Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[posthuman]

I propose that we forgive their malice and slanderous posts and share scriptures that show where they are in error.....

i should think we ought to have started with this tact, and end with this, and also to fill the middle with it

Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.Likewise, David also speaks of the blessing of the man God credits righteousness to apart from works:
​

How joyful are those whose lawless acts are forgiven
and whose sins are covered!
How joyful is the man
the Lord will never charge with sin!
​

(Romans 4:4-8)


​

 

[posthuman]

This is the problem with not knowing Greek. You fail to understand the subtleties of things like conditional sentences.

"ἐὰν δὲ ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετ’ ἀλλήλων καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας." 1 John 1:7 Greek

This is a third class present conditional sentence, as evidenced by "if" being the word ean, ἐὰν in the Greek, which is a combination of the "ei" and the particle "an." The verb is in the subjunctive - tepipatomen περιπατῶμεν. Instead of saying that something about a specific event that might happen - If... then, it is stating a general truth, an axiomatic truth. The subjunctive is appropriate because the truth of the statement is timeless.

So no to IF being conditional in this case. It in fact describes the truth of walking with God, which leads to the timeless truth of fellowship with one another and being cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ.

how wonderful to wake up and see Peter posting scripture, and to learn this, and now to know!

thanks be to God!

i love you, elder sister ♥

 

[JaumeJ]

It is true that a very large segment of the grace only people believe and have stated those who believe in being children of obedience, that is, who believe they should obey God in all Three Persons, are legalists and under the law.

No protests please, for if this were not the case, there would be no controversy.

Either those in Christ obey Him or they are not in Christ........simple.

This is not a challenge for a response, for any response would be from the grace only extremists..........thank you.

 

[posthuman]

far be it from me ever to say we should not be obedient!

For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be glory forever. Amen.
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
(Romans 11:36-12:2)
​

doesn't this teach me, that my obedience is neither to earn nor keep the free gift of His grace, but is wisdom, and my act of grateful worship?

 

[JaumeJ]

Of course your quotes are true.......now Ephesians 2 goes well with your selection. Actually I do not wish to simpley select one chapter, no, all of Ephesians teaches on the subject well. Pivotal word, all.

 

[JaumeJ]

Something all should always consider and keep foremost in mind when reading the Epistles, and that is that the authors are unanimous that the only Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, therefore a adjure all in good conscience to always do as Jesus Christ teaches.

Yes, He came first to His original flock, the Hebrews, but He joined the other flock, Gentiles who believe Him, to be one with the Hebrews making us God's chosen with the Hebrews.

Because He came to save the Hebrews first, His Gospel as taught to them most certainly applies to those joined to them. You may prefer the word, Jews, and that is fine as long as you know they are but one of the twelve tribes of the Hebrews.

What Jesus taught them is not a lie, but applies to all who have been joined to them.........remember always, there is only one Gospel, that of Jesus Christ.....or do you prefer Yeshua?

 

[PeterJens]

This is called "pulling things out of context."

I have to apologise for specifically for one thing. My style is just to share how things come across.
Now with so many different issues going on at the same time it is difficult to focus on one verse and the context or not of a verse. I may have missed your point, or simply not had enough time to grasp my failure or mistake, which I know I make many as this subject is so vast.

I share this way, because often it is not a right or wrong insight, but just another area which builds up the body.

Jesus says,

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:13-14

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ephesians, The book of hope. and security in God

1. He has blessed us who are in christ with every spiritual blessing we can think imaginable

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

2. Before God laid the foundations of the earth, He already knew our nae, He chose us to be holy and without blame before God in Love through his son, Predestined to be adopted as sons and daughters of God, Making us accepted in the beloved.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

3. In Christ, We are redeemed, We have the forgiveness of all sin, According to the riches of his grace (which scripture says is unending) which he made to abound to all of us who he has adopted as sons and daughters, Having made known to us his will, and his purpose and his life.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace [SUP]8 [/SUP]which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, [SUP]9 [/SUP]having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

4. God will, That when this dispensation ends, God will gather all his children who are in christ

[SUP]10 [/SUP]that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[SUP][a][/SUP] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

5. In him, we have on our possession an inheritance, being predestined again according to his purpose and his will, We, who have faith in Christ, have been made his Giving God the glory

[SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

6. If this is not enough, He has given those who have trusted the true gospel of salvation, his spirit as a seal. A seal which is the guarantee, pr pledge of his promise, Until we are redeemed in glory at that day of resurrection.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

6. Paul prays deeply that we all understand the things above and through this, we may KNOW without a dount.

The Hope of his calling
the riches of his glory and inheritance to all his children set apart by God.
That all who believe are kept by his power and might,
His power in that he rose Christ from the dead, and seated him in the seat of Glory above all things

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, [SUP]18 [/SUP]the eyes of your understanding[SUP][c][/SUP] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power [SUP]20 [/SUP]which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, [SUP]21 [/SUP]far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come

Ah yes, Eternal security in Christ, Whose of us who first trusted Christ carry this hope and all God gave is un our hands,, lets pray and share this glory and hope offered in Christ so they can share it with us,

amen.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are called to the "obedience of faith"..this faith in Christ and in His finished work allows His life to flow in and through us to do all that the Lord wants to do through us as good works. We are one with Him.

