Obedience REQUIRED

[PastMyPrime]

I don't live in sin, no.
I have sinned in the past. And there's a possibility that I could sin in the future,



No, I pointed out the false doctrine of the reformers who claim they live in sin every day and sin daily in thought word and deed claiming it's not possible to stop living in sin as they claim God put sin in them when they were formed in the womb so they are born sinners

Hey man, if you feel the need to sin all the time have at it. Doesn't effect me on judgement day at all.

Have you ever though about believing this passage and accepting it as actually being true???

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

I have never said I live in sin nor have I read any other post such a thing.
A person that continues to live in sin has never been save.
We are told in Hebrews that God will chastise His children and if you are not chastised you are not one of His children.
You are judging people as lost because they admit they do sin from time to time saying they are living is sin, not really striving to live in obedience.
And be sure if you live very long you will sin several times. There is no might about it.

 

[PastMyPrime]

What some do not understand is that some believers have a much more difficult time to put sin out of their lives than others.
A person that has never been associated with believers before, knows little or nothing about what living in obedience means, is still living in an ungodly home or environment, is not being taught what is sin and what is not, he or she may fail every day.
And then you have these people who say you must be obedient or you will lose your salvation, and they just give up.
I met one lady years ago who was about to kill herself because she could not seem to please her pastor's demand that she must live without sin or lose her salvation.
I got her to come to our church and+ attend a new believer's class, and she soon became a very happy and fruitful believer.
People should be very careful what you post and teach. You often do much more harm than good to young, immature
believers.

 

[NightTwister]

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philipinans 2:13

 

[Freed18]

Freed18, you just confirmed you do not believe Jesus Christ is the complete Savior that Scripture plainly and
unequivocally declares Him to be. When (if) you are able to, the rest of the pieces will also fall into place. Should that
occur, post me and we can continue then.

If Jesus wasn't the complete Savior, I would still be walking in sin.
But I walk in the light, which is God; and there is no sin in here.

How come the complete Savior has left you in sin ?
Could it possible be, that you have yet to avail yourself of His gift of repentance from sin ?
He won't force it on you, you know ?

 

[OMC]

What some do not understand is that some believers have a much more difficult time to put sin out of their lives than others.
A person that has never been associated with believers before, knows little or nothing about what living in obedience means, is still living in an ungodly home or environment, is not being taught what is sin and what is not, he or she may fail every day.
And then you have these people who say you must be obedient or you will lose your salvation, and they just give up.
I met one lady years ago who was about to kill herself because she could not seem to please her pastor's demand that she must live without sin or lose her salvation.
I got her to come to our church and+ attend a new believer's class, and she soon became a very happy and fruitful believer.
People should be very careful what you post and teach. You often do much more harm than good to young, immature
believers.

From my experience, I can say that what he claims is true for me. I knew nothing about God, nor did I care. But when He found me, it felt like I fought Him every step of the way until I stopped resisting and began listening. My sins were many and daily, until they weren’t. I still sin, much to my shame. I did today, and I’m still repenting for it. That doesn’t mean I’m lost; I’m just a work in progress.

 

[Freed18]

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

I hope you realize that the works mentioned were the works of the Law.
That is the only works Paul ever wrote against...circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Obedience to God is of paramount importance to our eventual day of judgement.

 

[Freed18]

From my experience, I can say that what he claims is true for me. I knew nothing about God, nor did I care. But when He found me, it felt like I fought Him every step of the way until I stopped resisting and began listening. My sins were many and daily, until they weren’t. I still sin, much to my shame. I did today, and I’m still repenting for it. That doesn’t mean I’m lost; I’m just a work in progress.

I pray that you will come to your real repentance from sin, before it is too late.

 

[OMC]

I pray that you will come to your real repentance from sin, before it is too late.

Excuse me? And what sin are you referring to? And how could you possibly know what sin or sins I am guilty of?

 

[OMC]

I hope you realize that the works mentioned were the works of the Law.
That is the only works Paul ever wrote against...circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Obedience to God is of paramount importance to our eventual day of judgement.

Paul is certainly arguing against reliance on works for justification, and in Romans 4 his immediate examples include circumcision (Rom. 4:9-12) and matters connected to the Law.
However, Paul does not limit the principle only to ceremonial works.
His point is broader: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Rom. 4:4).
If any work, whether ceremonial or moral, could earn justification, salvation would be a debt owed rather than a gift of grace.
That is why Paul says God "justifies the ungodly" who believe (Rom. 4:5).
At the same time, Scripture also teaches that obedience matters and that all people will be judged according to their deeds (Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6; Rev. 20:12-13).
The biblical distinction is that works do not justify us before God, but genuine faith produces obedience (Eph. 2:8-10; James 2:17-18). Therefore, obedience is not the cause of our justification, yet it is evidence of a living faith and will be part of the testimony considered on the day of judgment.

