Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution
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not unless confession along with the bloody sacrifice is understood.
Psalm 32:5
Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"--and you forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah
no confession - no absolution.
(transgression is willful sin btw)....maybe david's confession went unheard.
and Holy Spirit included the Psalm to trick us.
Psalm 32:5
Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"--and you forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah
no confession - no absolution.
(transgression is willful sin btw)....maybe david's confession went unheard.
and Holy Spirit included the Psalm to trick us.
You may convince some Skinski, but not me, I have lived yourGospel. I grew up in a church that preached what you do. A few weeks after Ijoined that church I put my hand up to become a Christian. From then on I knewI had to take God seriously. I tried so hard to live as a Christian should live.I tried to put the flesh to death/not sin. I just wanted to be in a completelypure and Holy State for God, to me if I could not do that I could not be saved. The problem was, the harder I tried, the more Ifailed. I kept trying to climb that mountain but I couldn’t do it. I becameconsumed by lust/concupiscence. The good and Holy laws of God that should haveproved my Christianity, instead stood against me. I became the slave ofmasturbation and had a one track mind. I felt dirty and rotten, I had tried sohard but to no avail.
For all my sin I would not be a hypocrite, so I left the churchand gave up with God, convinced I could not be good enough to be a Christian
Fortunately a few years later I read of Grace, I read Paul’sletters for the first time, and was amazed at what I read, I had never heardhis Gospel plainly preached from the pulpit at the church of my youth. Iactually dared to believe that I, with all my faults could be a Christian, forit did not depend on my personal goodness, but on what Christ had done for meat Calvary.
But what of the masturbation? I knew I could not stop it, Iwas its slave, it consumed me, what could I do?
Well I looked to Christ. For the first time in my life I lookedaway from myself and stood on a righteousness of what Jesus did for me atCalvary. I was saved, not because I had striven and succeeded to live a purelife and put the flesh to death, but because Jesus died for my sins, so I wassaved, DESPITE the obvious sin still inmy life
It wasn’t easy to look to Christ. A voice in my head keptsaying
‘You’re faking it. You can’t be a Christian and do what youare doing’, but with difficulty I ignored that voice and trusted I was saved (despitethe fact I was committing sin Skinski), I stood on faith in Christ.
After four days, the masturbation which had consumed me foryears stopped. And yet, I had had to stand on faith in Christ, while stillsinning. If I had of believed(or should I say continued to believe) your GospelI know the masturbation would not have stopped, so I know the truth of Paul’swords
‘For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under lawbut under grace
Rom6:14
I have lived both Gospels Skinski, yours, and the biblicalGospel of grace, I know which one binds, and which one sets free
Under your Gospel a person must either become crushed andwalk away from the faith, or put on an act to others they know in their heart theycannot live up to
As I say, tragically you may fool some, but never me
U
Then why are preaching what you yourself hasn't attained or experienced ? You speak of Christ as the mould and example for us. Should one that preaches this very thing be any less ? Why did Paul call himself the chief of sinners ? Let's make a deal. When you attain perfection in your flesh, I'll listen to your preaching on the matter. Until then Cobus, it is you who's trying to teach what he doesn't know. I wouldn't call that being a good teacher.
Regeneration in Christ, Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
The Saved in sin, sin everyday crowd knows nothing of this renewing. They have accepted a Provision that provides nothing dynamic or life changing, but only a magic Cover for their sins, but inside they remain vile to the core as before they ‘received’ Jesus. In the passage above being Justified by His Grace has also brought about a ‘washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit’, the body of sin is no longer an issue! The bondage is broken. Grace sets us Free in this Present age! Titus2:11-14
Regeneration (New Birth) is Translated as the following:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death
the renovation of the earth after the deluge
the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught
the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.
Renewing Means: a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better, as in Rom12:1-2 ‘Transformed by the renewing of your Mind!’
