Not By Works

[OneOfHis]

Hey, OOH.
Where in these verses does it even remotely refer to YOUR works (or mine)?

You tell me you're the one bringing them up.


I assume you will play the dancing chairs with verses game again?


Wait.... before you elaborate, please only reply if you are willing to admit you do believe we ought to look to works of righteousness which we do for assurance of eternal life.

Lol, no way.
I did not even allude to it.

The changed life is how you know you have eternal life inside of you.

I said this before you. It was one of my first posts with this account also stated many many times by me personally on this account.


This is not ONLY actions but ALSO our new nature. Our quickened spirit and the Holy Spirit as our teacher.


The actions ONLY show evidence of the NEWNESS of life TO OTHERS. We, appart from works OUGHT to have confidence in the promises of Christ if HE is our foundation.

Let me try one last time.



Peter, before man only had to say a few words opposed to do what was right in order to appear as a non-believer before man.

God still knew peter was His.

Man thought peter was not a follower of Jesus.


Abraham, an example of faith being paired with not ANY work... but to actually offer your SON to GOD would seem VERY justified before man to call himself a believer. His actions show how much he truly believed. Though God knew all along.



This is not about being saved.....


God saves us appart from works.


Please understand me.


I am tired of explaining the exact same thing over and over... if I am talking in a confusing way I am sorry john.... I don't mean to

I am trying to be clear and direct.

I have addressed this many times

It is not the works I do that give me assurance, it is the works of God that are IN ME ALREADY.

You don't tell a sappling "you may one day feel like maybe youre saved if you continue constantly doing these sorts of actions" (which would be what you SEEM to be implying)

You have confidence that God will not forsake you

then out of love for Him who loved you first ask Him to lead you and keep His commandments (which does not mean uphold perfectly as some like to suggest)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wish I would get a response though, I think my points were valid, frustrating!!!

Oh well maybe I can salvage and enjoy the rest of my day!!

Don’t let him get to ya. That’s his goal

 

[EleventhHour]

You tell me you're the one bringing them up.


I assume you will play the dancing chairs with verses game again?


Wait.... before you elaborate, please only reply if you are willing to admit you do believe we ought to look to works of righteousness which we do for assurance of eternal life.









I said this before you. It was one of my first posts with this account also stated many many times by me personally on this account.


This is not ONLY actions but ALSO our new nature. Our quickened spirit and the Holy Spirit as our teacher.


The actions ONLY show evidence of the NEWNESS of life TO OTHERS. We, appart from works OUGHT to have confidence in the promises of Christ if HE is our foundation.




I have addressed this many times

It is not the works I do that give me assurance, it is the works of God that are IN ME ALREADY.

You don't tell a sappling "you may one day feel like maybe youre saved if you continue constantly doing these sorts of actions" (which would be what you SEEM to be implying)

You have confidence that God will not forsake you

then out of love for Him who loved you first ask Him to lead you and keep His commandments (which does not mean uphold perfectly as some like to suggest)

Agree


John is affirming the source of their salvation and their love/works and juxtaposing it to the works of the flesh....so his audience obtains a understanding of the source of their love and abides in that source rather than the flesh.

 

[Tellion]

I did, didn't I ..........now can someone tell me how I can get my day off work back!!!!

Sigh!

I wish I would get a response though, I think my points were valid, frustrating!!!

Oh well maybe I can salvage and enjoy the rest of my day!!

Wish I could help. But I'm not that good at time management... :-\

 

[star]

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

No where does the Word of God tell us we must "hold onto" in order to keep our salvation. Yet, Judges continues to say we have to. Oh I am so thankful I have been "sealed" unto salvation. Whooo what a lot of work people must put forth in order to "hold on".

 

[star]

There are a few of those clowns on this site....and that view TOTALLY REJECTS and denies JESUS FINISHING AND COMPLETEING THE WORK OF FAITH IN US!!

Yes and that is Truth. I feel rather sorry for those who believe Jesus does not have the Power and the Glory to keep what He has sealed.

 

[Tellion]

The explanation I have gotten from asking that very same question was

Many are called means many hear the Gospel
Few are chosen means of the many who hear the few are the elect who end up believing and are saved.

This is the explanation I have heard, not here to defend Calvinism, just giving the explanation I have heard.

I do not think he was asking how the Calvinist would translate the passage. He was applying particular stress to the gap between "few" and "many", and wants me, or a reasonable Calvinist at any rate, to address the Calvinist's response to this gap.

 

[EleventhHour]

Wish I could help. But I'm not that good at time management... :-\

You mean you cannot turn back the clock....darn!!!

 

[Tellion]

I do not think he was asking how the Calvinist would translate the passage. He was applying particular stress to the gap between "few" and "many", and wants me, or a reasonable Calvinist at any rate, to address the Calvinist's response to this gap.

I guess I'm assuming the reasonable part.... But hey, I take liberties where I'm afforded them!

 

[EleventhHour]

Lol!!! Obviously you don’t know what a straw man is!

You’re really angry which explains why you post the way you do with insulting language and false accusations. You want me to name names? Whomever denies evidence of conversion teaches a false truncated gospel. So if the shoe fits wear it. Am I supposed to fear anyone that may be wearing it and need to adjust my statements for them? Nope. Not happening.

There is such a thing as evidence of conversion.

Your trouble is (along with many others) anytime you hear “works” or “evidence of conversion” you foolishly conflate these with “works salvation” or a “works Gospel.”

