Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

Nope it is not. because not everyone will recieve the gift. Stop trying to argue against calvinism, and look to the word for what it says.. I hate calvinism as much as you do. but I am not going to try to defeat it at all costs. which would get me to overlook some things which would lead me astray.

Actually this is in error. God is omnipotent. He is also omniscient. God does want no one to perish. but he will not force his salvation on anyone. At the same time, In his omniscience he will not give salvation to people he knows will one day give him the finger and tell him where to shove his salvation. NOSAS is the group who is not taking God for who he is. Not osas.. again, Your argument is against calvinism. so you are not seeing what is there you need to back of the calvinist angle and look at the word for what it says


It is the work of God that we believe. We can not take credit for saving ourselves because we trust completely in someone else to save us. Thats why salvation is a gift. A gift is given to a person. it does not mean they have to recieve it. It is still theres even if they reject it. But by rejecting it they will never reap the benefits of that gift..

If you're saying there are no conditions to eternal life then and God just hands it freely then that's definitely not a Christian doctrine. I'm not so much arguing against Calvinism right now, but rather I'm showing you that you're a partial Calvinist and don't even know it. If OSAS requires no conditions then why does Jesus and the apostles say the exact opposite?

Jesus told people to believe and those who don't perish. Turns out, there were people who simply didn't believe. They didn't meet the condition therefore they perish. John 3:16

And Paul said that calling on the name of the Lord is conditional to being saved:

Romans 10
13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

As Jesus himself said, he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Then that means if someone doesn't hear the gospel in order to have a chance to believe it then they aren't condemned.

once again, Judas did not lose salvation, he never had it, He was condemned already, because he rejected the gift.

You're telling me you think Judas followed Jesus around for three years and didn't have any faith in Him even once? Witnessed the miracles, received all of the plain language divine revelation, additionally, received miracle power from Jesus when He sent out the apostles. No faith, just a non-believer? How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[nnrukshan15]

If We can lose our salvation, what must we do in order to keep it...can you give a list? you may give a list but remember salvation is without works. eph 2:8-9 makes it pretty clear about it. since we did not do anything to attain salvation, we can't also lose it because we contribute zero to have salvation. we are going to heaven because of what Jesus did. Our Justification comes by simple faith in the Gospel. Romans 4 tells us that simple faith of Abraham made him right before God. Salvation is a gift, If we have to do anything other than trust Christ , it will become a purchase rather than a gift.

For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”[a]
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:
7 “Oh, what joy for those
whose disobedience is forgiven,
whose sins are put out of sight.
8 Yes, what joy for those
whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.”[b]

Phil 1:6 God does not start something that he can not finish.

Philippians 1:6 NLT
“I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns

1 Corinthians 1:8

New King James Version

8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jude 24-25

King James Version



24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2 Timothy 1:12-14

King James Version



12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

King James Version



23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you're saying there are no conditions to eternal life then and God just hands it freely then that's definitely not a Christian doctrine. I'm not so much arguing against Calvinism right now, but rather I'm showing you that you're a partial Calvinist and don't even know it. If OSAS requires no conditions then why does Jesus and the apostles say the exact opposite?

Jesus told people to believe and those who don't perish. Turns out, there were people who simply didn't believe. They didn't meet the condition therefore they perish. John 3:16

And Paul said that calling on the name of the Lord is conditional to being saved:

Romans 10
13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”



Then that means if someone doesn't hear the gospel in order to have a chance to believe it then they aren't condemned.

Saying there are conditions which must be met is saying someone must earn their reward.

Salvation is a gift. You did not do anything to earn that gift. If you received it, then you will reap the benefits of that gift. if you reject it, then you will not. It does not mean the gift is not there.

A person who is rescued in a storm in the middle of the ocean did not save themselves because they allowed the rescuer to save them. they will give credit and glory to the one who saved them

on the other hand, if the person fights and continues to try to save themselves. they will perish.

the tax collector did not meet any condition. He simply became poor in spirit and called out to the one the only one who could save him.

You're telling me you think Judas followed Jesus around for three years and didn't have any faith in Him even once?

Witnessed the miracles, received all of the plain language divine revelation, additionally, received miracle power from Jesus when He sent out the apostles. No faith, just a non-believer? How did you come to that conclusion?