If then a person has been Regenerated and Renewed by the Spirit through Repentance and faith Proven by deeds. (2Cor7:10-11) The WORD itself (Logos, Christ incarnate) has WASHED them from the inside out!
‘that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word’ Eph5:26
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Jh15:3
WHY were they CLEAN? Because you PURIFY your Heart BY Obedience to the Truth! 1Pet1:22
This wonderful Regeneration and Renewal takes place AFTER a person has Crucified the flesh with its Passions and Desires (Gal5:24) in the Baptism of Repentance, Rom6:4-7
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.
The END Result of Repentance then is:
Body of Sin Done away with
Old man Crucified
No Longer Slave to sin, But FREED from Sin!
Purity of Heart! 2Cor7:11
It was OBEDIENCE from the Heart that Delivered you to this Marvelous Regeneration & Renewal:
Rom6:16 ‘But God be thanked that though you were Slaves to sin, yet you OBEYED from the heart that form of Doctrine to which you were DELIEVERED!’
NOW ask yourself an honest question: “HOW can you still be the Chief of sinners, Romans Wretch with a Desperately Wicked heart who sins daily in thought, word and deed and have actually experienced this kind of RENEWAL?”
Something is DESPERATELY Wrong with your Supposed Salvation experience if NONE of this is present in your life now. Read the Passages again, Does any of it sound like this is some kind of Gradual process of sin, repent, sin repent for the rest of your life?
In the Rom12:1-2 Passage it says ‘Be TRANSFORMED’ by the Renewing of your Mind. This word is Metamorphoses, Its what happened to Christ in the Transfiguration! (Matt17:2, Mk2) So it would stand to Reason that the Regeneration of the Holy Spirit is also an instantaneous Metamorphosis of the Mind and spirit of man! That means the Bondage to Sin is broken the Mind is Cleansed and Purged of Lust and your entire Disposition is Changed. Isn’t that the Promise made by God through His Promises:
as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 1Pet1:3-4
Partakers of the DIVINE Nature to ESCAPE the Corrupting influence of Lust! How can a person remain in bondage to lust and evil dispositions of the flesh and ‘have escaped’ it at the same time? Does that make sense to you? Is the Word of God merely saying these things to Mock us as we wallow in our sin and claim Salvation in Christ? I Don’t think so….
Those who Desire the Living Waters of Christ will come and Seek out this Regeneration and FIND it! But those who dream on that a person can be ‘of Christ’ and still be addicted to Sin will end up with nothing.
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Rev22:17
THIS is the Living Water that will Wash, Purify and Regenerate your Soul from all that is vile and corrupt. COME! www.standingthegp.org
For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
The Saved in sin, sin everyday crowd knows nothing of this renewing. They have accepted a Provision that provides nothing dynamic or life changing, but only a magic Cover for their sins, but inside they remain vile to the core as before they ‘received’ Jesus. In the passage above being Justified by His Grace has also brought about a ‘washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit’, the body of sin is no longer an issue! The bondage is broken. Grace sets us Free in this Present age! Titus2:11-14
Regeneration (New Birth) is Translated as the following:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death
the renovation of the earth after the deluge
the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught
the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.
Renewing Means: a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better, as in Rom12:1-2 ‘Transformed by the renewing of your Mind!’
If then a person has been Regenerated and Renewed by the Spirit through Repentance and faith Proven by deeds. (2Cor7:10-11) The WORD itself (Logos, Christ incarnate) has WASHED them from the inside out!
‘that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word’ Eph5:26
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Jh15:3
WHY were they CLEAN? Because you PURIFY your Heart BY Obedience to the Truth! 1Pet1:22
This wonderful Regeneration and Renewal takes place AFTER a person has Crucified the flesh with its Passions and Desires (Gal5:24) in the Baptism of Repentance, Rom6:4-7
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.
The END Result of Repentance then is:
Body of Sin Done away with
Old man Crucified
No Longer Slave to sin, But FREED from Sin!
