People think you have to keep grace on a leash

NorrinRadd · Apr 5, 2015

My favorite pastor gave me some incredible notes I took. I'll just share them as I wrote them down.

People believe that we have to keep grace on a leash or we'll get the idea that we can sin all we want thus turning us into serial killers lol.

When in fact obedience of the heart cannot occur without God's grace.

Some see obedience as the end game when it is not.

Grace extends to everyone, even those Christian Chatters that annoy us to no end.....we tend to separate those chatters from ourselves, looking at them as "unclean" while we are in the "clean" camp. Our default setting as humans and Christ followers is to enjoy looking down on others in their ignorance and disobedience so that we feel informed and obedient before God. This brings us validation when in reality we have all the validation we will ever get through Jesus Christ.

There is no "us" and "them" in ChristianChat. It is us and Him (The Lord Jesus Christ).

We tend to keep accounts and book keeping, measuring others according to our standards when in fact we don't even measure up before the law.

God has permanently sent the spiritual accounting department off with pensions never to open that office again because of His grace through His Son regarding His children.

So for us to keep tallying accounts of those who don't measure up in our minds is a heavy burden that need not weigh us down. We've been set free from all such activity.

blue_ladybug · Apr 5, 2015

you only need to keep grace on a leash if it's a dog..lol..

Jason0047 · Apr 5, 2015

So you can still be saved and have lustful thoughts towards women? You can still be saved and hate your brother? You can still be saved if you got bombed at a college party? Sorry, not buying it. Grace does not give a person a free pass to do evil in God's name.

DesiredHaven · Apr 5, 2015

In Titus it says, the grace of God which bringeth salvation has appeared to all men

Titus 2: 12 Teaching us that,
denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly,
in this present world;

So the grace of God teaches us to deny these lusts.

Which makes sense in that James points out to us
that when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin... (in James 1:15)

Cutting that there to bring in what Paul said (in light of above)

This I say then,
Walk in the Spirit,
and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh (Gal 5: 16)

We have no obligation to live after the flesh (and the lusts thereof)

Paul said,

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,ye shall live.

And in the same place where it speaks of sin not having dominion over us is because we are under this grace. And this grace teaches us to deny these lusts (Titus 2:12) before lust conceives and bring forth sin (as James 1:15) points out.

Which place also speaks of their obedience to that form of doctrine this way,

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Which is according to the grace which comes by Christ Jesus (which is also effectual) given that under that same grace (that come by him) sin itself shall not have any dominion over us (Romans 6:14) under it.

Why leash that?

forsha · Apr 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man. Read Romans 1 to see how bad a born again person can get.

Blain · Apr 5, 2015

I swear if this becomes another grace vs the law or grace vs never sinning I am going to go nuts. I am grateful for God's grace because even though I try to be obedient when I slip up he forgives and I can keep moving forward. If anyone thinks they can sin as they please because of grace they are very confused

crossnote · Apr 5, 2015

NorrinRadd said:

My favorite pastor gave me some incredible notes I took. I'll just share them as I wrote them down.

People believe that we have to keep grace on a leash or we'll get the idea that we can sin all we want thus turning us into serial killers lol.

When in fact obedience of the heart cannot occur without God's grace.

Some see obedience as the end game when it is not.

Grace extends to everyone, even those Christian Chatters that annoy us to no end.....we tend to separate those chatters from ourselves, looking at them as "unclean" while we are in the "clean" camp. Our default setting as humans and Christ followers is to enjoy looking down on others in their ignorance and disobedience so that we feel informed and obedient before God. This brings us validation when in reality we have all the validation we will ever get through Jesus Christ.

There is no "us" and "them" in ChristianChat. It is us and Him (The Lord Jesus Christ).

We tend to keep accounts and book keeping, measuring others according to our standards when in fact we don't even measure up before the law.

God has permanently sent the spiritual accounting department off with pensions never to open that office again because of His grace through His Son regarding His children.

So for us to keep tallying accounts of those who don't measure up in our minds is a heavy burden that need not weigh us down. We've been set free from all such activity.

Ya got a right on Pastor.

Jason0047 · Apr 5, 2015

forsha said:

So are you saying a person can do the evils I mentioned above and still be saved? Do you honestly think that is the grace of God? If you do, you are sadly mistaken.