I am telling you what Jesus said

John 6: 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

Jesus knew from the begining. Judas did not surprise him

 

[cv5]

the salvation in Matt 24 refers to physical salvation ot spiritual salvation. It is spoken to those who are alive during the tribulation period. it is a message of hope. Endure until Christ comes, and you will be saved

this is where you get away from true spiritual salvation and what it means.

Absolutely correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do you understand being "saved as thru fire" in 1Corinthians 3 and Paul's reference to them "suffering loss"

Another great question!

The Bible uses "fire" as a metaphor for evaluation, and not just for final condemnation of the unsaved.

The words "gold, silver, jewels" refers to divine good produced in the power of the Holy Spirit, while "wood, hay straw" refers to human good, which stinks to God (Jer 64:6).

So, when believers will be evaluated on their works, "whether good or bad" (2 Cor 5:10) the human good won't be rewarded but burned, while the divine good will be rewarded.

12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Orange words refer to the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10.
Purple words refer to the divine good produced in the power of the Holy Spirit, and rewarded.
Red words refer to the good produced in the power of the flesh, and will result in LOSS of reward, but not loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You responded to a post of mine that said one can believe yet not have faith.

I did not say one can have faith and not believe

What did you say?

either learn to read what people said. Or go back and proofread. YOu have not proven me wrong

People (many) can believe and not have faith.

Well, there you SAID IT AGAIN! So QUIT accusing me of telling you the truth. Or proving you to be a liar.

Your second sentence: I did not say one can have faith and not believe

Your sixth sentence: People (many) can believe and not have faith.

Maybe YOU should proofread your posts before hitting the button. All you did was reverse the order. So what?

If these 2 contradictory sentences don't say the same thing, you NEED to explain how they aren't contradictory.

 

[ZNP]

Did you not say you were teaching a works based salvation? Or did I misunderstand you. I just want to clarify to make sure I am not misrepresenting you

Yes, you misunderstood me.

 

[ZNP]

Another great question!

The Bible uses "fire" as a metaphor for evaluation, and not just for final condemnation of the unsaved.

The words "gold, silver, jewels" refers to divine good produced in the power of the Holy Spirit, while "wood, hay straw" refers to human good, which stinks to God (Jer 64:6).

So, when believers will be evaluated on their works, "whether good or bad" (2 Cor 5:10) the human good won't be rewarded but burned, while the divine good will be rewarded.

12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Orange words refer to the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10.
Purple words refer to the divine good produced in the power of the Holy Spirit, and rewarded.
Red words refer to the good produced in the power of the flesh, and will result in LOSS of reward, but not loss of salvation.

Yes, but how do you understand "suffer loss", surely he isn't referring to physical things on earth. If all their works were fleshly and were not storing up anything in heaven what exactly are they "losing". We are told that anything that is stored up in heaven thieves cannot steal, moths can't destroy, so what is it that we can lose as Christians if it isn't treasure that is stored in heaven?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What did you say?


Well, there you SAID IT AGAIN! So QUIT accusing me of telling you the truth. Or proving you to be a liar.

Your second sentence: I did not say one can have faith and not believe

Your sixth sentence: People (many) can believe and not have faith.

Maybe YOU should proofread your posts before hitting the button. All you did was reverse the order. So what?

If these 2 contradictory sentences don't say the same thing, you NEED to explain how they aren't contradictory.

I did not reverse anything

People CAN believe, and yet not have faith.

Licentious people believe, but have no faith

A legalist believes, but does not have faith.

that is what you responded to

You stated I was wrong, a person can not have belief yet not have faith. that is in error.

I never stated a person can have faith and not believe. I am not sure why you think I said this

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, you misunderstood me.

so you think you are not teaching a works based salvation?

 

[Snacks]

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Exactly, that’s what I said. And what’s beautiful is that God’s gifts are irrevocable and He always finds His lost sheep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, but how do you understand "suffer loss", surely he isn't referring to physical things on earth.

Correct. Paul was referring to eternal rewards.

If all their works were fleshly and were not storing up anything in heaven what exactly are they "losing".

Eternal reward.