 

[Freed18]

Excuse me? And what sin are you referring to? And how could you possibly know what sin or sins I am guilty of?

You just said you sinned today, and are repenting of it. (post #265)
That sin.

 

[OMC]

You just said you sinned today, and are repenting of it. (post #265)
That sin.

From my experience, I can say that what he claims is true for me. I knew nothing about God, nor did I care. But when He found me, it felt like I fought Him every step of the way until I stopped resisting and began listening. My sins were many and daily, until they weren’t. I still sin, much to my shame. I did today, and I’m still repenting for it. That doesn’t mean I’m lost; I’m just a work in progress.

 

[Freed18]

Paul is certainly arguing against reliance on works for justification, and in Romans 4 his immediate examples include circumcision (Rom. 4:9-12) and matters connected to the Law.
However, Paul does not limit the principle only to ceremonial works.
His point is broader: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Rom. 4:4).
If any work, whether ceremonial or moral, could earn justification, salvation would be a debt owed rather than a gift of grace.
That is why Paul says God "justifies the ungodly" who believe (Rom. 4:5).
At the same time, Scripture also teaches that obedience matters and that all people will be judged according to their deeds (Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6; Rev. 20:12-13).
The biblical distinction is that works do not justify us before God, but genuine faith produces obedience (Eph. 2:8-10; James 2:17-18). Therefore, obedience is not the cause of our justification, yet it is evidence of a living faith and will be part of the testimony considered on the day of judgment.

The doctrine you present ultimately makes resisting temptation a bad thing.
I resist temptation so I will find my name in the book of life on the last day.
Is that an evil/wicked thing ?
Is repentance from sin an evil or wicked thing to do for salvation ?
Is baptim in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, for salvation, an evil or wicked thing ?
Our salvation, is in our hands.
But the works of the Mosaic Law are not good enough, for salvation.

 

[Freed18]

From my experience, I can say that what he claims is true for me. I knew nothing about God, nor did I care. But when He found me, it felt like I fought Him every step of the way until I stopped resisting and began listening. My sins were many and daily, until they weren’t. I still sin, much to my shame. I did today, and I’m still repenting for it. That doesn’t mean I’m lost; I’m just a work in progress.

I pray that your repenting will eventually be unnecessary.
And that your love for God and neighbor will make sin a thing of the past.

 

[OMC]

The doctrine you present ultimately makes resisting temptation a bad thing.
I resist temptation so I will find my name in the book of life on the last day.
Is that an evil/wicked thing ?
Is repentance from sin an evil or wicked thing to do for salvation ?
Is baptim in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, for salvation, an evil or wicked thing ?
Our salvation, is in our hands.
But the works of the Mosaic Law are not good enough, for salvation.

No, resisting temptation is not evil.
No, repentance is not evil.
No, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not evil.
Scripture commands all of those things.
The question is not whether obedience is good, but whether obedience is the basis upon which God justifies a sinner.

Romans 4:5 says God justifies "the ungodly" who believe, not the godly who have already overcome enough temptation.
If I say I resist sin because God commands it, that is obedience.
If I say I resist sin so that I can earn my place in the Book of Life, I have made eternal life a wage for my performance, which is exactly the principle Paul argues against in Romans 4:4.
The apostles consistently preached repentance, faith, baptism, holiness, and perseverance, yet they also taught that eternal life is the gift of God (Rom. 6:23), that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves (Eph. 2:8-9), and that no flesh will be justified by works (Rom. 3:20).
Therefore, I do not oppose obedience at all.
I oppose making obedience the thing that earns justification.
Scripture presents obedience as the response of faith, not the purchase price of salvation.
If our salvation is ultimately in our own hands, then Christ did not save sinners; He merely made salvation possible and left the final outcome to human performance.
Yet Jesus said, "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10:28), and Paul said that the one who began a good work in believers will complete it (Phil. 1:6).
The biblical tension is that believers must endure, repent, and obey, but their confidence rests in God's grace and Christ's work, not in their own ability to secure their final salvation.

 

[OMC]

I pray that your repenting will eventually be unnecessary.
And that your love for God and neighbor will make sin a thing of the past.

I appreciate the spirit of that prayer.
Scripture does point toward the day when sin will finally be gone from God's people.

Yet until that day, repentance remains necessary because "if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" (1 John 1:8), and believers are instructed to confess their sins (1 John 1:9).

