Skinski I have never spoken evil of you who claim to be sinless, I have spoken against it as it is not the truth but never have I spoken evil. Do I have a pure heart? I have been told I do but in my view I do not because until my heart is just like his it can never be pure to me. Now will you explain to me what you think the scripture I posted means?
Ok I have one scripture for the sinless
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I am not OSAS, but I do believe God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Jason does make a good point about our relationship to sin after we are saved by God's grace. I would suggest that he should have said "there are those who believe..." rather than painting all of OSAS with a broad brush.
I find broad statements on both sides of the OSAS aisle objectionable. And in case anyone is wondering, I dont have a position on OSAS. But after I have been there 10,000 years, I might get around to asking my Savior about it.
Dont be surprised if I dont respond to any vitriolic replies to my post no matter how much scripture is quoted in them.
I find broad statements on both sides of the OSAS aisle objectionable. And in case anyone is wondering, I dont have a position on OSAS. But after I have been there 10,000 years, I might get around to asking my Savior about it.
Dont be surprised if I dont respond to any vitriolic replies to my post no matter how much scripture is quoted in them.
Thus salvation is viewed by the OSAS believers as a purely positional in application. One can be "saved" and at the same time be engaged in a rebellious act to God. The reason they can believe this is usually because they hold to the 400 year old doctrine of Penal Substitution in which they think the death of Christ achieved a legal transaction. They think that Jesus was punished in their stead and bore the full wrath of God thus cancelling it out on their behalf. Thus all sin, past, present and future is already "paid for in full." Often they will also believe that the literal obedience "track record" of Jesus is credited to their account. Thus God looks at them through a "Jesus filter" and doesn't see their manifest wickedness but instead see the righteousness of Jesus. In other words their doctrine paints God as a great pretender.
There are several different folks who would fall into this category.
#1. The OSAS proponent and Antinomian thinks they are sinless spiritually but they are not sinless on a physical level. They believe all sin is forgiven, past, present, and future. It's a clever deception in saying they have no sin and yet they do sin. In other words, what they believe is a contradiction and it excuses them in getting away with the idea that they can never stop sinning or to think they will always sin on some level on occasion. But we both know there is no excuse for sin. Not even a little bit of sin on occasion. For to say that one will never stop sinning is to say one is a slave to sin. But true believers are slaves to righteousness and not sin, though. In fact, some in this camp think that just because they sin less, they are right with God (Hence, why I would label them as the sinless camp).
#2. The Works Salvationist believes that by keeping a set of rules alone will save them. That it is not God that does the work in the believer, but it is all themselves that truly determines their ultimate salvation. They must focus on rituals and deeds to be right with God. This camp usually tends to follow the Law of Moses in addition to the New Covenant Commands. However, the New Covenant Law of Christ replaces the Old Testament Law of Moses, though. Some Works Salvationists think they are keeping all of God's Commands. However, they really cannot be, though. The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ do not even agree with one another. They are two different sets of Commands that conflict with each other in several places. Granted, there are some in this camp that will admit they sin, but they confess of it, though.
#3. The true believer confesses and forsakes sin (Which is what repentance is all about). For Jesus defined repentance for us when he said that the Ninevites repented at the preaching of Jonah. If we were to read Jonah chapter 3, we would learn that the Ninevites forsaked their wicked ways as a part of their repentance. Jesus also said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. So Christ desires that we forsake sin. Now, does this mean the true believer may not faulter or stumble? No. But the true believer will always confess and forsake sin and in time cease or stop in their sinful ways. See 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Peter 2:1, 14.
The true believer does not think they are justified by the Law or in Law keeping in and of itself alone. They believe they get right with God thru confession of sin and in turning from sin or evil. They believe God helps them to forsake their sin and that He works in them to follow His good ways. They believe God (who lives within them) is the source of their salvation (See 1 John 5:12).
#1. The OSAS proponent and Antinomian thinks they are sinless spiritually but they are not sinless on a physical level. They believe all sin is forgiven, past, present, and future. It's a clever deception in saying they have no sin and yet they do sin. In other words, what they believe is a contradiction and it excuses them in getting away with the idea that they can never stop sinning or to think they will always sin on some level on occasion. But we both know there is no excuse for sin. Not even a little bit of sin on occasion. For to say that one will never stop sinning is to say one is a slave to sin. But true believers are slaves to righteousness and not sin, though. In fact, some in this camp think that just because they sin less, they are right with God (Hence, why I would label them as the sinless camp).
