Once saved always saved?

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Dirtman

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2022
1,151
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#41
"Raised Southern Baptist, Dillahunty considered becoming a minister. His in-depth examination of Christian beliefs, instead of bolstering his faith as he had intended, led him to no longer believe in the basic tenets of Christianity and, eventually, all religions".

Two things here. Being a southern Baptist minister does by no means equate to an in depth examination. And looking to rise through the ranks and become a minister for the purpose of bolstering means you really didnt believe to start with.

There has been more than a few famous evangelicals "de constructing their faith recently".

Its all very sad.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#42
FreeGrace2 said:
You just moved the goal posts. Your first question was can a person live a carnal life and have eternal life.

So I'll answer both (but different) questions.

Yes, a person can live a carnal life and have eternal life. But they will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.
What's the diffence..
To "inherit" eternal life means to earn reward in eternity. That is more than just having eternal life, which is a gift and cannot be earned.

Rewards are earned. Every time. Gifts cannot be earned. Any time.

And is Jesus their Lord?
Interesting question. It appears you may not be aware of what Peter told his audience of believers:

1 Pet 3:15 - But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

The bolded words are in the imperative mood, the mood of command. It's a command to obey.

So, being a believer doesn't mean automatically that Jesus is their Lord. While Jesus IS the Lord, when a believer lives carnally, they are living for themselves, and not for the Lord.

So the command to sanctify Jesus as Lord is about spiritual growth, being in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) and being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18).
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#43
Live4Him3 said:
I called Jesus Christ no such thing.

He said nobody can snatch anybody out of his hand, but he did not say that nobody could walk away of their own volition.

Anyhow, if you're teaching "OSAS", then I'll tell YOU plainly that you're a heretic.
Why is he a heretic🤔. What's the biblical reason?
The poster, quoted above, claims eternal security is a heresy. And Jesus taught eternal security in John 10:28.

What did he say that is heretical.
According to L4H teaching eternal security is preaching heresy.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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#44
FreeGrace2 said:
You just moved the goal posts. Your first question was can a person live a carnal life and have eternal life.

So I'll answer both (but different) questions.

Yes, a person can live a carnal life and have eternal life. But they will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11.

To "inherit" eternal life means to earn reward in eternity. That is more than just having eternal life, which is a gift and cannot be earned.

Rewards are earned. Every time. Gifts cannot be earned. Any time.


Interesting question. It appears you may not be aware of what Peter told his audience of believers:

1 Pet 3:15 - But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

The bolded words are in the imperative mood, the mood of command. It's a command to obey.

So, being a believer doesn't mean automatically that Jesus is their Lord. While Jesus IS the Lord, when a believer lives carnally, they are living for themselves, and not for the Lord.

So the command to sanctify Jesus as Lord is about spiritual growth, being in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) and being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18).

Yep, this was big in the 80's carnal Christianity.. Or carnal christians..

Of course we all know it as the basis of the 'lordship' debate.

Christ is Lord full stop. You either submit fully or your lost.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
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#45
Live4Him3 said:
I called Jesus Christ no such thing.

He said nobody can snatch anybody out of his hand, but he did not say that nobody could walk away of their own volition.

Anyhow, if you're teaching "OSAS", then I'll tell YOU plainly that you're a heretic.

The poster, quoted above, claims eternal security is a heresy. And Jesus taught eternal security in John 10:28.


According to L4H teaching eternal security is preaching heresy.

Hi freegrace,

Thanks for your post. I know why he disagrees with the assurance that believers have in Christ. I was basically wanting him to prove it biblically as to why he thinks it is heresy. Which he can't do. But it would interesting to read none the less 👍
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#46
Yep, this was big in the 80's carnal Christianity.. Or carnal christians..

Of course we all know it as the basis of the 'lordship' debate.

Christ is Lord full stop. You either submit fully or your lost.
Do you realize that to "fully submit" requires effort on your part? Are you RCC? They believe that they must "cooperate" with God in their salvation. iow, Jesus does some things, and YOU must do certain things.

Do you believe that? It appears so. Change my mind.

The ONLY thing a human can do in order to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, which was Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him specifically what he MUST DO to be saved.

Belief is not a work. There is no effort in believing. Or, to say another way, how much effort is there in trusting in someone?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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#47
Do you realize that to "fully submit" requires effort on your part? Are you RCC? They believe that they must "cooperate" with God in their salvation. iow, Jesus does some things, and YOU must do certain things.