I certainly hope to grow in love for God and neighbor, because "love is the fulfilling of the law" (Rom. 13:10), and everyone who abides in Christ should walk as He walked (1 John 2:6).
At the same time, my confidence is not that I will someday reach a level of obedience where repentance becomes unnecessary in this present age, but that Christ is faithful to complete the work He began in His people (Phil. 1:6).

The goal is not merely less repentance, but greater conformity to Christ.
Until He comes, I expect to keep fighting sin, keep repenting when I fail, and keep trusting in the mercy of God revealed in Jesus Christ.

 

[Freed18]

No, resisting temptation is not evil.
No, repentance is not evil.
No, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not evil.
Scripture commands all of those things.
The question is not whether obedience is good, but whether obedience is the basis upon which God justifies a sinner.

OK, so you are not one of the "I can't do anything for my own salvation" ists.
While we can do plenty for our own good.

Romans 4:5 says God justifies "the ungodly" who believe, not the godly who have already overcome enough temptation.

He won't justify the disobedient either.
Justificatiion is the product of the justifying blood of Christ being applied to the repentant person at his "immersion into Christ's death.
As repentnace makes one an ex-sinner, and baptism cleans us of past sins, the justification occurs at the same time of the cleaning.
All that is left for us to do, is endure faithfully obedient until the end.

If I say I resist sin because God commands it, that is obedience.
If I say I resist sin so that I can earn my place in the Book of Life, I have made eternal life a wage for my performance, which is exactly the principle Paul argues against in Romans 4:4.

The two are inexorably entwined.
I obey God becuse I love Him and He commands it: and if I don't, my name will be erased from the book of life.

The apostles consistently preached repentance, faith, baptism, holiness, and perseverance, yet they also taught that eternal life is the gift of God (Rom. 6:23), that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves (Eph. 2:8-9), and that no flesh will be justified by works (Rom. 3:20).

Not by the works of the Law.
All the things you mentioned are considered works, by the radical anti-works set.

Therefore, I do not oppose obedience at all.
I oppose making obedience the thing that earns justification.

Being obedient is the only way to receive justification.
We have to turn from sin and get baptized, to receive it.

Scripture presents obedience as the response of faith, not the purchase price of salvation.
If our salvation is ultimately in our own hands, then Christ did not save sinners; He merely made salvation possible and left the final outcome to human performance.

Christ made it possible for us to manifest our true beliefs from day to day.
Salvation is dependant on our actions.
God has given us the "car", but we must do the "steering", or we will end up in the ditch.

Yet Jesus said, "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10:28), and Paul said that the one who began a good work in believers will complete it (Phil. 1:6).

He will complete it in the faithful.
But not in the unfaithful/disobedient.

The biblical tension is that believers must endure, repent, and obey, but their confidence rests in God's grace and Christ's work, not in their own ability to secure their final salvation.

The supposed tension, is the product of the false doctrine of the anti-works sect.
If they would only honestly add "....of the Law" to their program, I would be right there with them.
Nobody but me will be accountable for my life, and I will do everything in my power to be found innocent on the day of judgement.
God makes it possible for me to walk with confidence that His gifts are sufficient for that task.

 

[mailmandan]

I hope you realize that the works mentioned were the works of the Law.
That is the only works Paul ever wrote against...circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Obedience to God is of paramount importance to our eventual day of judgement.

Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law. In Romans 4:2, works are not works of the law and Abraham was before the law of Moses. Also, in Titus 3:5, Paul said t is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. So, as you can see, Paul does not merely limit works only to specific works of the law but also includes works in general.

 

[Freed18]

I appreciate the spirit of that prayer.
Scripture does point toward the day when sin will finally be gone from God's people.

That day passed on the day Christ was resurrected from the dead.
Since then, we have been able to be baptized into His death, burial, and resurrction, so we can walk in newness of life.

Yet until that day, repentance remains necessary because "if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" (1 John 1:8), and believers are instructed to confess their sins (1 John 1:9).

Any second repentance shows that the first one was a lie to God.
We can't build a relationship with God that is based on lies.

I certainly hope to grow in love for God and neighbor, because "love is the fulfilling of the law" (Rom. 13:10), and everyone who abides in Christ should walk as He walked (1 John 2:6).

Amen.

At the same time, my confidence is not that I will someday reach a level of obedience where repentance becomes unnecessary in this present age, but that Christ is faithful to complete the work He began in His people (Phil. 1:6).

There are no 'levels of obedience'.
There is only obedience and disobedience.

The goal is not merely less repentance, but greater conformity to Christ.

Have you ever read Gal 3:27 ?..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
How can one not be conformed to Christ if they have "put Him on" ?

Until He comes, I expect to keep fighting sin, keep repenting when I fail, and keep trusting in the mercy of God revealed in Jesus Christ.