I mean if that is what you mean, then there is no point in serving God. If one thinks God covers their little pet sins that they enjoy, they should leave God out of it.

Marian29 · Apr 5, 2015

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Mathew 7:3

Blain · Apr 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Find me one person who never sins- like ever not even once

seed_time_harvest · Apr 5, 2015

Grace will cause a person to want to do right.We love GOD because he first loved us.People will respond positively to love.Love never fails.

crossnote · Apr 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

How do you raise such questions when the OP never hinted in that direction?
Here is an excerpt...

"People believe that we have to keep grace on a leash or we'll get the idea that we can sin all we want thus turning us into serial killers lol.
When in fact obedience of the heart cannot occur without God's grace. "

yaright · Apr 5, 2015

DesiredHaven said:

Your question, "Why leash that" draws focus to our sin nature as being in direct conflict with Grace. To leash anything is to imply temporary ownership and control. The way you have brought this forward is a telling witness of our nature to do according to the things which seem right to us. What Jesus and disciples have taught is counter intuitive to the things which seem right. I was angry with God and prayed, Did You actually make us in a way that would cause us to fail? How is this possible?" Then He led me to the sneaky deception Satan had done. When I saw it, I just shook my head in the realization that no matter what I did that was good, could not and cannot escape the whole witness of my life against me. Let Grace be in the hand of the sinless gift of the Spirit who teaches and redirects us when our heart begins to wander. Thank you for the question, "Why leash that?"

DesiredHaven · Apr 5, 2015

yaright said:

It really wasnt a question I was looking for an answer to, but put forth in the sense of why leash the kind of grace that does not let sin have dominion over us?

Meaning its pretty amazing in that effectual.

Or in otherwords, why leash that effectual?

Thank you for your thoughts on the matter

slave · Apr 5, 2015

For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:10 But the question is what is good?

First let's look at the foundation: 1 Cor. 15:58. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. Thus, We are unable to have grace to give away if we first don't solve our death sentence thru Christ.

Romans 8:1-2. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death.

And now lets get to the freeing of grace in the next step...

Gal. 5:13. For you were called to freedom, Brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but thru love SERVE ONE ANOTHER.

Based on Luke 14:10--

Even in the common actions therefore of life, Christ marks what we do, not only in our religious assemblies, but at our tables.

We see in many cases, that a man's pride will bring him low, and before honor -is humility. Our Savior here teaches , that works of Charity are better than works of show. But our Lord did not mean that a proud and unbelieving liberal giver should be rewarded, but that his precept of doing good to the poor and afflicted should be observed from love to him.

So we are then free to be Ambassadors of Christ in the freedom of Reconciliation. The New Testament word "Grace" comes from the root word "Charis"- which means "The provision of Salvation".

So we are free to submit to one another...free to be operate Gods will in the nature of our love to those in front of us. To show... the provisions of Salavation... And the investment in people are His decrees.....let go of the leash; submit, serve, love, give freely of money to gain favor with people, be slow to anger, and go doing this with the Lord's authority, as he marks your ways in heaven. God Bless.

Jason0047 · Apr 5, 2015

Marian29 said:

You have do realize I am judging a doctrine (or belief) and not a person? Nowhere was I judging a specific individual. Now, if folks here happen to hold to the belief of a sin and still be saved doctrine then it is not wrong for me to point that fact out to them. For doing evil is wrong. It's Morality 101. Paul said in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3 that we used to be sinners (i.e. past tense). We are not that way anymore. Yes, new believers are not perfect overnight. But they are supposed to repent of their sins and to forsake them.

So this is an issue of the belief known as OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

In fact, if we were to go down the OSAS Check List of commonly held OSAS beliefs, we can easily see that such a doctrine leads to immorality and not holiness.

OSAS's Commonly Held Dark Beliefs:

#1. Future Sins are Forgiven.
#2. Sin only leads to Physical Death and Not Spiritual Death.
#3. You can be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved.
#4. Not Confessing one Serious Sin before you die will not Send You to Hell.
#5. Once a Son Always a Son or You Cannot be Unborn.
#6. Sin Cannot break the seal of the Spirit.
#7. We are sinners and nobody can be perfect (and nor can they stop sinning ever).