Do you believe that? It appears so. Change my mind.

The ONLY thing a human can do in order to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, which was Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him specifically what he MUST DO to be saved.

Belief is not a work. There is no effort in believing. Or, to say another way, how much effort is there in trusting in someone?

No I'm not RC. But I fully submit. My life to Christ and put effort into walking with Christ every single day. I'll be honest somedays I fail miserably.. But we have a loving father.

I cooperate with God in my sanctification and so should all believers. But yet even that Co operation is a gift. But thats different from synergistic justification. I think you have it wards.. You want synergystic justification and monergistic sanctification.

Justification is a one time act.. That is believe.. Have faith. Sanctification is an ongoing process that requires us to do good works that have already been prepared for us eph 2:10. Is it not one of your main arguments that's we are elected to serve. How do you serve if you don't submit?

But to be clear works are not meritorious in contrast to the righteousness of faith. But done with a humble and thankful heart. Nor are they the cause of salvation.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,327
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#48
No I'm not RC. But I fully submit. My life to Christ and put effort into walking with Christ every single day. I'll be honest somedays I fail miserably.. But we have a loving father.

I cooperate with God in my sanctification and so should all believers. But yet even that Co operation is a gift. But thats different from synergistic justification. I think you have it wards.. You want synergystic justification and monergistic sanctification.

Justification is a one time act.. That is believe.. Have faith. Sanctification is an ongoing process that requires us to do good works that have already been prepared for us eph 2:10. Is it not one of your main arguments that's we are elected to serve. How do you serve if you don't submit?

But to be clear works are not meritorious in contrast to the righteousness of faith. But done with a humble and thankful heart. Nor are they the cause of salvation.

good and honest take. salvation is not easy believism nor is it maintained by works.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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#49
Not only Dillahunty, but the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham when he set out to be an evangelist, Charles Templeton. He and Billy roomed together during a European crusade in 1947. He was a world class evangelist.

However, he lost his faith and concluded that the Bible wasn't true and God didn't exist, over a terrible misunderstanding of Genesis 1.

So, what does the Bible say about those who lose faith? This is what Jesus said about losing faith.

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

So Jesus acknowledges that believers can believe only "for a while", and when testing/temptations occur, "they fall away" (from their faith).

So this establishes that believers can cease to believe, which refutes the Calvinist claim that true believers will persevere in the faith. Not true, as Jesus noted.

So, what happens when a believer falls away from the faith? There are 2 verses that address this issue.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses describe those who "have not believed". It is those who "will be condemned". iow, once a person HAS believed, they shall never be condemned.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

To be condemned is to "be judged". So once a person believes Jesus says they "will not be judged", which is parallel to the 2 previous verses.

One more verse to consider:

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus said very clearly that those given eternal life "shall never perish". And He gave no exceptions to this.

So, once a person has believed in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for personal sins, that person becomes a permanent child of God, possesses eternal life (John 5:24), has been regenerated (Titus 3:5), is sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13,14). None of these things can be taken away, for any reason.

However, the Bible is also very clear about the consequences for ceasing to believe or leaving the faith. God promises discipline for His children who are rebellious or unfaithful. And the discipline is painful (Heb 12:11), and can include physical death, per 1 Cor 5:5, 11:30, Acts 5, and many other verses.

So, while there is nothing that can result in loss of salvation, every believer must be aware of the warnings about being rebellious or unfaithful to the Lord.

iow, no one will 'get away' with anything. Arminians seem to think that the doctrine of eternal security leads to sinfulness. That may occur when the doctrine of divine discipline isn't taught along side of eternal security.
Why do you suppose the Lord called the ground of their heart…stony or rocky… NOT good ground?

The seed only is truly planted in good ground.

The TRUE believers are good ground… they bring forth a harvest. The other grounds are NOT True Believers.

We need to guard our hearts with all diligence….for out of our hearts flow the issue of LIFE.

HUMILITY!!! HUMILITY!!!!

Do NOT let pride kill the seed of the Word of God that was given to you so that you might live and not die.
 

