OSAS origins and comparison

[Kroogz]

That makes absolutely not sense. My post was the exact opposite of works. You need to learn how to read

Whatever @rogerg .

Not really saved because?........Works. You calvies are just as bad as the loser believers. All based on WORKS.


Calvies~~not really saved BASED ON WORKS.

Armins /catholics~~lose salvation BASED ON WORKS.

You guys are like 2 peas in a pod.........THINK

 

[Bible_Locket]

Just to make this statement is abandoning Christ..........Put Bible DOCTRINE and your brain to work.

You ARE RELYING ON WORKS for salvation with your above quote.......THINK.

I think you did not read them correctly. Maybe try reading again.

 

[rogerg]

I think you did not read them correctly. Maybe try reading again.

Thanks.

 

[Dave123]

If they have truly been saved, yes. But the real question is: How will someone who has been given a new heart, a new spirit, and a renewed mind actually choose to live? Will a true child of God genuinely desire to 'sin blatantly' as a lifestyle?
There are two kinds of sin we should distinguish between: Turning back to works for salvation: If someone abandons Christ to rely on their own merit, they prove they were never saved to begin with; and Carnal, earthly sin: where a true believer falls into carnal sin, God does not revoke their salvation. Instead, as a loving Father, He chastises His sons so they will repent and cease from it.

Look at King David. Was he saved? Absolutely. Yet he fell into blatant, horrific sins (adultery and murder). God disciplined him severely, but his salvation was never revoked or in question.
A person’s salvation is based entirely upon what Christ did, which is freely imputed to them, and not at all based upon what that person does or fails to do. If salvation depends on our ability to maintain a sinless performance, then Christ died for nothing

I think a better question would be, can a regenerate person become unregenerate? Can a born again believer become un born again?

I try not to use the OT picture for today. I know my understanding and belief of what Scripture teaches with regards to OT believers is not agreed with by the masses these days, but I stand by it.

I don't believe that OT believers were born again, and thus, they were lacking in understanding and much of the benefits that we have in the NT from being born again. They were only freed from the bondage of sin to the extent that the external presence of God allows that (OT John 12:36, John 14:17). It was kind of a generic version of what we have today 'in Christ'. They only had the promise of being 'in Christ'. If you want to see that difference between the OT presence, and NT indwelling, look at the Apostles both before and after the Pentecost indwelling. They went from a lack of faith, doubting, afraid and not understanding, to the opposite of that. That's what the 'placing into' Christ with/by the Holy spirit did. It makes us born again. They didn't have that in the OT. Nicodemus didn't understand because he wasn't born again. David had the Spirit upon Him, but not in him. Peter denied Jesus three times because he wasn't yet born again. The "power" that was given in Acts is from the indwelling. And that indwelling makes us born again also. That's what made Abrahams faith so amazing. He didn't have what we have today.

OT-John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (also see John 14:25-26, 15: 16:7-16).

Paul said it Himself, that we *begin* being conformed to Christlikeness when we receive the indwelling Spirit. And that maturing/perfecting is done by the Spirit, not the flesh. There's nothing for us to claim as merit, as it is all a gift from God.

I liken ourselves and our sin to a garden. We need to constantly weed the sin out of that garden. Sometimes it's old weeds that keep coming back. Sometimes it's new weeds. Sometimes it's old weeds that we didn't even know were there until now.

I like Alistair Begg's analogy. He said on a scale from 1 to 100, with Jesus being a perfect 100 in His incarnation, the rest of us are probably all about a 4 or a 5. We like to think much more highly of ourselves than we should. Alistair said of himself that, in glory, he'd be lucky to be living in a shed in the back yard of the "mansion" of that the guy who sweeps the front steps of the church. Those who are first will be last, etc. Is being poor in spirit a fruit of the Spirit? I think so. It's the opposite of self righteousness, which is from the flesh.

 

[Dave123]

I assume you believe that one's future sins are forgiven before they are committed if one is a believer?

I do not believe that. Can you give a Scripture that clearly says that?

Hebrews 10:10-12 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

Your thoughts on what Paul meant in Romans 6:1.

Romans 6:1"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

 

[Chester]

So if the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from each and every sin, on what basis would God keep us from eternal life?

If the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from each and every sin, at that point in time we have eternal life.

 

[NightTwister]

If the blood of Jesus has cleansed us from each and every sin, at that point in time we have eternal life.

Can eternal life be lost? If so, on what basis? If so, how is it eternal?

 

[Chester]

Can eternal life be lost? If so, on what basis? If so, how is it eternal?

Can eternal life be lost? Interesting question: I wonder if the Word of God gives a clear answer to that question?

 

[Chester]

Hebrews 10:10-12 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

Your thoughts on what Paul meant in Romans 6:1.