We are told that anything that is stored up in heaven thieves cannot steal, moths can't destroy, so what is it that we can lose as Christians if it isn't treasure that is stored in heaven?

Loss of reward. Things like "reigning with Him" (2 Tim 2:12), ruling over cities, a parable that Jesus gave, etc.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did not reverse anything

Read my post. I SHOWED your reversal.

People CAN believe, and yet not have faith.

There! You said it again.

Licentious people believe, but have no faith

So, what to licentious people believe.

A legalist believes, but does not have faith.

And what does a legalist believe?

that is what you responded to

I was responding to your false statement about what you said that you then said you didn't say.

You stated I was wrong, a person can not have belief yet not have faith. that is in error.

Correct.

I never stated a person can have faith and not believe. I am not sure why you think I said this

See? You are reversing AGAIN. Don't you proof your posts?

Apparently you are just very confused.

 

[ZNP]

Correct. Paul was referring to eternal rewards.


Eternal reward.


Loss of reward. Things like "reigning with Him" (2 Tim 2:12), ruling over cities, a parable that Jesus gave, etc.

That is part of our inheritance, are you saying they lose their inheritance?

 

[Runningman]

Exactly, that’s what I said. And what’s beautiful is that God’s gifts are irrevocable and He always finds His lost sheep.

True and when do we get the gift of eternal life in hand? Now or later? If we have the gift right now then it is irrevocable. If we don’t have it yet, and none of us have immortal resurrected bodies, then revocation isn’t applicable to what hasn’t been given yet.

Future eternal life:
Luke 18:30
30will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Titus 3:7
7so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is part of our inheritance, are you saying they lose their inheritance?

The Bible speaks of 2 kinds of inheritance. One is based on simply being a child of God. The other is based on earning reward.

Rom 8:17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

Rom 8:17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The first inheritance is guaranteed for children of God.

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The second inheritance is conditioned upon "if indeed...we share in His sufferings". The result is that we share in His glory.

This is parallel to what Paul wrote in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

"if we endure" earns "reigning with him". This is a reward.

"if we deny Him" earns loss of reward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

True and when do we get the gift of eternal life in hand? Now or later? If we have the gift right now then it is irrevocable. If we don’t have it yet, and none of us have immortal resurrected bodies, then revocation isn’t applicable to what hasn’t been given yet.

Jesus was very clear about WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (possesses) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse says that eternal life is possessed WHEN a person becomes a believer.

Future eternal life:
Luke 18:30
30will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Titus 3:7
7so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

When the Bible speaks of eternal life in the future, it is speaking of actually BEING in eternity. iow, when we die, because then, time no longer has any effect on the believer.

 

[ZNP]

Revelation 5:10 -- and made us kings and priests to our God.

If believers can lose the reward of ruling with Jesus then what do they have left?

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

Hard to deny, sure seems like this is what Paul said in 2Timothy that if you are with the believers who are saved "so as through fire" and will suffer loss that you will not reign with Jesus!

 

[ZNP]

The Bible speaks of 2 kinds of inheritance. One is based on simply being a child of God. The other is based on earning reward.

Rom 8:17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

Rom 8:17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The first inheritance is guaranteed for children of God.

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The second inheritance is conditioned upon "if indeed...we share in His sufferings". The result is that we share in His glory.

This is parallel to what Paul wrote in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

"if we endure" earns "reigning with him". This is a reward.

"if we deny Him" earns loss of reward.

Wow, this also says we won't share in Jesus' glory if we do not share in His sufferings (Romans 8:17b)

So just to be clear, some believers will reign with Jesus and share in His glory and other believers won't! And that is what is meant by "once saved always saved"? Talk about reading the fine print!

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was very clear about WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (possesses) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse says that eternal life is possessed WHEN a person becomes a believer.


When the Bible speaks of eternal life in the future, it is speaking of actually BEING in eternity. iow, when we die, because then, time no longer has any effect on the believer.

The verse you provided needs a bit more context because it's about the future resurrection to eternal life. Notice where it says "will not be judged" or "will not come under judgment" because it's referring to the future. That corresponds to Luke 18:30, Matthew 25:46, and Titus 3:7 where a future eternal life is referenced.

John 5:24-29
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.
27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice
29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.