Paul saw the ten commandments as part of the "ministry of death."
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I fully understand mercy, as I stated in a prior post I have sinned and need mercy from YHWH.
It is a mercy I don't deserve when I look at YHWH and Yahshua, what they taught, how they behave and what they want from me, I know I fall short, I know I need unmerited mercy. At the same time that does not mean I don;t want to behave in a manner He approves of. Just the oppisite, because I am offered unmerited mercy, I want to in turn live my life for YHWH.
These passages are perfect explanations of what I beleive to be true.
1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”
and I do not want to insult YHWH.
Hebrews 10:26-31, “For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins, but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour? For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people.” It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.”
My question to you remains, can you answer it?
It is a mercy I don't deserve when I look at YHWH and Yahshua, what they taught, how they behave and what they want from me, I know I fall short, I know I need unmerited mercy. At the same time that does not mean I don;t want to behave in a manner He approves of. Just the oppisite, because I am offered unmerited mercy, I want to in turn live my life for YHWH.
These passages are perfect explanations of what I beleive to be true.
1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”
and I do not want to insult YHWH.
Hebrews 10:26-31, “For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins, but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour? For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people.” It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.”
My question to you remains, can you answer it?
-
1
- Show all
My use of a word saying a greek word did not mean destroy but rather transfer you reply with this and im the bad guy, with a demon? nonsense and rather sick.
because you said this:
That is not "poking fun" it is slander. You are being a bully and acting like a victim.
Quoting what Yahshua says in not a false gospel, standing on Scripture is not a false gospel.
Everyone that disagress with me almost only quotes Paul, the only writer that we are warned not to take his writings to be lawless.
2 Peter 3:15-17, “15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. “
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”
John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."
John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."
I include Hebrew and Greek words because the text was originall written in Hebrew and Greek, therefore it helps to know and understand the original language, especially in places where the translation does not properly convey the original words. Such as "telos", telos does not mean end as in "the end of faith" it is "the goal of faith"
All these words are Hebrew and apper in ever english translation I have ever seen, do you freak out when you read them? Or are you just picking on me?
amen, Passover, Sabbath, Gehenna, raka, abba and halleluyah (halleluiah)
because you said this:
That is not "poking fun" it is slander. You are being a bully and acting like a victim.
Quoting what Yahshua says in not a false gospel, standing on Scripture is not a false gospel.
Everyone that disagress with me almost only quotes Paul, the only writer that we are warned not to take his writings to be lawless.
2 Peter 3:15-17, “15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. “
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”
John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Comforter – the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you."
John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."
I include Hebrew and Greek words because the text was originall written in Hebrew and Greek, therefore it helps to know and understand the original language, especially in places where the translation does not properly convey the original words. Such as "telos", telos does not mean end as in "the end of faith" it is "the goal of faith"
All these words are Hebrew and apper in ever english translation I have ever seen, do you freak out when you read them? Or are you just picking on me?
amen, Passover, Sabbath, Gehenna, raka, abba and halleluyah (halleluiah)
that’s a really good precise way to say it
ibe often thought that Jesus says things like this for a reason
“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11:27-
“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
…And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
….Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:12-13, 23-28, 31-32, 42-43,
But that’s just my wacky theory
ibe often thought that Jesus says things like this for a reason
“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11:27-
“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
…And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
….Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:12-13, 23-28, 31-32, 42-43,
But that’s just my wacky theory
-
1
- Show all
E
The Law is much more than a guide. The Law is about and for the Son and was His path to life and being raised from the dead after giving His life to save us, in obedience to the Law and His Father. The Feasts and Sacrifices and testimonies and precepts and statutes and judgments are about Him. The Law is awesome and He loves it, as He says in Psalm 119.
The Law does not save us because we are sinners, but the promise of life in the Law to the Son from the Father, did save the Son from the death He suffered to save us, in obedience to the Law. Therefore, His obedience to the Law saves us.
The Law does not save us because we are sinners, but the promise of life in the Law to the Son from the Father, did save the Son from the death He suffered to save us, in obedience to the Law. Therefore, His obedience to the Law saves us.
