Not By Works
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Right there is where you miss the mark....the word must.......eternal salvation is given by grace through faith before 1 work is ever done....and the view "must" denies numerous applications of the bible.....such as...
A. First and foremost....ALL who have been genuinely born again have already done the WORKS of the FATHER in BELIEVING
B. believers will have works of EVERY FLAVOR, some good, some bad, some like 1st Corinthians 3...gold, silver and precious stones, some wood, hay and stubble....The latter being burnt to a crisp with nothing left, yet saved so as by fire
C. Some may have 1 work some may have a plethora of works
D. Some, like the thief on the cross was saved without one work done
E. Some may produce and then in their latter years quit producing
F. Some may produce little if anything due to immaturity and or stunted growth
G. Some may take their whole life to produce 1 piece of fruit/work
Paul was clear...a man is justified before God by faith without works/deeds of the law.......!!!!
A. First and foremost....ALL who have been genuinely born again have already done the WORKS of the FATHER in BELIEVING
B. believers will have works of EVERY FLAVOR, some good, some bad, some like 1st Corinthians 3...gold, silver and precious stones, some wood, hay and stubble....The latter being burnt to a crisp with nothing left, yet saved so as by fire
C. Some may have 1 work some may have a plethora of works
D. Some, like the thief on the cross was saved without one work done
E. Some may produce and then in their latter years quit producing
F. Some may produce little if anything due to immaturity and or stunted growth
G. Some may take their whole life to produce 1 piece of fruit/work
Paul was clear...a man is justified before God by faith without works/deeds of the law.......!!!!
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Hi Hevosmies, it is much more than a word game, if we are using words to communicate God's plan of salvation for the human race. God set His plan of salvation in motion after the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve "did nothing" to provide a covering for their sin; Gen3:21
Our God did everything to ensure that their was a covering for both Adam and Eve and there were no works involved on their part, none. Our works are evidence of salvation not the cause of, nor are works used to maintain our eternal salvation. "For God so loved the world that 'He gave His One and Only Son', that whoever 'believes in Him' shall not perish but have eternal life." John3:16
God has provided a covering for the sin of Adam and Even back then and today He has provided forgiveness of our sin by "grace through faith in His Son Jesus Christ, "Not By Works", it is a gift of God, lest anyone should boast." Eph2:8
Eternal Salvation was possible for Adam and Eve without works, in the Garden of Eden; "the Lord God provided a sacrifice, Genesis3:21; and the Lord God provides Eternal Salvation today through the blood atonement of His Son Jesus Christ.
Romans3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
Today God's covenant with mankind continues and it is our God who provides the sacrifice His, "One and Only Son, Jesus Christ." John3:16, for the remission of sin.
1) God made the garments of skin - Adam and Eve did no work that is pretty plainly revealed
2) God "clothed them"
Genesis3:21,22: The Expulsion from Paradise
21) And 'the LORD God' made garments of skin for Adam and his wife 'and clothed them."
22) Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”
If you are trying to work for your salvation the Apostle Paul say's "you have fallen from grace."
Your "Practical Sanctification" ((our daily walk)), is for a different topic.
Galatians5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Our God did everything to ensure that their was a covering for both Adam and Eve and there were no works involved on their part, none. Our works are evidence of salvation not the cause of, nor are works used to maintain our eternal salvation. "For God so loved the world that 'He gave His One and Only Son', that whoever 'believes in Him' shall not perish but have eternal life." John3:16
God has provided a covering for the sin of Adam and Even back then and today He has provided forgiveness of our sin by "grace through faith in His Son Jesus Christ, "Not By Works", it is a gift of God, lest anyone should boast." Eph2:8
Eternal Salvation was possible for Adam and Eve without works, in the Garden of Eden; "the Lord God provided a sacrifice, Genesis3:21; and the Lord God provides Eternal Salvation today through the blood atonement of His Son Jesus Christ.
Romans3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
Today God's covenant with mankind continues and it is our God who provides the sacrifice His, "One and Only Son, Jesus Christ." John3:16, for the remission of sin.
1) God made the garments of skin - Adam and Eve did no work that is pretty plainly revealed
2) God "clothed them"
Genesis3:21,22: The Expulsion from Paradise
21) And 'the LORD God' made garments of skin for Adam and his wife 'and clothed them."
22) Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”
If you are trying to work for your salvation the Apostle Paul say's "you have fallen from grace."
Your "Practical Sanctification" ((our daily walk)), is for a different topic.
Galatians5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
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Yep.....usually while ignoring context, verb tense and other scripture in context that totally contradicts a working for salvation that can be lost and that must be kept by what we do.....
You know.....Satan quoted scripture at the temptation of Christ.......and his false messengers quote millions of scriptures every Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday in so called churches world wide every week.......!
That does not make them right....nor does it make you right Fran!
You know.....Satan quoted scripture at the temptation of Christ.......and his false messengers quote millions of scriptures every Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday in so called churches world wide every week.......!
That does not make them right....nor does it make you right Fran!
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It's not a silly question. For those who say that we are saved by obedience or that our obedience maintains our salvation, there must be an answer to, "how much obedience does it take?" Otherwise, you spend your life hoping and wondering if you were "obedient enough" to be saved and that takes us into salvation by works. How much faith does it take to be saved? It's not about how much, but what is the OBJECT of our faith. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. It's not trust in Jesus 50% and 50% in works or trust in Jesus 90% and 10% in works etc..
You said, "To REMAIN saved, we do have to obey God." Obedience is works. So how much obedience does it take?
Amen!
It's not about we must do good works in order to become or remain saved but that we will do good works (some more than others) if we truly are saved.
Are you saying that it's faith + the behavior that saves by stressing, "not the acts ALONE?"