Aussie52

Active member
Aug 31, 2022
159
150
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#50
It seems to me that we have to look at OSAS through a Biblical lens, not an Experience lens.
That being the case, we must view those that fall away as counterfeit Christians.
Judas would be an example of a counterfeit.
He was one of the Apostles, preached the Kingdom of God around
Israel etc. Yet he was unsaved, a counterfeit.
In this day and age where becoming a Christian comes done to repeating the 'Sinner's Prayer' or
asking Jesus into your heart, is it any wonder that we have so many 'counterfeit Christians'.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,895
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#51
It seems to me that we have to look at OSAS through a Biblical lens, not an Experience lens.
That being the case, we must view those that fall away as counterfeit Christians.
Judas would be an example of a counterfeit.
He was one of the Apostles, preached the Kingdom of God around
Israel etc. Yet he was unsaved, a counterfeit.
In this day and age where becoming a Christian comes done to repeating the 'Sinner's Prayer' or
asking Jesus into your heart, is it any wonder that we have so many 'counterfeit Christians'.
How about we look at OSAS through the lens of God’s LOVE?!!

How about we look at God’s Word through the lens of God’s LOVE?!!

How about we look at God’s Law through the lens of God’s Love?!

How about we totally trash prideful human reasoning and replace it with eyes that filter everything through God’s LOVE?!!

Doesn’t Faith work by Love? Without Love there can be NO faith at work because there is NO love for the Truth.

Without God’s Love at work in us there are NO good works that we are capable of doing, even if we know to do them…we won’t without total love and surrender to God.

EVERYTHING is absolutely NOTHING without God’s Love in us, for us and flowing through us, amen.

With ALL our hearts, repent and seek, desire, run after and chase God’s Love for you personally and for others, amen. :love:(y)
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
898
161
43
#52
This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?
Are we to believe that as soon as we accept Jesus in our lives that our salvation is secure? Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. People are being taught that once you are quote “saved” that you can never fall to the spiritually lost condition. This is not true and totally unbiblical; this teaching is a damnable heresy brought in by man. To teach someone that all they have to do is believe on Christ and you are saved is a doctrine of the devil.
In (1John:1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. According to bible you can’t be living a sinless life, because if you make such a statement, you just lied.
 

TDidymas

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
311
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#53
Thanks for replying. In light of your seeming OSAS response, what do you make of Heb6:4-6, which says - paraphrasing - "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, as they crucifly the Lord afresh and expose Him to an op⁰
Heb. 6:4-6 is NOT describing a born-again Christian, implied by v. 9 - "we think better things of you, things that accompany salvation." So if better things regarding salvation is not in v. 4-6, then v. 4-6 is talking about someone in the group that sees miracles (and might even perform some) but is not actually saved. Such as Judas Iscariot.

But whoever thinks that salvation can be lost will naturally have a problem with 1 Pet. 1:3-5.

The root of the controversy, though, has to do with how one defines "faith." The world generally defines it as mental assent. "I believe..., because I think it reasonable to believe that." Or because of tradition, or because of the culture, or some other reason.

According to Jesus and the apostles, the faith that justifies by God is a kind of faith that is enduring, and one that trusts God past feelings and circumstances. It's a faith that trusts Christ for deliverance from one's sinful ways. It means one must believe that God is at work in one's heart to help in the Christian life.

So then, the "once saved always saved" idea is not only much maligned, it is also much misunderstood, because "faith" is something much misunderstood. Many people unfortunately think that if they FEEL like believing, they believe, and if they don't FEEL like they believe, they don't believe. How is this any different than living according to the flesh (Rom. 8:13)?

The Bible says that if a person understands what wisdom is, and doesn't follow it, that person is a fool. But whoever is a true follower of Christ is no fool.

The bottom line is, Heb. 6:4-6 is a warning to someone who claims to have faith, but falls into apostasy when his claim is tried by "fire." But one with enduring faith is encouraged to continue by 1 Pet. 1:3-5 and other such faith-encouraging statements in scripture.
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
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#54
Heb. 6:4-6 is NOT describing a born-again Christian, implied by v. 9 - "we think better things of you, things that accompany salvation." So if better things regarding salvation is not in v. 4-6, then v. 4-6 is talking about someone in the group that sees miracles (and might even perform some) but is not actually saved. Such as Judas Iscariot.

But whoever thinks that salvation can be lost will naturally have a problem with 1 Pet. 1:3-5.

The root of the controversy, though, has to do with how one defines "faith." The world generally defines it as mental assent. "I believe..., because I think it reasonable to believe that." Or because of tradition, or because of the culture, or some other reason.

According to Jesus and the apostles, the faith that justifies by God is a kind of faith that is enduring, and one that trusts God past feelings and circumstances. It's a faith that trusts Christ for deliverance from one's sinful ways. It means one must believe that God is at work in one's heart to help in the Christian life.