#1. Future Sins Forgiven.
When you tell someone their future sin is forgiven them and you forget to tell them about holiness, you essentially are telling them that they have a license to sin. For if there is no consequence, then people are not going to have any incentive to do what is right. For example: If a law was passed in your state that could allow you to go over the posted speed limit signs on the high way (at any speed you like), then what do you think a lot of people are going to do? More people are going to speed because they know there is no consequences of being pulled over and getting potentially fined. However, if there was a law that said you could pay up to 7,000 dollars for going 10 over the speed limit then more people would start to slow down. It is only natural because now the consequences are more severe. In other words, when you tell people their future sin is forgiven them, then they will not take sin as seriously and think they can get away with it.

#2. Sin is only leads to Physical Death.
In this false belief one is actually rewarded faster in going to Heaven by doing that which is evil (Which is just sick).

#3. You Can be out of Fellowship with God and Still be Saved.
The Bible teaches that eternal life is an exclusive property of the Son. For Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16); And he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Suggesting that you can be out of fellowship with God implies that one can get away with sin and still be saved (Whatever amount of period of time that might be).

#4. Not Confessing One Serious Sin Before you Die will not send you to Hell.
There are actually OSAS proponents out there today who told another believer who was thinking about suicide that they would not go to Hell if they committed suicide. Granted, they said do not commit suicide, but they were essentially saying that they could kill themselves and be with Jesus. This is just evil and wrong on so many levels I do not even no where to begin. The moral issue alone should tell someone it is wrong. For was Jim Jones doing a good thing when he got his people to commit suicide? Do you think those people are saved? Anyways, this belief encourages suicide because there is no real spiritual or eternal consequence in committing suicide (According to many popular OSAS beliefs).

#5. Once a Son, Always a Son.
This suggests that it doesn't matter how bad a family member might get, they are still a part of the family. But this doesn't make sense because if they killed one of their own family members they would be placed into jail and possibly executed and be dead; Hence, they could no longer function as an active member of that family anymore. Also, many in the OSAS camp will say you can't be unborn, too. But this doesn't make any sense to say because people in real life are born into this world and then die. So the proper analogy is that one can die. This makes sense because the Bible says "death" is the wages of sin. So yes, you may be born as a son, but if they die, they cannot function in that family anymore by playing ball with them and or eating with them, etc.

#6. Sin cannot break the Seal of the Spirit.
The Assumption here is that the Seal is unbreakable. Nowhere does the verse ever say that. Seals in the Bible have been broken open like in the book of Revelation. Besides, Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord left him. David cried out to God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. If David believed that the Spirit could not be taken from him, he would have never said what he did in Psalm 51.

#7. We are Sinners and Nobody will ever be Perfect (or stop sinning).
Here we see the holiness doctrine being thrown right out the window. Any hope at teaching righteousness would be a hypocritical act on behalf of the OSAS teacher because he or she cannot be righteous themselves. He or she believes they will never be perfect or that they cannot be righteous. But Jesus said, be ye perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect; And the Scriptures say, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Blain · Apr 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

You have do realize I am judging a doctrine (or belief) and not a person? Nowhere was I judging a specific individual. Now, if folks here happen to hold to the belief of a sin and still be saved doctrine then it is not wrong for me to point that fact out to them. For doing evil is wrong. It's Morality 101. Paul said in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3 that we used to be sinners (i.e. past tense). We are not that way anymore. Yes, new believers are not perfect overnight. But they are supposed to repent of their sins and to forsake them.

So this is an issue of the belief known as OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

In fact, if we were to go down the OSAS Check List of commonly held OSAS beliefs, we can easily see that such a doctrine leads to immorality and not holiness.

OSAS's Commonly Held Dark Beliefs:

#1. Future Sins are Forgiven.
#2. Sin only leads to Physical Death and Not Spiritual Death.
#3. You can be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved.
#4. Not Confessing one Serious Sin before you die will not Send You to Hell.
#5. Once a Son Always a Son or You Cannot be Unborn.
#6. Sin Cannot break the seal of the Spirit.
#7. We are sinners and nobody can be perfect (and nor can they stop sinning ever).