The greatness of the glory of the old covenant is described in such a way that the glory of the new covenant appears more striking in contrast. Paul was addressing another charge against him. His critics apparently claimed he despised or at least neglected the Law in his preaching. Yet how could he? The messages of both Law and grace came from God therefore both are good. The brilliance in the teachings of Moses dims in the presence of the truths of the gospel like the light of the moon dims with the sun rises.
Backing up Greek word kaines in verse 6 is used to describe the new covenant everywhere in the NT except Heb 12:24 where its neos. This latter word refers to "what is new and distinctive". Now Kainos suggests a difference in nature its the difference Paul sought to emphasize. In the NT the Law is represented in Moses Jesus words in Luke 16 "they have Moses....." also Luke 24 "and beginning at Moses". Moses was called the minister of the external covenant that produced death because of the condemnation under which offenders were placed. Now Paul referred back to the giving of the Law on Sinai. The accompanying circumstances then were so glorious that when Moses came down from the MTN his face reflected the very glory of God. The Israelites could not look intently at Moses face.
Not sure about this Paul and ten commandments
Backing up Greek word kaines in verse 6 is used to describe the new covenant everywhere in the NT except Heb 12:24 where its neos. This latter word refers to "what is new and distinctive". Now Kainos suggests a difference in nature its the difference Paul sought to emphasize. In the NT the Law is represented in Moses Jesus words in Luke 16 "they have Moses....." also Luke 24 "and beginning at Moses". Moses was called the minister of the external covenant that produced death because of the condemnation under which offenders were placed. Now Paul referred back to the giving of the Law on Sinai. The accompanying circumstances then were so glorious that when Moses came down from the MTN his face reflected the very glory of God. The Israelites could not look intently at Moses face.
Not sure about this Paul and ten commandments
E
The Law may be a ministry of death to us since we are sinners, but it was a path of life to the Son because of His obedience. He asked for life 16 times in Psalm 119 because of His obedience and the promise of life in the Law to Him from His Father Who He was praying to in Psalm 119. We are saved by the Son's obedience to the Law and His Father. We are saved by Him.
I agree with everything Yahshua/Jesus says.
you quoted this passage:
So if I post some things He said about obedience can you tell me what you think about them?
ESV
Revelation 14:12-13, "Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow with them.
Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
you quoted this passage:
So if I post some things He said about obedience can you tell me what you think about them?
ESV
Revelation 14:12-13, "Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow with them.
Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
I have to respectfully disagree but appreciate the nature and respectful response
I’ll just conclude with a few sections of an apostle writing about it to the church
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
Galatians 3:10-12 KJV
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”
Galatians 3:19, 23 KJV
im not sure of you will agree with him but Paul’s saying alot there
The law is ordained of angels , it was made to last until Jesus came forth preaching the gospel , itnis not of faith nd cannot justify anyone . It cirses anyone who puts themselves under it the first time they sin in any way then they need Jesus ……
the law is not Christian’s guide it’s a subversion to their souls it’s for these folks instead it was a guide for these folks in the ot
“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV
again Paul’s said a lot there again the law is speaking to people that are in here rly sinful they do not have the remission and rebirth of Gods spirit
aid they had Jesus spirit on them ……the law wouldn’t have said what it said to them it would have been the gospel they heard …..
I’ll just conclude with a few sections of an apostle writing about it to the church
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
Galatians 3:10-12 KJV
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”
Galatians 3:19, 23 KJV
im not sure of you will agree with him but Paul’s saying alot there
The law is ordained of angels , it was made to last until Jesus came forth preaching the gospel , itnis not of faith nd cannot justify anyone . It cirses anyone who puts themselves under it the first time they sin in any way then they need Jesus ……
the law is not Christian’s guide it’s a subversion to their souls it’s for these folks instead it was a guide for these folks in the ot
“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV
again Paul’s said a lot there again the law is speaking to people that are in here rly sinful they do not have the remission and rebirth of Gods spirit
aid they had Jesus spirit on them ……the law wouldn’t have said what it said to them it would have been the gospel they heard …..
You worded that well, an without Yahshua obedience would would not have a chance at unmerited mercy.
Since we have such a great mercy why would we not want to obey?