So then, the "once saved always saved" idea is not only much maligned, it is also much misunderstood, because "faith" is something much misunderstood. Many people unfortunately think that if they FEEL like believing, they believe, and if they don't FEEL like they believe, they don't believe. How is this any different than living according to the flesh (Rom. 8:13)?

The Bible says that if a person understands what wisdom is, and doesn't follow it, that person is a fool. But whoever is a true follower of Christ is no fool.

The bottom line is, Heb. 6:4-6 is a warning to someone who claims to have faith, but falls into apostasy when his claim is tried by "fire." But one with enduring faith is encouraged to continue by 1 Pet. 1:3-5 and other such faith-encouraging statements in scripture.

Thanks for replying.
One thing you mentioned was faith. People have different ideas as to what biblical faith is. I've tended to believe that faith is synonymous with belief. I'm disinclined to think that now.
Sorry -got to go now - I'll try to get back later.
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
375
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#55
Thanks, everyone, who responded.
I don't have a Bible with me now and am pushed for time. I'll try to get back to you later.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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New Zealand
#56
It is not impossible for a believer to become the opposite type of person, because of free will.

Any one of us.. could just join a cult.. murder some one... steal something etc.. because we have the ability to choose.

The thing is this is very unlikely because the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts as believers when we go astray to prompt us back into close relationship with Him.

But to say that a believer just won't be unfaithful... is back loading works into salvation.

It's the same as works for salvation .. put in a different way in God only saving those He knows in advance won't fall away.

This isn't biblical!

Eternal life given... means eternal! Jesus ' promises to never leave or forsake a believer can't be broken.

Gotta get off the 'never saved in the first place' line... unless it's obvious the person didn't ever believe.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#57
What does OSAS do with this passage? Just curious.

Matthew 6:14,15
14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

According to Matthew 6:14,15, forgiveness of sins is conditional upon forgiving those who sin against you. Do people who don’t have their sins forgiven for not forgiving someone else go to heaven?

Honestly not trying to argue. Just would love to know how this fits into the scheme of things.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#58
Before around 1500 A.D., no one had heard of OSAS. John Calvin first proposed it. And he said he got his idea of "perseverance of the saints" (the "P" in TULIP) from St. Augustine. He probably did, but he probably misunderstood it.

"Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.

Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." From: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

Augustine is not saying what Calvin thought: not that, once a man is justified, he can never lose grace, otherwise he was never justified in the first place.

Rather, Augustine is saying, after justification, one must pray daily, e.g. the Lord's Prayer, for the Gift of Perseverance. Then, at some time later, if that Gift of Perseverance is given to them by God, they will in fact persevere to the end in holiness and not be lost. That's clear.

Salvation=Justification+Perseverance, not Justification alone. Those who treat justification alone as salvation find difficulty in explaining the OP question.

And so neither of the two options that (1) even though a man becomes an apostate/atheist, he is still saved, or (2) if a man becomes a man an atheist, he was never saved to begin with, is right imo.

Rather, all that can be legitimately concluded/inferred is (1) if someone became an atheist, he may indeed have been truly justified in the beginning; but (2) he never sufficiently prayed, and thus did not receive the Grace of Perseverance in Faith.

That's why in Hebrews 10, and other verses, there are so many exhortations to Persevere, in order to obtain the Promise.

God Bless.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#59
What does OSAS do with this passage? Just curious.

Matthew 6:14,15
14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

According to Matthew 6:14,15, forgiveness of sins is conditional upon forgiving those who sin against you. Do people who don’t have their sins forgiven for not forgiving someone else go to heaven?

Honestly not trying to argue. Just would love to know how this fits into the scheme of things.
Not one Christian in the audience, only Jews. Jewish living in the physical kingdom. This is not doctrine for the body of Christ.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#60
It is not impossible for a believer to become the opposite type of person, because of free will.

Any one of us.. could just join a cult.. murder some one... steal something etc.. because we have the ability to choose.

The thing is this is very unlikely because the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts as believers when we go astray to prompt us back into close relationship with Him.

But to say that a believer just won't be unfaithful... is back loading works into salvation.

It's the same as works for salvation .. put in a different way in God only saving those He knows in advance won't fall away.

This isn't biblical!

Eternal life given... means eternal! Jesus ' promises to never leave or forsake a believer can't be broken.

Gotta get off the 'never saved in the first place' line... unless it's obvious the person didn't ever believe.
Agree, see Demas.