#1. Future Sins Forgiven.
When you tell someone their future sin is forgiven them and you forget to tell them about holiness, you essentially are telling them that they have a license to sin. For if there is no consequence, then people are not going to have any incentive to do what is right. For example: If a law was passed in your state that could allow you to go over the posted speed limit signs on the high way (at any speed you like), then what do you think a lot of people are going to do? More people are going to speed because they know there is no consequences of being pulled over and getting potentially fined. However, if there was a law that said you could pay up to 7,000 dollars for going 10 over the speed limit then more people would start to slow down. It is only natural because now the consequences are more severe. In other words, when you tell people their future sin is forgiven them, then they will not take sin as seriously and think they can get away with it.

#2. Sin is only leads to Physical Death.
In this false belief one is actually rewarded faster in going to Heaven by doing that which is evil (Which is just sick).

#3. You Can be out of Fellowship with God and Still be Saved.
The Bible teaches that eternal life is an exclusive property of the Son. For Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16); And he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Suggesting that you can be out of fellowship with God implies that one can get away with sin and still be saved (Whatever amount of period of time that might be).

#4. Not Confessing One Serious Sin Before you Die will not send you to Hell.
There are actually OSAS proponents out there today who told another believer who was thinking about suicide that they would not go to Hell if they committed suicide. Granted, they said do not commit suicide, but they were essentially saying that they could kill themselves and be with Jesus. This is just evil and wrong on so many levels I do not even no where to begin. The moral issue alone should tell someone it is wrong. For was Jim Jones doing a good thing when he got his people to commit suicide? Do you think those people are saved? Anyways, this belief encourages suicide because there is no real spiritual or eternal consequence in committing suicide (According to many popular OSAS beliefs).

#5. Once a Son, Always a Son.
This suggests that it doesn't matter how bad a family member might get, they are still a part of the family. But this doesn't make sense because if they killed one of their own family members they would be placed into jail and possibly executed and be dead; Hence, they could no longer function as an active member of that family anymore. Also, many in the OSAS camp will say you can't be unborn, too. But this doesn't make any sense to say because people in real life are born into this world and then die. So the proper analogy is that one can die. This makes sense because the Bible says "death" is the wages of sin. So yes, you may be born as a son, but if they die, they cannot function in that family anymore by playing ball with them and or eating with them, etc.

#6. Sin cannot break the Seal of the Spirit.
The Assumption here is that the Seal is unbreakable. Nowhere does the verse ever say that. Seals in the Bible have been broken open like in the book of Revelation. Besides, Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord left him. David cried out to God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. If David believed that the Spirit could not be taken from him, he would have never said what he did in Psalm 51.

#7. We are Sinners and Nobody will ever be Perfect (or stop sinning).
Here we see the holiness doctrine being thrown right out the window. Any hope at teaching righteousness would be a hypocritical act on behalf of the OSAS teacher because he or she cannot be righteous themselves. He or she believes they will never be perfect or that they cannot be righteous. But Jesus said, be ye perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect; And the Scriptures say, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Again please show me one person who never sins at all not even once ty

Jason0047 · Apr 6, 2015

Blain said:

First, you are not God whose eyes are on the righteous and the wicked. Second, it's not the majority of people. Narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Look. It's easy to sin and do evil. Everyone does that already. So to say that that the narrow way is for God to allow His people to sin and to get away with it would be the wide way and not the narrow way. Granted, there is hope if a believer does sin. A believer can confess it and forsake it and ask God to help them to overcome sin in their life.

Jason0047 · Apr 6, 2015

Blain said:

First, you make it sound like born again Christians cannot stop sinning like it would be impossible or something. Who taught you that? Well, it is definitely not from the Bible. For Galatians 5:24 says those that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Second, read Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3. Paul says we used to be sinners but we are not that way anymore. So it's not an issue of what you see around you only. The majority of people are not saved in this world. So you can't go by sight. You have to believe God's Word by faith. Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul replies to that question with, "God forbid." Meaning you can't continue to sin.

Blain · Apr 6, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I never claimed to be God so that comment was kind of pointless. True we are to not live in sin but we are human and we will mess up God knows this as even paul himself struggled with sin. I have met many Christians who claim to be without sin who say they never sin and if you do you are not saved, it astonishes me that a person can be so full of pride and so delusional. Now I am certain you don't think this of yourself or at least I hope you don't

People think you have to keep grace on a leash

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