Also Yahshua/Jesus says this:
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
Since we have such a great mercy why would we not want to obey?
Also Yahshua/Jesus says this:
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
That is not what that person said
But Yahsua/Jesus was only about to be the spottless Lamb of the true Passover because His perfect obedience.
1 Peter 1:17-21, "And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear, knowing that you were redeemed from your futile behaviour inherited from your fathers, not with what is corruptible, silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but manifested in these last times for your sakes, who through Him believe in Elohim who raised Him from the dead and gave Him esteem, so that your belief and expectation are in Elohim.
But Yahsua/Jesus was only about to be the spottless Lamb of the true Passover because His perfect obedience.
1 Peter 1:17-21, "And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear, knowing that you were redeemed from your futile behaviour inherited from your fathers, not with what is corruptible, silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but manifested in these last times for your sakes, who through Him believe in Elohim who raised Him from the dead and gave Him esteem, so that your belief and expectation are in Elohim.
E
No question about it. In order to keep the highest commandments in the Law, to love His Father above all and to love His neighbor as Himself, He had to offer His life as a Sacrifice for our sins to save us, in obedience to the Law and His Father.
For YAH so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
For YAH so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life.
E
He was raised by His Father because of His obedience according to the promise of Life in the Law to the Man Who accomplished the Law. It is a specific promise to the Son that He would live even though He died to save us, in obedience to the law.
Leviticus 18:4-5
You(the Son) shall do My(the Father) judgments, and keep Mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH Your Elohim.
You shall therefore keep My statutes, and My judgments: which if a Man(the Son) do, He shall live by them: I am YHVH.
The Man that fully obeyed the Law is the Son. He had to give His life to save us in obedience to the law and was promised that He would live if He did. The Son prayed for this promise while praising the Law and His Father all through Psalm 119 asking for life according to the promise and His obedience. This has been explained over and over but nearly no one gets it even now.
Leviticus 18:4-5
You(the Son) shall do My(the Father) judgments, and keep Mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH Your Elohim.
You shall therefore keep My statutes, and My judgments: which if a Man(the Son) do, He shall live by them: I am YHVH.
The Man that fully obeyed the Law is the Son. He had to give His life to save us in obedience to the law and was promised that He would live if He did. The Son prayed for this promise while praising the Law and His Father all through Psalm 119 asking for life according to the promise and His obedience. This has been explained over and over but nearly no one gets it even now.
I deliberately didn't answer your question. It's not the right question to ask.
I mention grace. You answer with mercy. Mercy is not receiving what we deserve. And, to be sure, we need mercy. Grace on the other hand, is receiving what we do not deserve. This is the operating principle in a real and vital relationship with God.
As the thread suggests, the law has a ministry of death. The law points out our offense and guilt. If the penalty of the law is executed, we all die.
The purpose of the cross was to assuage the offense and guilt that God would not have to bring death, but could offer, in its place, life. That is, He could withhold what we deserve and grant us what we do not deserve.
This is what it means to pass from death to life. It is also what is meant that therefore there is no condemnation in Christ.
Those who understand this will never want to relate to God on the basis of the law.
That doesn't mean we don't want to be obedient; for indeed we do. And we grieve over our sin.
Now how to live in obedience is a whole different matter. But until one understands grace and relates to God by such, the place of the law in the believer's life will be misunderstood.
I mention grace. You answer with mercy. Mercy is not receiving what we deserve. And, to be sure, we need mercy. Grace on the other hand, is receiving what we do not deserve. This is the operating principle in a real and vital relationship with God.
As the thread suggests, the law has a ministry of death. The law points out our offense and guilt. If the penalty of the law is executed, we all die.
The purpose of the cross was to assuage the offense and guilt that God would not have to bring death, but could offer, in its place, life. That is, He could withhold what we deserve and grant us what we do not deserve.
This is what it means to pass from death to life. It is also what is meant that therefore there is no condemnation in Christ.
Those who understand this will never want to relate to God on the basis of the law.
That doesn't mean we don't want to be obedient; for indeed we do. And we grieve over our sin.
Now how to live in obedience is a whole different matter. But until one understands grace and relates to God by such, the place of the law in the believer's life will be misunderstood.