Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
@Hevosmies
You know H,
I've asked a few questions today that I just did not get an answer for.
I'm still looking for that post I wrote...for you.
In the meantime...
Could you answer that question I had for you.
I had stated that if it weren't for the catholic church we wouldn't be here talking right now.
And I stated that it was them that put the N.T. together.
You disagreed and wrote that the early church did.
WHO WAS THE EARLY CHURCH?
Come on...
Give it a try.
You know H,
I've asked a few questions today that I just did not get an answer for.
I'm still looking for that post I wrote...for you.
In the meantime...
Could you answer that question I had for you.
I had stated that if it weren't for the catholic church we wouldn't be here talking right now.
And I stated that it was them that put the N.T. together.
You disagreed and wrote that the early church did.
WHO WAS THE EARLY CHURCH?
Come on...
Give it a try.
-
1
- Show all
I am Pointing out that the Arminians for the most part, have a twisted, idea about what OSAS is beliefs are about, and it is a Pervertion of what we REALLY BELIEVE.
It is NOT that now that I have BEEN SAVED, I can do what I want.
When we Receive JESUS AS LORD, that very MOMENT, we KNOW that LORD means a MASTER that WE WILL TOTALLY SURRENDER TO ALL THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES, because we LOVE HIM. We were Predestined, that we WILL BELIEVE, and GOD IS IN CONTROL, and all of our choices for the most part will be GODLY Choices. Sure the sinful flesh gets in the way, now and then, but when we walk in the Spirit, our dominate characteristic will be to do what Pleases HIM. That Victory over sin, is a Victory in that SIN will no longer dominate our Lives, while instead a lifestyle of doing what Pleases HIM. It is a Struggle at first, but as we MATURE it will get easier and easier, to WALK AS JESUS WALKED. You doubt that Jesus is in Control of YOUR Choices ? Let me show this to you in Scripture:
Romans 8:28-30 (HCSB)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:31 (HCSB)
31 What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Romans 8:37-39 (HCSB)
37 No, in all these things we are more than victorious through Him who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded that not even death or life, angels or rulers, things present or things to come, ⌊hostile⌋ powers,
39 height or depth, or any other created thing will have the power to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord!
Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO STRIVE TO OBEY OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM, not because of our own efforts, BECAUSE OF HIS EFFORTS.
Most PEOPLE that believe in the OSAS theology, believe that very thing.
HOW DIFFERENT IS THAT, THAN WHAT YOU USED TO BELIEVE OSAS STOOD FOR?
I tend to agree with the Early Church Fathers.
I feel they were the closest to Jesus and knew what He was talking about.
Some of them knew one of the Apostles...Like for instance Ignatius.
Could you imagine asking JOHN the Apostle questions!!
What a blast that would be.
He could do this.
As to doctrine I'm Protestant,,,mainline of today.
I don't care for reformed theology...I have many reasons why.
But any Christian that is following our Lord is a brother to me and I don't think doctrine should separate us,,,as many on this thread believe.
Sorry, I got caught up in a chat...
I wanted to post the following for you.
See if you agree with Perseverance of the Saints.
I mean, I know it's right....but what do you think?
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
from post no. 86,226
OSAS:
Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).
This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.
ETERNAL SECURITY:
Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.
The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.
This is why the N.T. is full of conditinal words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:
Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.
Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.
For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.
I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.
I believe in Eternal Security.
I feel they were the closest to Jesus and knew what He was talking about.
Some of them knew one of the Apostles...Like for instance Ignatius.
Could you imagine asking JOHN the Apostle questions!!
What a blast that would be.
He could do this.
As to doctrine I'm Protestant,,,mainline of today.
I don't care for reformed theology...I have many reasons why.
But any Christian that is following our Lord is a brother to me and I don't think doctrine should separate us,,,as many on this thread believe.
Sorry, I got caught up in a chat...
I wanted to post the following for you.
See if you agree with Perseverance of the Saints.
I mean, I know it's right....but what do you think?
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
from post no. 86,226
OSAS:
Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).
This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.
ETERNAL SECURITY:
Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.
The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.
This is why the N.T. is full of conditinal words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:
Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.
Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.
For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.
I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.
I believe in Eternal Security.
-
1
- Show all
...Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4
...What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and AS SOME CLAIM THAT WE SAY—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved. Romans 3:3-8
Did the apostles say “Let us do evil that good may result”? No.
BUT some on this thread are proud to call themselves "SINNERS" and say that obedience to God has no bearing unto salvation while mocking and insulting those who say otherwise, calling them "SINLESS PERFECTIONISTS", "WORKS SALVATIONISTS", "CAINOLOGISTS" and "PEDDLERS OF A FALSE GOSPEL" thus calling EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL. (Isaiah 5:20-24)
...But God is faithful to His promises to His own people where Judas was one of them and was even chosen to be one of the twelve apostles who are servants of God.