James 2:17 We need both faith and works AFTER SALVATION.
You said, "To REMAIN saved, we do have to obey God." Obedience is works. So how much obedience does it take?
Amen!
It's not about we must do good works in order to become or remain saved but that we will do good works (some more than others) if we truly are saved.
Are you saying that it's faith + the behavior that saves by stressing, "not the acts ALONE?"
James 2:17 We need both faith and works AFTER SALVATION.
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
I'm not suggesting that Jesus left us with His commands merely as a suggestion. These are commands that He expects us to strive to obey, but none of us perfectly obey Him, yet John did say that those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin and also love their brother. Some believers get off to a slow start, yet Paul still refers to them as "babes in Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)
In John 3:18, Jesus said - “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." In Acts 10:43, Peter said - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." In Acts 16:31, Paul said - “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” *Notice believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications."
Where people into trouble is when they re-define faith to "include" works, like the Roman Catholic I mentioned in post #80,253. It sounds to me like you are leaning in the same direction as he is in regards to faith, even though you said we are saved by faith alone. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Amen!
I've had discussions with people before on Christian Chat and other Christian forums who claimed to be perfect.I think I know, but we'll see how it turns out.
[/QUOTE]That's just your assumption Gods grace concerning Genesis 3:22. I see that as them knowing what the tree of life did for them,
We will never come to the same conclusions. The reasons being that I see God as the beginning, the power of Holy Spirit working, and finishing what He has started in our lives. It's a promise! We obey by believing and receiving His Word as the ultimate truth. For in the Spirit...faith is power. Supernatural power freeing men to participate with Holy Spirit.
Good deeds even godless men and women can do. But the works of God? Only through Holy Spirit.
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Why is it so hard to understand that James is making a comparison between a mere belief in God and genuine faith while making it very clear that the audience is MEN and not GOD......JAMES DOES NOT TEACH a works based SALVATION.....AND TO THIS VERY DAY THE SAME AUDIENCE he addressed "JEWS" BELIEVE IN GOD, but do not possess SAVING FAITH.....!!!
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Paul. Having begun in the spirit
[/quote]To REMAIN saved, we do have to obey God.[/quote]
Are you now being perfected in the flesh.
Before Paul spoke these words. He called the galtions, who were believeing the same thing, fools.
We love BECAUSE he loved us first. The bible says the children of God OBEY HIM (thats how we know they are children of God)
Abraham justified (verified or proved) his faith by following through with his faith which occured 35 years learlier, When God promised a child from him and his wife would be his err, and become a great nation, when as hebrews said, Knowing God could raise him from the dead, went to offer his son of promise and God stopped him, His faith was made more mature, or stronger because of this as james said.
God knows a persons heart. Man does not. You may beed proof you are saved by how well you obey or othe rpeople may need that proof. But God does not. He is not going to save people he KNOWS do not really trust him
[/quote]To REMAIN saved, we do have to obey God.[/quote]
Are you now being perfected in the flesh.
Before Paul spoke these words. He called the galtions, who were believeing the same thing, fools.
We love BECAUSE he loved us first. The bible says the children of God OBEY HIM (thats how we know they are children of God)
Abraham justified (verified or proved) his faith by following through with his faith which occured 35 years learlier, When God promised a child from him and his wife would be his err, and become a great nation, when as hebrews said, Knowing God could raise him from the dead, went to offer his son of promise and God stopped him, His faith was made more mature, or stronger because of this as james said.
God knows a persons heart. Man does not. You may beed proof you are saved by how well you obey or othe rpeople may need that proof. But God does not. He is not going to save people he KNOWS do not really trust him
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No. Like most people. We KNOW we are going to do Good works. Because that is what scripture teaches.
Those who end up at GWTJ end up there because they never had faith. Many of them had works (jesus will say depart for he never knew them)
You want to offer God your filthy rags (works), feel free. But please do not be offended by those who offer God their faith. Because they know an understand no matter how much work they do. They will still fall short.
Those who end up at GWTJ end up there because they never had faith. Many of them had works (jesus will say depart for he never knew them)
You want to offer God your filthy rags (works), feel free. But please do not be offended by those who offer God their faith. Because they know an understand no matter how much work they do. They will still fall short.
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Must assumes you can not do it, or will nto do it.
The bible says will.
The only reason to say must is you do not believe God, wh began a good will. WILL COMPLETE THAT WORK. It trusts in self and our ability, and not God and his power.
How can you claim to have faiht in God. When you do not have faith he will (not might) complete the work he PROMISED to do.
Faith meand assurance, not mere belief. If you have faith, your faith WILL work. And the more you work. The more your faith is grown.
Belief may or may not do some works. But has no assurance.
You have no assurance. So how can you claim to have faith?
The bible says will.
The only reason to say must is you do not believe God, wh began a good will. WILL COMPLETE THAT WORK. It trusts in self and our ability, and not God and his power.
How can you claim to have faiht in God. When you do not have faith he will (not might) complete the work he PROMISED to do.
Faith meand assurance, not mere belief. If you have faith, your faith WILL work. And the more you work. The more your faith is grown.
Belief may or may not do some works. But has no assurance.
You have no assurance. So how can you claim to have faith?
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So why do you not have these bolded words in your form of “belief? Why are you not persuaded, Why are you not trusting, Why are you not relying upon the focus of your what you claim your faith is in, (God and his promises) and instead are relying on your ability to do what you think must be accomplished?
Faith also has with it the form of assurance (unlike the word belief, which one can believe yet have no assurance) What is it that God has not done that you have no assurance in his promises and must rely on your ability to be obedient?
Faith also has with it the form of assurance (unlike the word belief, which one can believe yet have no assurance) What is it that God has not done that you have no assurance in his promises and must rely on your ability to be obedient?
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