the second work he did was, he pulled the man to his feet. The fruit was the man's feet and ankles getting healed instantly.
Without Peter's words and work of faith, the man would not have received his healing.
First Peter had faith in his heart for that man's healing, then he acted on that faith by speaking and pulling the man to his feet, which is known as a work of faith, and the end result is the fruit of the believing in his heart and acting on that faith.
Again, without that work, the man never would have received his healing.
If it was a good work, which is the same as saying, "well doing", God's hand is not needed. But a work of faith involving healing or salvation, where we are unable to save or heal, God's hand is needed in the situation to finish the job we started.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar.

You sir are adding to scripture what is not there, and in the process, changing the meaning.
James says that the scripture that said Abraham believed God WASN'T FULFILLED UNTIL AFTER he offered up his son.
Isn't written that God "speaks of things which be not as though they were"?
According to James, that's what God was doing.
James is clearly showing that Abraham was justified after the work of faith, which was offering up his son, believing that God would resurrect him. That's why he told the young men that he told to stay back while he and his son went on, that both he and his son "WILL COME AGAIN UNTO YOU".
He spoke his faith right there, and God made it happen.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Thayer's definition;
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1342

Strong's definition;
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

From what I see, the word translated to, "justified", means JUSTIFIED. In other words, he was justified after the works of faith, just like it says in plain English.
That is if you don't try to change the meaning to fit your doctrine.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words/works will give evidences for, or against a man being in a state righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Must have works in order to establish faith and become saved or will have works if our faith is alive and not dead and we truly are saved?

You really are complicating, as well as twisting, a very simple sentence and matter.
It's not hard to understand if you just accept it as it is written.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Faith without works if dead.
That is the truth of the gospel.
Even as Paul said about WOF. Believe in your heart and say out your mouth. Believe and act, faith and a work.
That is how faith works.
It's that simple.

 

[mailmandan]

Please tell me sir, if you do not receive Jesus personally and say the sinner's prayer verbally with your mouth after believing in Jesus' finished work on the cross, but only believe in your heart Jesus' finished work on the cross, go to church, give to the poor, help the pastor, study the bible, and the like, is that person saved or not?

Why would I say the sinner's prayer verbally with my mouth AFTER believing in Christ's finished work on the cross? I was saved the moment that I believed in Him/believed the gospel (Romans 1:16), so why would I need to follow up with a prayer or some type of work in order to be saved? I was saved the moment that I BELIEVED and not at some point later. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

 

[mailmandan]

No, that would be like saying a tree can't live without it getting water. The fruit is the end product. You won't get the fruit until after you do a work.

Does dead faith produce works in order to become a living faith or does faith produce works BECAUSE it's a living faith? Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or does a tree produce fruit BECAUSE it's a living tree? There is no life for a tree without water, just as there is no spiritual life for man without living water (John 4:10;14; 7:37-39).

A good example of that would be, Peter commanding the man with the impotent feet at the gate Beautiful to stand, and then pulling him to his feet. The work of faith Peter did what two fold. First he spoke words of faith, which according to Jesus, is a work, and the second work he did was, he pulled the man to his feet. The fruit was the man's feet and ankles getting healed instantly.
Without Peter's words and work of faith, the man would not have received his healing.
First Peter had faith in his heart for that man's healing, then he acted on that faith by speaking and pulling the man to his feet, which is known as a work of faith, and the end result is the fruit of the believing in his heart and acting on that faith.
Again, without that work, the man never would have received his healing.

There is a difference between receiving a healing after performing a work of faith and receiving eternal life based on works. Believers do not act on their faith in order to receive eternal life but BECAUSE they have received eternal life. Believers are made alive in Christ and are saved UNTO/FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

If it was a good work, which is the same as saying, "well doing", God's hand is not needed. But a work of faith involving healing or salvation, where we are unable to save or heal, God's hand is needed in the situation to finish the job we started.

If you are saying that man is saved by good works, please tell us, how many good works must you accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?

You sir are adding to scripture what is not there, and in the process, changing the meaning.

Not at all. I properly harmonized scripture with scripture and did not change the meaning.

James says that the scripture that said Abraham believed God WASN'T FULFILLED UNTIL AFTER he offered up his son.
Isn't written that God "speaks of things which be not as though they were"?
According to James, that's what God was doing.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is clearly showing that Abraham was justified after the work of faith, which was offering up his son, believing that God would resurrect him. That's why he told the young men that he told to stay back while he and his son went on, that both he and his son "WILL COME AGAIN UNTO YOU". He spoke his faith right there, and God made it happen.

Abraham was justified "shown to be righteous" (James 2:21) after his work of faith in Genesis 22, BUT Abraham was already justified "accounted as righteous" (Romans 4:3) because of his faith in Genesis 15:6 BEFORE his work of faith. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

Thayer's definition;
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1342

Strong's definition;
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

From what I see, the word translated to, "justified", means JUSTIFIED. In other words, he was justified after the works of faith, just like it says in plain English.

You error by giving the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous" yet fail to see that the word "justified" can also mean "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered," as I already showed you in post #67.

*You need to remember that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). James chapter 2 is a major stumbling block for works-salvationists.

That is if you don't try to change the meaning to fit your doctrine.

I did not change the meaning to fit my doctrine, I used the proper meaning to fit the context.

You really are complicating, as well as twisting, a very simple sentence and matter.
It's not hard to understand if you just accept it as it is written.

It's not complicated at all and I did not twist anything. I accept it as it is written IN CONTEXT. It's not hard to understand if you proper harmonize scripture with scripture, but you prefer to misinterpret James 2 to teach salvation by works, in contradiction to Romans 4:2-3.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If a man says-claims he has faith but he has no works (to back up his claim, given time to produce works) then he demonstrates that he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith. Simple!

Faith without works if dead.
That is the truth of the gospel.

Works are the evidence (fruit) of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Teaching that man is saved by works is a "different" gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

Even as Paul said about WOF. Believe in your heart and say out your mouth. Believe and act, faith and a work.
That is how faith works.
It's that simple.

You are obviously confused, as you continue to demonstrate by teaching salvation by works.

 

[Justice777]

Depends how deep you want to go with god their is many levels in heaven where are you seated is having faith enough ? Doing good deeds ? We must Bow to Jesus acronym Beleive Obey Worship Obey is walking in righteousness , parapable of the sower planting fields with good deeds in rich soil to bear the fruits gods rewards which are the gifts of healing prophecy you tongues . Have faith have good works and many of them beleive with your heart pray with thankfulness be humble And put yourself below people and stand out not afraid of persecution and I would say you will be annointed with the healing touch lay of hands brother dig deeper god will accept you where you at or where u want to go .

 

[know1]

Depends how deep you want to go with god their is many levels in heaven where are you seated is having faith enough ? Doing good deeds ? We must Bow to Jesus acronym Beleive Obey Worship Obey is walking in righteousness , parapable of the sower planting fields with good deeds in rich soil to bear the fruits gods rewards which are the gifts of healing prophecy you tongues . Have faith have good works and many of them beleive with your heart pray with thankfulness be humble And put yourself below people and stand out not afraid of persecution and I would say you will be annointed with the healing touch lay of hands brother dig deeper god will accept you where you at or where u want to go .

I'm sorry but I don't know what you are trying to say.