Obedience REQUIRED

[NightTwister]

Here is the post 322 exchange..."

It seem that you prefer disobedience...(I hope I am reading that wrong).
Obedience is the natural fruit of rebirth from God's seed.
Those opposed to obedience to God and His Son, seem to be unregenerated.
And are still bearing the devil's fruit."

What witness of any sort is in that ?

You bore false witness against me by saying I believe something that I don't. That's sinful.

 

[Roger316]

OK so we have our first contestant who is saying we can live in disobedience and still be saved.

That's not what he said. He didn't say that we live in disobedience. He rightly points out that obedience, by itself, means nothing.

Bottom line here is Jesus is the author of eternal salvation ONLY to them that obey Him.

This is not what Paul said. He is not saying that we are saved because we obey. He is saying that obedience characterizes those whom God is saving.

Those that disobey the Lord are living in obedience to the devil.

Romans 6:16 states: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

You need to learn ASAP that disobedience is death and death is being separated from the Lord

Learn to obey with your heart, soul AND mind.

 

[Freed18]

You bore false witness against me by saying I believe something that I don't. That's sinful.

You really should reread what is printed.

 

[Freed18]

Romans 5:18 - Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"...by one man's obedience many were made righteous..."
Being righteous eliminates being unrighteous.
As to the OP, obedience is the natural result of hearing and believing, repenting and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As I just stated, the ultimate aim of the doctrine you present is the abolishment of obdience to God...starting with repentnace from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
I suppose rebirth is also on their agenda ?

Well I was baptised a year after I was saved. and will hopefully be baptising a few people here in the near future.

but thanks for your false accusation

I am glad of that, so you must realize the penalty for not serving God.

The obedience of converts is the result of belief in God's graceful power to change us from dead in trespasses and sin, to alive in Christ Jesus.
That change comes via faith that God's gifts of repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins can effectivly transform us from lovers of wickedness to lovers of Godliness.

Obey th gospel my friend. become as the tax collector. do not try to get to god like the pharisee. you will not be happy

 

[NightTwister]

You really should reread what is printed.

I understood it clearly. I knew you wouldn't admit to it. As Jesus once said, "go and sin no more."

 

[amazingrace]

It depends on what "IF" means!

thks

(((Conditional perseverance))

ex 20 mt 19:17 1 tim 6:14 keep the commandments
deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God within all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
ez 36:25-27 ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mk 13:13 mt 10:22 endure to the end
Matt 7:14 narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life
Matt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 3:16 continues in believing
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Jn 15:10 keep my commandments
Rom 1:5 obedience
Rom 8:13-17 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness:
1 cor 7:24 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:13 (3) three things are eternal; faith, hope and charity and the greatest is charity.
2 thes 1:4 faith & patience
heb 6:12 faith and patience inherit the promises.
Gal 5:2-4 fallen
Gal 5:25 if we live in the spirit
Col 1:21-23 If ye continue in the faith
Col 2:5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:3 endure hardship
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1 tim 5:12 lost faith
1 pet 2:20 if we suffer patiently
1 Jn 2:24-28 grace must abide in us
1 Jn 3:6 abideth in Him (Christ)
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 if they fall away
Heb 12:7 if ye endure
Heb 12:22-25 if we turn away
James 1:12 endureth

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13
He who endures to the end shall be saved.

rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Perseverance is conditional and requires our participation and faithfulness!

r

 

[amazingrace]

the royal virtues of Jesus Christ!

Luke 21:19
In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luke 8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Romans 5:3-5

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

1 Timothy 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2 Timothy 3:10
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

Titus 2:2
That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done they will of God, ye might receive the promise.

James 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

2 Peter 1:6
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (rev 12:17)

thks

 

[amazingrace]

I understood it clearly. I knew you wouldn't admit to it. As Jesus once said, "go and sin no more."

why bother if I already have salvation by faith alone?

What need of we for humility, patience, & perseverance!

Who says I can't rob banks, muder the gaurds, and waste the money on drunkeness and whore unrepentant and when I die go winging off to the glory of heaven?

If I'm really saved by faith alone!

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Romans 5:18 - Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

yes righteousness, a life fulfilling the deeds of righteousness in Christ putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Lk 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 Jn 3:15 1
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

thks

 

[rogerg]

Faith cometh by hearing, (Rom 10:17), so your order is not correct.
And being dead in tresspasses and sins doesn't make a man deaf to a new way of life.
The dead can be reborn of God's seed !
It is a choice provide by God to everyone.
Every single convert to Christianity was once dead in trespasses and sins.
The true converts have been regenerated thru baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of those past sins, and also raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Thanks be to God for making that choice available to all mankind !