...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and THE PROMISES. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:4-5 (See also Romans 11:11-36)
...So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? WHAT DO YOU HAVE THAT YOU DID NOT RECECEIVE? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:1-7
...What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and AS SOME CLAIM THAT WE SAY—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved. Romans 3:3-8
Did the apostles say “Let us do evil that good may result”? No.
BUT some on this thread are proud to call themselves "SINNERS" and say that obedience to God has no bearing unto salvation while mocking and insulting those who say otherwise, calling them "SINLESS PERFECTIONISTS", "WORKS SALVATIONISTS", "CAINOLOGISTS" and "PEDDLERS OF A FALSE GOSPEL" thus calling EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL. (Isaiah 5:20-24)
...But God is faithful to His promises to His own people where Judas was one of them and was even chosen to be one of the twelve apostles who are servants of God.
...the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and THE PROMISES. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:4-5 (See also Romans 11:11-36)
...So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? WHAT DO YOU HAVE THAT YOU DID NOT RECECEIVE? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 1 Corinthians 4:1-7
-
1
- Show all
See M,
This is why I didn't want to answer your post and really I shouldn't have.
I spent time writing to you this morning.
Why don't you answer my post to you instead of being insulting in a coy way.
Posters here just do not like answering questions or posts.
Maybe because they don't have an answer.
@Magenta
This is why I didn't want to answer your post and really I shouldn't have.
I spent time writing to you this morning.
Why don't you answer my post to you instead of being insulting in a coy way.
Posters here just do not like answering questions or posts.
Maybe because they don't have an answer.
@Magenta
I see.
The early church was not the roman catholic or latin rite or whatever its called church.
They were groups of churches locally governed all over the place. The NT books were just considered authoritative by all because of their authors, adn they were circulated around.
Im not foolish enough to claim the catholics have never done anything good to preserve bible manuscripts or save christian europe from invasions from the east, or anything like that.
I just think they are dead wrong on doctrine, and while you said you dont think we should divide over doctrine. I believe we should! some things just cant be compromised on. Thats why we got ecumenical-movement. To sweep doctrine under the rug and just work together "cause Jesus" while having completely different plants of salvation and all other doctrines too. Sounds like a compromise, and I believe the ecumenical movement is not of God. Quite the opposite.
I will never give in to this ecumenical dead churches!
I dont know how someone could be comfortable bowing down to a statue of Mary, and 'venerating' it. Speaking of the early church, do you believe the Apostle Paul would of ever done something liike that? I bet as a tough jew he wouldnt of been a miles way from something like that.
The early church was not the roman catholic or latin rite or whatever its called church.
They were groups of churches locally governed all over the place. The NT books were just considered authoritative by all because of their authors, adn they were circulated around.
Im not foolish enough to claim the catholics have never done anything good to preserve bible manuscripts or save christian europe from invasions from the east, or anything like that.
I just think they are dead wrong on doctrine, and while you said you dont think we should divide over doctrine. I believe we should! some things just cant be compromised on. Thats why we got ecumenical-movement. To sweep doctrine under the rug and just work together "cause Jesus" while having completely different plants of salvation and all other doctrines too. Sounds like a compromise, and I believe the ecumenical movement is not of God. Quite the opposite.
I will never give in to this ecumenical dead churches!
I dont know how someone could be comfortable bowing down to a statue of Mary, and 'venerating' it. Speaking of the early church, do you believe the Apostle Paul would of ever done something liike that? I bet as a tough jew he wouldnt of been a miles way from something like that.
I really agree with you and I'd like to discuss this with you...
It's past midnight here...
Tomorrow?
This is an interesting subject for me since I know both doctrine.
It's past midnight here...
Tomorrow?
This is an interesting subject for me since I know both doctrine.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
lies.
for one thing, just because someone didn't give you the 'magic words' you were looking for doesn't mean someone 'couldn't' -- as you said in the same post i'm quoting, perhaps they are 'too mature' to give you an answer? your own logic self-defeats. we all know that it is through His Spirit that He grants us these things.
but even more poignantly, i answered you 4 times, but you failed to comprehend it.
so ((a 5th time)) i explained it to you, seeing that you were not sharp enough ((by your own admission)) to see, and that you were too self-absorbed ((evidently)) to bother asking me to clarify those things you failed to understand.
right here:
post # 86,785
o but that's right, you decided that because you could not comprehend my replies, you are too high to deign to listen to me, so you put me on ignore.