Romans 6:1"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

Hebrews 10:10-12: Jesus through the offering of His body made the final and complete sacrifice for sins. This is in direct contrast to the OT system of daily ongoing sacrifices by the priests.
I don't see anything here about future sins that I have not yet committed being forgiven because I have believed in Jesus.

Romans 6:1: When a believer sins (presumably even blatantly and purposefully), the grace of God abounds! PTL! Or I would wind up in hell! But Paul's point in this passage will be to show the believer that this is not what should happen!

 

[rogerg]

I think a better question would be, can a regenerate person become unregenerate? Can a born again believer become un born again?

I believe the answer to your question is that if someone has truly become saved, then no, they cannot become 'unregenerate' or 'unborn again.' To look at it logically: if a regenerate person could become unregenerate, it would mean someone who is currently spiritually alive would have to experience spiritual death, in which case, God would have to actively put them to spiritual death. I believe this is a theological impossibility. God does not undo His own work of new creation, nor does He put His redeemed children to death. I have not found the possibility that this could occur mentioned anywhere in Scripture.
Remember, those who become saved, become so because of and based upon what Jesus did and gave to them as a free gift- from His perfect work and sacrifice was salvation was given to them - it was not based upon a person's actions and so cannot be removed as a result of a person's actions.

 

[NightTwister]

Can eternal life be lost? Interesting question: I wonder if the Word of God gives a clear answer to that question?

It does.

They went out from us, but they really were not part of us. If they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Instead they all showed that they were not part of us. - 1 John 2:19

 

[Kroogz]

I think you did not read them correctly. Maybe try reading again.

Oh, I read them correctly. I used the same "thinking" for years. Then I was taught Bible doctrine.

@rogerg and seemingly you, are reading scriptures with a natural mind.......That is why you can't see my point.

NONE of us will ever prove our salvation to a man through our works/deeds/sinning less/being nice/going to church/giving........

And the calvies use it all to determine if someone is really saved.

Not really saved~~calvies.

lose salvation~~armies.

All based upon subjective works/deeds/sinning less/being nice/going to church/giving.......

 

[Chester]

It does.

They went out from us, but they really were not part of us. If they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Instead they all showed that they were not part of us. - 1 John 2:19

Eternal life is not mentioned in that verse . . .???????? One can make assumptions from a verse like this and then formulate a doctrine from the assumptions. In reality, usually the doctrine is already formulated, and then someone pulls in a verse to prove it.
I don't do that. Others may but I don't.

Good Bye. God bless you in your journey for truth.

 

[Bible_Locket]

Eternal life is not mentioned in that verse . . .???????? One can make assumptions from a verse like this and then formulate a doctrine from the assumptions. In reality, usually the doctrine is already formulated, and then someone pulls in a verse to prove it.
I don't do that. Others may but I don't.

Good Bye. God bless you in your journey for truth.

You're correct there.

1John 2:24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Twister have eyes but they do not see.

 

[rogerg]

I don't see anything here about future sins that I have not yet committed being forgiven because I have believed in Jesus.

If you don't mind me replying, consider the timeline of the cross: When Jesus died 2,000 years ago, all of your sins were future sins.
If Christ only forgave past sins up to the moment of our salvation, then whenever we commit a new sin, we would fall out of grace. But Scripture says Christ offered one sacrifice for sins for all time
The reason future sins do not condemn a believer is because Christ legally took us out from under the law’s curse. Because the law no longer holds legal jurisdiction to condemn those married to Christ, sin’s power to sentence us to spiritual death is gone. Forgiveness of sin is all by Jesus Christ the Savior, and nothing by man.

As Scripture states:

[Heb 1:3 KJV] 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[Heb 10:12 KJV] 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[Rom 7:4 KJV] 'Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.'
[1Co 15:56-57 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Kroogz]

Oh, I read them correctly. I used the same "thinking" for years. Then I was taught Bible doctrine.

@rogerg and seemingly you, are reading scriptures with a natural mind.......That is why you can't see my point.

NONE of us will ever prove our salvation to a man through our works/deeds/sinning less/being nice/going to church/giving........

And the calvies use it all to determine if someone is really saved.

Not really saved~~calvies.

lose salvation~~armies.

All based upon subjective works/deeds/sinning less/being nice/going to church/giving.......

Salvation is John 3:16, Acts 16:31 @rogerg .

Many believers , if not most, will never figure out walking in the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit........And your "theology" PROVES it.

Believers are saved the moment they believe.......Most get stuck in a religion/theory like YOU.

Reformed theory/calvie theory is DEAD works..........But you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved. Just an infant, kicking against the goads. 100 years old or 10 years old.......An infant in Bible doctrine.

 

[Bible_Locket]

I'm reposting this because I proofread this,previewed, before posting yesterday.

And now, the words, And as well as, indwelt, is misspelled to a ridiculous level.

I'm not going to copy every post I make before posting so to prove typos that later appear are generated by something else.
__________________________
Of course not.