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,


Romans 16:25-26 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Christ was the obedient One and His life is us by faith in Him causes this obedience to be manifested in us.

Obedience in us is a result of His righteousness and His righteousness being imputed onto us. It's His life and righteousness being manifested.

Romans 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is the problem with not knowing Greek. You fail to understand the subtleties of things like conditional sentences.

"ἐὰν δὲ ἐν τῷ φωτὶ περιπατῶμεν ὡς αὐτός ἐστιν ἐν τῷ φωτί, κοινωνίαν ἔχομεν μετ’ ἀλλήλων καὶ τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας." 1 John 1:7 Greek

This is a third class present conditional sentence, as evidenced by "if" being the word ean, ἐὰν in the Greek, which is a combination of the "ei" and the particle "an." The verb is in the subjunctive - tepipatomen περιπατῶμεν. Instead of saying that something about a specific event that might happen - If... then, it is stating a general truth, an axiomatic truth. The subjunctive is appropriate because the truth of the statement is timeless.

So no to IF being conditional in this case. It in fact describes the truth of walking with God, which leads to the timeless truth of fellowship with one another and being cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ.

I used to take what you said without criticism. No more. What you said regarding Greek may be technically correct (but I doubt it), but your conclusion is absurd. The very context of the 1 John 1:5-8 pericope proves that fellowship with GOD is conditional upon our walking in the light. Are you applying the same rule to 1 John 1:8 - since we say we have fellowship with GOD but walk in darkness, we are lying? Do you see how ridiculous your conclusion is?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I guess I'm not privy on the situation of the group. But the way I understand the Christian faith is that anything that upholds the unadulterated Gospel is the same faith we've had for 2000 years. Everything else, while either true or false, does not make or break someone's Christianity. That goes for laws, regulations, theology, eschatology, etc. As long as we both share the same Gospel we need to learn to get along.

The problem is that things have crept in over the centuries that have perverted the true gospel, such that those who think they see, don't see.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

far be it from me ever to say we should not be obedient!

For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be glory forever. Amen.
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
(Romans 11:36-12:2)
​

doesn't this teach me, that my obedience is neither to earn nor keep the free gift of His grace, but is wisdom, and my act of grateful worship?

Yes it is wisdom because wisdom teaches that those who worship GOD, but don't do the will of GOD will be lost.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

 

[Grace777x70]

I guess I'm not privy on the situation of the group. But the way I understand the Christian faith is that anything that upholds the unadulterated Gospel is the same faith we've had for 2000 years. Everything else, while either true or false, does not make or break someone's Christianity. That goes for laws, regulations, theology, eschatology, etc. As long as we both share the same Gospel we need to learn to get along.

Unfortunately the true gospel of the grace of Christ was attacked from the very beginning. By the time Paul went to Jerusalem in Acts 21...the gospel had been watered down by people coming in and "adding" things you must do to the grace of God.

There were "thousands" of them that had fallen from grace and were depending on their own self-righteousness and works.. Satan comes immediately to take the word away from believing in the finished work of Christ alone by grace through faith.

Acts 21:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; ( self-effort/righteousness/holiness )

Paul himself had the Judaizers that would come in to every city he preached to pervert the gospel..it's the same today.

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[Grace777x70]

Context is king when viewing all scripture.....scripture must be compared with other scripture - or you can make the bible say anything you want....

Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..Jesus said "I never knew you "...these people were not believers.....everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....

Jesus never said that " He once knew them...but He NEVER knew them at all "

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, andknow my sheep, and am known of mine.



Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. we walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....how foolish this nonsense is.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say not doing all the will of God are not saved - without factoring in the finished work of our Lord Jesus for He is our salvation.

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Unfortunately the true gospel of the grace of Christ was attacked from the very beginning. By the time Paul went to Jerusalem in Acts 21...the gospel had been watered down by people coming in and "adding" things you must do to the grace of God.

There were "thousands" of them that had fallen from grace and were depending on their own self-righteousness and works.. Satan comes immediately to take the word away from believing in the finished work of Christ alone by grace through faith.

The gospel was attacked initially by Judaizers, but then later by Christian gnostics who eventually brought the church into bondage with some of their ideas.

 

[Grandpa]

The gospel was attacked initially by Judaizers, but then later by Christian gnostics who eventually brought the church into bondage with some of their ideas.

What works did the gnostics add to the gospel in order to be saved and stay saved?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What works did the gnostics add to the gospel in order to be saved and stay saved?

The work of believing their version of the gospel.

 

[gb9]

The work of believing their version of the gospel.

you mean like your version of the Gospel, where you are kind of sort of maybe saved, but you might not be, but if you do right, then possibly, but if you don't do right long enough............... this is your version of the Gospel, just as messed up as theirs ways.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The work of believing their version of the gospel.

I hope you have more than this, if this is all the proof you have that the gnostics changed the gospel. And added works, and this is all you have, you would be laughed out of the courtroom.