#2. The Works Salvationist believes that by keeping a set of rules alone will save them. That it is not God that does the work in the believer, but it is all themselves that truly determines their ultimate salvation. They must focus on rituals and deeds to be right with God. This camp usually tends to follow the Law of Moses in addition to the New Covenant Commands. However, the New Covenant Law of Christ replaces the Old Testament Law of Moses, though. Some Works Salvationists think they are keeping all of God's Commands. However, they really cannot be, though. The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ do not even agree with one another. They are two different sets of Commands that conflict with each other in several places. Granted, there are some in this camp that will admit they sin, but they confess of it, though.
#3. The true believer confesses and forsakes sin (Which is what repentance is all about). For Jesus defined repentance for us when he said that the Ninevites repented at the preaching of Jonah. If we were to read Jonah chapter 3, we would learn that the Ninevites forsaked their wicked ways as a part of their repentance. Jesus also said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. So Christ desires that we forsake sin. Now, does this mean the true believer may not faulter or stumble? No. But the true believer will always confess and forsake sin and in time cease or stop in their sinful ways. See 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Peter 2:1, 14.
The true believer does not think they are justified by the Law or in Law keeping in and of itself alone. They believe they get right with God thru confession of sin and in turning from sin or evil. They believe God helps them to forsake their sin and that He works in them to follow His good ways. They believe God (who lives within them) is the source of their salvation (See 1 John 5:12).
I did explain what 1 John 1:8 means. 1 John 1:8 is in the context of coming clean with God.
The Bible teaches we approach God with a TRUE heart via the blood of Jesus seeking a cleansing. That means that we come clean with God in repentance. We confess our wrongdoing and do not deny it. We cannot come to God seeking reconciliation and claim we have no sin. We have all sinned.
How hard is that to understand?
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Being cleansed of all sin is contingent of walking in the light. If we walk in the light having come clean about our rebellion and iniquity then God cleanses us of ALL sin and from ALL unrighteousness.
You are claiming that you are still filthy.
The Bible teaches that faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9) and yet you claim that your heart is not pure. What kind of faith do you have then? Your faith obviously has failed to purify your heart.
Paul wrote that Jesus gave Himself in order to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Yet your claim confess that that has not occurred in your life. Your are still in bondage to wickedness are you not?
If you claim to be saved what have you actually been saved from? Certainly not sin because you still cling to a confession that you are sinful and impure.
Peter spoke of how obedience to the truth through the spirit purifies the souls of the saints wherby we can love one another with pure hearts.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
If your new birth is not inclusive of heart purity wrought through obedience through the Spirit then I would say that the new birth you believe in is a hoax.
The Bible teaches we approach God with a TRUE heart via the blood of Jesus seeking a cleansing. That means that we come clean with God in repentance. We confess our wrongdoing and do not deny it. We cannot come to God seeking reconciliation and claim we have no sin. We have all sinned.
How hard is that to understand?
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Being cleansed of all sin is contingent of walking in the light. If we walk in the light having come clean about our rebellion and iniquity then God cleanses us of ALL sin and from ALL unrighteousness.
You are claiming that you are still filthy.
The Bible teaches that faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9) and yet you claim that your heart is not pure. What kind of faith do you have then? Your faith obviously has failed to purify your heart.
Paul wrote that Jesus gave Himself in order to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Yet your claim confess that that has not occurred in your life. Your are still in bondage to wickedness are you not?
If you claim to be saved what have you actually been saved from? Certainly not sin because you still cling to a confession that you are sinful and impure.
Peter spoke of how obedience to the truth through the spirit purifies the souls of the saints wherby we can love one another with pure hearts.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
If your new birth is not inclusive of heart purity wrought through obedience through the Spirit then I would say that the new birth you believe in is a hoax.
I find it interesting you think you know my heart. So simply because I do not have confidence that my heart is pure that means my being born again was fake? I cannot simply say my heart is pure or even fully believe that because that sounds quite prideful and pride is something I make sure to steer clear away from. If being sinless is what it takes to be saved then none would be saved
Salvation is a state of having been set free from sin.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
We are saved FROM sin. The Bible states that matter of factly.
Jesus Himself stated...
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Do you believe Jesus?
oh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Do you understand the words of Jesus? Can you even hear the words of Jesus?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Have you been set free indeed from the service of sin?
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Don't you know that whom you serve is whom you belong to? If you serve sin then you are the servant of sin, if you serve righteousness then you are the servant of righteousness.
Thank God that some of us have been set free from the service of sin through us being obedience to the doctrine delivered by Jesus Christ. We have been set free from sin and made servants of righteousness.
Are you one of those people? Have you been set free from sin Blain? Not according to your words you haven't.
In fact it seems the reason Jesus gave Himself for us has not yet had a manifest application to your life yet...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
These things speak.
Do you despise this message Blain?
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
We are saved FROM sin. The Bible states that matter of factly.
Jesus Himself stated...
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Do you believe Jesus?
oh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Do you understand the words of Jesus? Can you even hear the words of Jesus?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Have you been set free indeed from the service of sin?