However,opponents of Eternal Salvation couch their argument in that point. I.E eternal irrevocable Salvation means you can sin with impunity with no worry of Hell.

This is an argument that can only be made by unbelievers.

And those who have not read Scripture.

Granted,as God tells us, the natural man cannot understand the things of God. Because those are spiritually discerned.

And that very well can explain the failed aforementioned sin with immpunity argument.
1 John 3
4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.5You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.6No one who
abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.


However,that argument,besides being an outright slander of God's words,if left uncorrected,can give others a bad impression of the faith itself.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Pv
Which can't be dismissed as a possible reason its defenders keep the false teachings alive.

Salvation in Christ is everything Jesus says it is.

1 Corinthians 2
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The free irrevocable gift of faith and Salvation bestowed by God. Not of ourselves,so that none may boast.


The point being, Eternal Irrevocable Salvation, eternally sealed by the Holy Spirit, is God's truth.
And those who are in that grace gift do not make a habit of Sinning.

We are indwelt by Holy Spirit. What blasphemy is this that says as such,we now feel confident we can Sin in the flesh because we're always gonna be Saved?

Trust God.
Take God at his word.
Not his enemies .
Who dare tell him, he didn't die to secure our eternal seal and irrevocable Salvation for those whom he calls.
So that we then now we cannot make a habit of Sinning.
Because we know him.

And he knows us! By name.

 

[Dave123]

Hebrews 10:10-12: Jesus through the offering of His body made the final and complete sacrifice for sins. This is in direct contrast to the OT system of daily ongoing sacrifices by the priests.
I don't see anything here about future sins that I have not yet committed being forgiven because I have believed in Jesus.

Your answer is right there, even in your own words.

Romans 6:1: When a believer sins (presumably even blatantly and purposefully), the grace of God abounds! PTL! Or I would wind up in hell! But Paul's point in this passage will be to show the believer that this is not what should happen!

Exactly! But if it did....

 

[Dave123]

I believe the answer to your question is that if someone has truly become saved, then no, they cannot become 'unregenerate' or 'unborn again.' To look at it logically: if a regenerate person could become unregenerate, it would mean someone who is currently spiritually alive would have to experience spiritual death, in which case, God would have to actively put them to spiritual death. I believe this is a theological impossibility. God does not undo His own work of new creation, nor does He put His redeemed children to death. I have not found the possibility that this could occur mentioned anywhere in Scripture.

Agreed, but...this will manifest itself so that we can see it and know.

Remember, those who become saved, become so because of and based upon what Jesus did and gave to them as a free gift- from His perfect work and sacrifice was salvation was given to them - it was not based upon a person's actions and so cannot be removed as a result of a person's actions.

But the truth of their spiritual state can be evidenced by their actions. The good tree Who bears good fruit is the Holy Spirit. An unsaved person cannot bear good fruit. The bad tree is our flesh. If you only bear bad fruit, that is an evidence that there is no life. If you mostly bear bad fruit, that may be an evidence that the good fruit (from our perspective) may not really be good at all. If a person is living like the devil, that's an evidence that they probably were never saved, not an evidence that they lost their salvation.

From the two extremes, antinomianism and Catholicism, there is the same missing part of the equation, that is 'evidence' of a genuine faith. This is what James focused on. (James 2:19, 2:26)

 

[rogerg]

But the truth of their spiritual state can be evidenced by their actions. The good tree Who bears good fruit is the Holy Spirit. An unsaved person cannot bear good fruit. The bad tree is our flesh. If you only bear bad fruit, that is an evidence that there is no life. If you mostly bear bad fruit, that may be an evidence that the good fruit (from our perspective) may not really be good at all. If a person is living like the devil, that's an evidence that they probably were never saved, not an evidence that they lost their salvation.

From the two extremes, antinomianism and Catholicism, there is the same missing part of the equation, that is 'evidence' of a genuine faith. This is what James focused on. (James 2:19, 2:26)

I agree with your central point that salvation cannot be lost. However, I look at the definition of 'bad fruit' a bit differently.
If we define bad fruit strictly as moral failure or carnal sin, we run into the problem of King David—who committed adultery and murder yet remained a regenerate man under God's heavy chastisement (Heb 12:6). Those saved can fall into the flesh for a while, but God will not leave them there. Instead, Scripture often describes the ultimate 'bad fruit' as following and preaching a false gospel of works instead of grace. Conversely, the reverse is also true: just because someone exhibits outward human morality or 'good works' does not mean they are saved if they are trusting in those works for their salvation. Truly "good fruit", I believe, is found in totally relying on the finished work of Jesus Christ as Savior, along with the preaching of such.

The book of James introduces a lot of complex theological issues regarding faith, so for the sake of keeping this thread focused on the main topic, I'll bypass delving into James 2 for now