*shrug*
would someone inform this fabulous dude to look at my post? thanks
for one thing, just because someone didn't give you the 'magic words' you were looking for doesn't mean someone 'couldn't' -- as you said in the same post i'm quoting, perhaps they are 'too mature' to give you an answer? your own logic self-defeats. we all know that it is through His Spirit that He grants us these things.
but even more poignantly, i answered you 4 times, but you failed to comprehend it.
so ((a 5th time)) i explained it to you, seeing that you were not sharp enough ((by your own admission)) to see, and that you were too self-absorbed ((evidently)) to bother asking me to clarify those things you failed to understand.
right here:
post # 86,785
o but that's right, you decided that because you could not comprehend my replies, you are too high to deign to listen to me, so you put me on ignore.
*shrug*
would someone inform this fabulous dude to look at my post? thanks
-
2
- Show all
I just want you to know in response...
Thanks for your time. I can see what you are saying. For now, though, I am redirecting, going to His feet because I need to get my mind off of my Salvation and on to my Saviour, too much I and me going on, lol. I don't want to bounce around in the word, tossing myself too and fro. I need to focus grasshopper, haha. I will pray that He continues to reveal His truth as I approach Him with a humble heart. My hearts condition will always hunger and thirst for more of Him. So in and on Him, my heart is fixed.
I will acknowledge that you have pointed out some excellent scriptures, ones that I have examined and an interesting and reasonable article. I just need more of the big picture (the entirety) studied to find the harmony in the all the scriptures. I believe in Him alone lies that reconciliation that divides. Does that make sense? I need to quit trying to have it (salvation) or Him all figured out, TODAY. It is NOT going to happen.
See you soon, if it is true that I need to sanctify myself through putting my whole mind and body unto submission to Him. I need to go spend more time with Him. If He does the sanctifying, I need to spend more time with Him. Dang responsibilities and sleep also need tending too, especially from your perspective. Hahaha just messing.
He, the Great I Am, the Alpha and Omega...is where my hope resides. To Him be the all the Glory, dominion, and authority. Amen.
Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
1 Thessalonians 5:24 NASB
Knowing that He said that He can and will, tells me that I need to remember to whom I belong and to who has the power.
Thanks for your time. I can see what you are saying. For now, though, I am redirecting, going to His feet because I need to get my mind off of my Salvation and on to my Saviour, too much I and me going on, lol. I don't want to bounce around in the word, tossing myself too and fro. I need to focus grasshopper, haha. I will pray that He continues to reveal His truth as I approach Him with a humble heart. My hearts condition will always hunger and thirst for more of Him. So in and on Him, my heart is fixed.
I will acknowledge that you have pointed out some excellent scriptures, ones that I have examined and an interesting and reasonable article. I just need more of the big picture (the entirety) studied to find the harmony in the all the scriptures. I believe in Him alone lies that reconciliation that divides. Does that make sense? I need to quit trying to have it (salvation) or Him all figured out, TODAY. It is NOT going to happen.
See you soon, if it is true that I need to sanctify myself through putting my whole mind and body unto submission to Him. I need to go spend more time with Him. If He does the sanctifying, I need to spend more time with Him. Dang responsibilities and sleep also need tending too, especially from your perspective. Hahaha just messing.
He, the Great I Am, the Alpha and Omega...is where my hope resides. To Him be the all the Glory, dominion, and authority. Amen.
Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
1 Thessalonians 5:24 NASB
Knowing that He said that He can and will, tells me that I need to remember to whom I belong and to who has the power.
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all
... but mine's not in Greek; it's in math
I like how mathematicians think.
Very orderly.
So I guess you agree with me on EVERYTHING!!
LOL
I just remembered a few days ago how to get the square area of a triangle.
I admire you dear sir.
-
1
- Show all
Now you're lying....like I said..NO honesty and no integrity...NONE of us including myself have ever said or implied that drivel.....thanks for proving to all who you really are....and for the record...I feel sorry for the people you have bamboozled in your church......
and to show how dense you are....did David commit murder and lose his salvation or was he stoned to death under the law?
and to show how dense you are....did David commit murder and lose his salvation or was he stoned to death under the law?
-
1
- Show all
E
1. The yoke your preachen is a huge burden, in fact impossible
2. Jesus said his yoke is light, and its easy, again, not what your preaching, if growing to maturity was easy, we would all be there, but we are not. So it must not be that easy
3. He said you will find rest for your souls, i have found rest, if your preaching you may lose salvation, you will never find resr.
4. No, it is not submission, it is taking, he did not say do, he said Take. You cant even get that right,
5, so when are you going to trust him and stop trusting yourself?
2. Jesus said his yoke is light, and its easy, again, not what your preaching, if growing to maturity was easy, we would all be there, but we are not. So it must not be that easy
3. He said you will find rest for your souls, i have found rest, if your preaching you may lose salvation, you will never find resr.
4. No, it is not submission, it is taking, he did not say do, he said Take. You cant even get that right,
5, so when are you going to trust him and stop trusting yourself?
-
1
- Show all