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Don't you know that whom you serve is whom you belong to? If you serve sin then you are the servant of sin, if you serve righteousness then you are the servant of righteousness.
Thank God that some of us have been set free from the service of sin through us being obedience to the doctrine delivered by Jesus Christ. We have been set free from sin and made servants of righteousness.
Are you one of those people? Have you been set free from sin Blain? Not according to your words you haven't.
In fact it seems the reason Jesus gave Himself for us has not yet had a manifest application to your life yet...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
These things speak.
Do you despise this message Blain?
Your ability to pick apart scriptures to use for your view is impressive but I saw something that concerned me
you said
Thank God that some of us have been set free from the service of sin through us being obedience to the doctrine delivered by Jesus Christ. We have been set free from sin and made servants of righteousness.
this reminded me of this-Luke18:10 The Pharisee and Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
you said
Thank God that some of us have been set free from the service of sin through us being obedience to the doctrine delivered by Jesus Christ. We have been set free from sin and made servants of righteousness.
this reminded me of this-Luke18:10 The Pharisee and Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
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We were not to be like the children of Israel circling the foot of the mountain, sinning saying sorry and doing the same thing again and again. If a man was to behave like this in the armed forces, he would be courtmarshalled.
Christ came to set us free from that because it is bondage and we are to be free to act righteously, not as a position but from a clean and pure heart.
It was you who claimed that your heart is impure Blain by your very own words. I never claimed to know your heart, yet I can read your words and those words speak a lot concerning you.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Is that a prideful statement in Acts?
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
It is not prideful to testify of having been cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness and henceforth been made pure Blain. In fact that ought to be the testimony of every Christian. It doesn't mean we are perfect in all things, it simply means our hearts have been cleaned. We still have to learn and grow. God brings us correction if we err in ignorance, we apply what we learn and move on. Yet our hearts are clean. We love God and we love our neighbour. There is no pride in this.
Sinless to be saved? The Bible does not say that. The Bible teaches that in order to be saved we have to forsake all rebellion to God and come clean about it. Being sinless is the RESULT of the reconciliation process, not the cause. If one has not been cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness then one has not touched the blood of Jesus Christ so to speak.
That is all I have to say on this matter because everything I have written is very clear. Like many others, you expect people like me to address verses like 1Joh 1:8 and yet you skip over passages I show you, even the very words of Jesus Christ. I'll continue to answer any serious questions but I will not dance to the tune of insincerity and dogmatism, therefore think carefully before you ask anything else. May it go well with you.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Is that a prideful statement in Acts?
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
It is not prideful to testify of having been cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness and henceforth been made pure Blain. In fact that ought to be the testimony of every Christian. It doesn't mean we are perfect in all things, it simply means our hearts have been cleaned. We still have to learn and grow. God brings us correction if we err in ignorance, we apply what we learn and move on. Yet our hearts are clean. We love God and we love our neighbour. There is no pride in this.
Sinless to be saved? The Bible does not say that. The Bible teaches that in order to be saved we have to forsake all rebellion to God and come clean about it. Being sinless is the RESULT of the reconciliation process, not the cause. If one has not been cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness then one has not touched the blood of Jesus Christ so to speak.
That is all I have to say on this matter because everything I have written is very clear. Like many others, you expect people like me to address verses like 1Joh 1:8 and yet you skip over passages I show you, even the very words of Jesus Christ. I'll continue to answer any serious questions but I will not dance to the tune of insincerity and dogmatism, therefore think carefully before you ask anything else. May it go well with you.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
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Check this out...
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Purify your hearts.
Why do people refuse to do what James calls for people to do?
1. Submission to God.
2. Resist the devil.
3. Draw near to God.
4. Cleanse hands.
5. Purify the heart.
6. Godly sorrow.
7. Be humble and then be lifted up.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Purify your hearts.
Why do people refuse to do what James calls for people to do?
1. Submission to God.
2. Resist the devil.
3. Draw near to God.
4. Cleanse hands.
5. Purify the heart.
6. Godly sorrow.
7. Be humble and then be lifted up.
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Check this out...
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
That is a very good point.
We see this in Revelation...
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
In other words there is no magic change of nature after physical death. If we are not made righteous and holy in this life then it will never occur.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
We see this in Revelation...
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
In other words there is no magic change of nature after physical death. If we are not made righteous and holy in this life then it will never occur.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
you don't sin? I don't get it your saying it's possible for one to not ever sin to be sinless yet at the same time it is possible to sin? that doesn't fit, if one can be without sin and not sin at all then it cannot be possible to be able to sin because if it can happen it will happen. sinning is even in your thoughts are you saying you have such great control over all your thoughts you human nature and weakness that you no longer sin in any way?