I agreed with his post because he got it correct for once. Agreeing with his post is not an endorsement of his works salvation teachings.

There is such a thing as evidence of conversion, it is sanctification. We grow in degrees of sanctification but we don’t grow in degrees of justification. So, in other words works nor evidence of conversion save, but they do denote true conversion, or not.

Now, show me where I said God needs evidence.

We are positionally sanctified in Christ
when we are justified....btw

 

[Lightskin]

Not one of these people has the integrity or manhood to step away from their party and say Hey, you were right, sorry for my behavior.

It starts with you. You’re not the most toxic human being on this chat site but by no means are you angelic either. If you desire true godliness within the confines of your conversations then lead by prayerful example. I’ll follow suit.

 

[Tellion]

You mean you cannot turn back the clock....darn!!!

Oh the problems I could solve...

 

[EleventhHour]

Oh the problems I could solve...

Ain't that the truth!!

 

[Judges1318]

please only reply if you are willing to admit you do believe we ought to look to works of righteousness which we do for assurance of eternal life.

Yes, I admit that works of righteousness in a person is how a person knows they are righteous:

"7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil" - 1 John 3:7

"if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit (for love comes from the Spirit within us)." - 1 John 3:12-13


I'm talking about being righteous in Christ, of course, not in ourselves:

"he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."- John 15:5

Make sure you are recognizing the difference between the security of your salvation and the assurance that you have that salvation.
The security of salvation is found in the perfect and incorruptible and everlasting ministry of Christ (which is the reason the Bible gives that you should continue in it).
The assurance you have that salvation comes from seeing the work of the Spirit in you in an ever increasing righteous life.

 

[dcontroversal]

What are you saying is false? To you, @dcontroversal, is Scripture/Bible a Unified Whole?

Your blended covenant gospel ofnworks and law keeping drivel.....of course the bible is unified and YET THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT COVENANTS....you are conflating BOTH into a false gospel....!!

 

[Judges1318]

Saved is saved. God imputes righteousness without works.

Yes, but the assurance that we have that imputed righteousness comes from seeing the Spirit at work in our daily lives.
You may not realize this, but the imputation of righteousness that you have received is the deposit of the Holy Spirit inside of you.
That's why righteous works reveal the imputation of righteousness a person has.

It is not our works we look to but His works in us.

Of course it's his work inspired in us.
You and I can do nothing apart from Him. Jesus said so.

 

[Judges1318]

Yes and that is Truth. I feel rather sorry for those who believe Jesus does not have the Power and the Glory to keep what He has sealed.

Of course he has that power. His ministry is perfect. That's why you should not cast it aside in unbelief:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope...for He who promised is faithful" - Hebrews 10:23

"since we have a great high priest...let us hold fast our confession." - Hebrews 4:14

 

[dcontroversal]

I would really like to know if you agree with Judges that we look to our own good works to affirm we are saved?

He lip flaps all the time and portrays himself as this super duper Christian that sets the standard for being biblical....oblivious to the fact his mouth disqualifies him from any authority whatsoever at all.....not to mention he worships Calvin and puts a man's view of scripture above scripture....quite the faux hypocrite.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Where did he say this?





Which is utter nonsense. The epistle of 1 John refutes this, as it shows evidence of and lack of evidence of true conversion. 2 Corinthians 13:5 also refutes him. 2 Peter 1:10 does the same as well as 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 with the context of the epistles, along with Philippians 2:12-13. So, for him to dismiss this as fruitless is antiBiblical presumption. It is false teaching.

Worshipping Calvin and peddling his faux Christian views takes the cake not only of false teaching, but also of willful ignorance!

 

[preacher4truth]

The dividing line and problem in this thread is a basic misunderstanding of theology on both sides. Some are accusing others of teaching “having to hold onto Christ” which is countered with the fact Christ holds onto us, John 10:28 for example.

Thus that we hold onto Christ (faith) is prematurely tossed out as “works salvation.” Remember that Paul stated he had kept the faith in 2 Timothy 4:6-8. This of course was by God’s grace in the work of sanctification.

Note that what we are talking about here isn’t salvation at all, it is sanctification. The holding onto Christ scenario has nothing to do with being justified (salvation) but has to do with sanctification, perseverance or preservation of the saints.

Evidence of true conversion is seen in sanctification, as one is being conformed to the image of Christ, note Romans 8:26-30. This transformation happens to all in Christ, not just some; 2 Corinthians 3:18ff.

Evidence of conversion is a necessity, if there is no evidence, there was no conversion.

Let me put it to you like this: In salvation (justification) it is all of God, 100% him. It is therefore monergistic, it was accomplished by a single person namely the work of God. Man gets no glory here for anything.

God chose to save whom he willed according to his purpose; Ephesians 1 and did this all himself. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 showing it is all because of him, not us.

After this comes the post conversion life, something we call sanctification. This is synergistic, meaning a cooperation of two, that is, cooperation of the converted and God which is caused by God’s working within them. Therefore God also gets all the glory here as well. Note Ezekiel 36:27, Philippians 2:12-13.

So, saying we are holding out faith is true yet most fail to recognize that is all to his glory as he causes it to take place. On the other hand those dismissing this as works salvation are making a category error as this isn’t about saving ones self, it is about post conversion sanctification.

The other side errs in thinking it is solely something they are doing, like they are keeping on believing &c. The only reason they do this is because God causes them to will and do it because they are truly converted. It adds nor contributes nothing to their justification or final redemption, it only evidences that God is doing this in them, causing their cooperation.