Instead of fighting sin, fight the temptation to sin.
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

 

[OMC]

OK, so you are not one of the "I can't do anything for my own salvation" ists.
While we can do plenty for our own good.

I agree that we can and should repent, obey, resist temptation, and pursue holiness, but Scripture distinguishes between what believers are commanded to do and what actually justifies a sinner before God, which Paul says is faith apart from works (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9).

He won't justify the disobedient either.
Justificatiion is the product of the justifying blood of Christ being applied to the repentant person at his "immersion into Christ's death.
As repentnace makes one an ex-sinner, and baptism cleans us of past sins, the justification occurs at the same time of the cleaning.
All that is left for us to do, is endure faithfully obedient until the end.

I agree that God does not justify those who remain in willful rebellion, and I agree that repentance, baptism, and perseverance are all taught in Scripture; where I differ is that Romans 4:5 says God justifies the ungodly who believe, meaning justification is granted to the sinner who comes to God in faith, not because he has first become righteous enough to merit it.
Repentance does not make a person an ex-sinner in the sense of becoming worthy of justification, because even after conversion believers still need Christ's advocacy when they sin (1 John 2:1).
Baptism is profoundly important, but the cleansing power is in Christ's blood, not in the act itself.
We both agree that believers must endure faithfully to the end; my point is simply that our endurance is the fruit of God's saving work, not the payment by which we secure our final acceptance before Him.
The sinner is justified because of Christ, and the justified sinner is then called to walk in obedience.

The two are inexorably entwined.
I obey God becuse I love Him and He commands it: and if I don't, my name will be erased from the book of life.

I agree that love-driven obedience and the warnings about perseverance belong together, but I would still distinguish between obeying because Christ is worthy and obeying in order to earn or maintain justification, since Scripture grounds justification in faith while calling the justified to endure in faithful obedience.

Not by the works of the Law.
All the things you mentioned are considered works, by the radical anti-works set.

I agree that some people wrongly dismiss repentance, baptism, and obedience because they fear "works," but even if we limit Paul's immediate context to works of the Law, Paul still distinguishes between the obedience that flows from faith and the works by which a person attempts to establish his own righteousness before God (Rom. 3:20; 4:4-5; Phil. 3:9).

Being obedient is the only way to receive justification.
We have to turn from sin and get baptized, to receive it.

I agree that repentance and baptism are commanded responses to the gospel, but if obedience is the thing that receives justification because it earns God's acceptance, then justification is no longer being received by grace through faith but as something secured by human performance, which is the distinction Paul is addressing in Romans 4:4-5.

Christ made it possible for us to manifest our true beliefs from day to day.
Salvation is dependant on our actions.
God has given us the "car", but we must do the "steering", or we will end up in the ditch.

I agree that believers must actively persevere and that those who abandon Christ are warned of judgment, but I would say the "car" itself, the road, the fuel, and even our ability to steer are gifts of God's grace, so while our actions matter, salvation ultimately depends on God's saving work rather than our independent ability to keep ourselves saved (John 15:5; Phil. 2:12-13; Jude 24).

He will complete it in the faithful.
But not in the unfaithful/disobedient.

I agree that Scripture warns the unfaithful and calls believers to persevere, but Philippians 1:6 emphasizes God's faithfulness in completing His work, so the question is not whether true faith endures, but whether that endurance is ultimately grounded in God's preserving grace or in man's ability to remain faithful.

The supposed tension, is the product of the false doctrine of the anti-works sect.
If they would only honestly add "....of the Law" to their program, I would be right there with them.
Nobody but me will be accountable for my life, and I will do everything in my power to be found innocent on the day of judgement.
God makes it possible for me to walk with confidence that His gifts are sufficient for that task.

I agree that each person is accountable for his life and that God's gifts are sufficient for faithful obedience, but Scripture's tension remains because the same Bible that commands perseverance also says that justification is not by works and that our ultimate confidence rests in God's mercy and Christ's righteousness rather than in our own ability to stand innocent before Him (Rom. 4:5; Phil. 3:9; Titus 3:5).

 

[Freed18]

Paul does not merely limit "works" only to specific works of the law.

Yes he does.

In Romans 4:2, works are not works of the law and Abraham was before the law of Moses.

Had you gone down a few more verses, the Law is mentioned..."For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:13)

Also, in Titus 3:5, Paul said t is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. So, as you can see, Paul does not merely limit works only to specific works of the law but also includes works in general.

Please name a general work that will not contribute to our salvation.
Believing ?
Turning permanently from sin ?
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?
Resisting temptation ?
Remaining faithful until the end of time ?
Going out of our way for a neighbor ?
Are you ready to omit any of these things from your life because they are non-Law works ?