You are shifting the discussion to unrelated matters such as water baptism and natural hearing, distracting from the central issue and truth: that Jesus Christ alone is the complete Savior. Ephesians 2:1 and 2:5 show that man contributes nothing to his transition from spiritual death to spiritual life; it is God who makes the dead alive, not man. A spiritual corpse cannot comprehend spiritual instructions, nor act to obtain life. True faith flows outward from a quickened heart, not inward through natural hearing. By making regeneration depend on human choices and water rituals, you would turn salvation into a human work—making man's actions, rather than Christ, the savior. So, whenever you post to me, I will return you back to this singular, decisive truth you will not be able to escape: that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior, and man is not.

 

[mailmandan]

John 8:31-32​

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Would you shoehorn "alone" into this passage?

Let me guess...no.

Unless you hold to His teachings (a work) you will never know the truth.

This is the blindness of your faith alone regeneration theology.

Speaking of blindness, I see that you simply ignored the passages of scripture that I shared with you. John 8:31-32 is not about salvation by faith and works as you would suppose. The Jews who continue in His word demonstrate that they truly are His disciples.

John 8:31 - So, Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly My disciples. As we continue to read on all the way down to verse 59, we see that not all of these Jews believed in Jesus unto salvation and were truly His disciples, but instead were children of the devil.

 

[mailmandan]

yes righteousness, a life fulfilling the deeds of righteousness in Christ putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

See Romans 8:8-11.

Lk 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

See Titus 3:5.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 Jn 3:15 1
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

thks

Try not to confuse imputed righteousness and practicing righteousness with self righteousness.

 

[amazingrace]

Yes, Jesus repented for us:

[Act 5:31 KJV] – 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And from/ because/ as a result of His repentance, we repent from trust in our works for salvation unto full and complete trust in Jesus Christ's works as Savior for our salvation,

God gives the grace but we must repent!

and repent from dead works & works of the flesh to works of righteousness!

thks

Romans 14:18
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

rom 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

rom 5:1-2

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (in grace not salvation, and we grow in grace by good works 2 pet 3:18 and by deadly sin we can lose God's grace,
Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1-4
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
2 cor 4:7
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27
rom 8:1
can lose grace gal 5:4
can have grace in vain 1 cor 15:10
treasure in earthen vessels 2 cor 4:7
fragile can be lost
1 Jn 3:15 no life (grace)


rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[Lamar]

Obedience is work. You believe in works righteousness. It's only your delusion that you're sinless that makes it plausible. Your obedience will not save you.

Call it what you wish but obedience is not an option.

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command.
1st John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

You bore false witness against me by saying I believe something that I don't. That's sinful.

False witness???

I have seen you label people as attempting to earn their salvation by simply following God's directions. Something they most certainly do not believe.

 

[rogerg]

God gives the grace but we must repent!

and repent from dead works & works of the flesh to works of righteousness!

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

3 John 1:11 - Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

If one is not doing good works, it's because they are busy doing evil works.

Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

thks

 

[NightTwister]

why bother if I already have salvation by faith alone?

What need of we for humility, patience, & perseverance!

Who says I can't rob banks, muder the gaurds, and waste the money on drunkeness and whore unrepentant and when I die go winging off to the glory of heaven?

If I'm really saved by faith alone!

thks

Why bother?

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Because that's what Jesus wants from us.

Works follow Faith because we are changed.

 

[amazingrace]

By the grace of justification received by faith and baptism we have union with God thru Christ, in the communion of saints, empowered by grace and life in the spirit to attain to eternal salvation in glory!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing.

phil 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;


ps 23:3
He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name sake

how is this possible without works?

mt 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Lk 21:36 / mt 24:48 / mt 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

how is this possible without works?

mt 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

how is this possible without works?

mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

mt 3:8 / 2 cor 7:10
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

how is this possible without works?

Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit

how is this possible without works?

Lk 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

how is this possible without works?

acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness

how is this possible without works?

((suffering))

Lk 9:23 deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

how is this possible without works?

((patience))

col 1:11 patience
heb 6:12 faith & patience
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

how is this possible without works?

heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

how is this possible without works?

((keep the commandments))

deut 6:5 / mt 19:17 / Jn 14:21 / 1 cor 7:19 / 1Jn 3:24 / 1 Jn 5:2-3 / rev 12:17

rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith

how is this possible without works?

eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

how is this possible without works?

mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

how is this possible without works?

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

how is this possible without works?

HOW IS ANY OF THIS POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS???

thks

no response? duly noted:

thks

 

[NightTwister]

Call it what you wish but obedience is not an option.

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command.
1st John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,



False witness???

I have seen you label people as attempting to earn their salvation by simply following God's directions. Something they most certainly do not believe.

Yes, obedience isn't an option. Everyone who belongs to Jesus performs them, because He performs them in us. My salvation is completed by grace through faith, all of which comes from God. Your attempt at salvation comes from incomplete grace and faith which requires that you add your own works to complete it. You'll never get there. Your works will never be enough.