Purity of Heart! 2Cor7:11
It was OBEDIENCE from the Heart that Delivered you to this Marvelous Regeneration & Renewal:
Rom6:16 ‘But God be thanked that though you were Slaves to sin, yet you OBEYED from the heart that form of Doctrine to which you were DELIEVERED!’
NOW ask yourself an honest question: “HOW can you still be the Chief of sinners, Romans Wretch with a Desperately Wicked heart who sins daily in thought, word and deed and have actually experienced this kind of RENEWAL?”
Something is DESPERATELY Wrong with your Supposed Salvation experience if NONE of this is present in your life now. Read the Passages again, Does any of it sound like this is some kind of Gradual process of sin, repent, sin repent for the rest of your life?
In the Rom12:1-2 Passage it says ‘Be TRANSFORMED’ by the Renewing of your Mind. This word is Metamorphoses, Its what happened to Christ in the Transfiguration! (Matt17:2, Mk2) So it would stand to Reason that the Regeneration of the Holy Spirit is also an instantaneous Metamorphosis of the Mind and spirit of man! That means the Bondage to Sin is broken the Mind is Cleansed and Purged of Lust and your entire Disposition is Changed. Isn’t that the Promise made by God through His Promises:
as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 1Pet1:3-4
Partakers of the DIVINE Nature to ESCAPE the Corrupting influence of Lust! How can a person remain in bondage to lust and evil dispositions of the flesh and ‘have escaped’ it at the same time? Does that make sense to you? Is the Word of God merely saying these things to Mock us as we wallow in our sin and claim Salvation in Christ? I Don’t think so….
Those who Desire the Living Waters of Christ will come and Seek out this Regeneration and FIND it! But those who dream on that a person can be ‘of Christ’ and still be addicted to Sin will end up with nothing.
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Rev22:17
THIS is the Living Water that will Wash, Purify and Regenerate your Soul from all that is vile and corrupt. COME! www.standingthegp.org
P
No, Scott.
I did answer you, and more to the point, Sarah did as well, posting the entire chapter in context.
If you don't (or won't) have understanding of it...
*shrugs*
I am truly sorry for you.
But for your sake, I will say again, please read the WHOLE of Acts 3.
See if the Holy Spirit will graciously open the eyes of your understanding to what is there.
Peter is NOT talking to the redeemed, and that's why he is preaching what he is.
Have we ALL need of repentance?
You betcha!
But do we 'fall in and out of salvation'?
No way.
That's an offense to the cross of Christ and His FINISHED work.
I did answer you, and more to the point, Sarah did as well, posting the entire chapter in context.
If you don't (or won't) have understanding of it...
*shrugs*
I am truly sorry for you.
But for your sake, I will say again, please read the WHOLE of Acts 3.
See if the Holy Spirit will graciously open the eyes of your understanding to what is there.
Peter is NOT talking to the redeemed, and that's why he is preaching what he is.
Have we ALL need of repentance?
You betcha!
But do we 'fall in and out of salvation'?
No way.
That's an offense to the cross of Christ and His FINISHED work.
They miss the point that right from the time of the fall,it's about God's mercy. God could have wiped out Adam and Eve on the spot but He didn't. They miss the point of why we are to forgive and restore the fallen brothers and sisters. And preach restoration between God and man because of His great love and mercy. It has to do with the fact that God had mercy on us and we are to show the same type of mercy that we received. And the heart of that is love,which comes because He first loved us and showed mercy to us. The fruits come out of that and show that our hearts have been changed.
P
Oh, and btw---the only problem with 'penal substitution'
falls upon those who do not receive it.
Scott, for you own sake, take a week's vacation,
STOP listening to the men you do
and just read the Bible.
ask God to make His Word clear to you.
read about the Old Covenant sacrificial system.
try to understand its principles---look! what did God have to to when Adam and Eve sinned?
in the Old Covenant, God COULD NOT be approached apart from innocent blood shed as a sacrifice for the sinner.
the Israelites had to bring a spotless sacrifice and place their hands upon it to show the transfer of their sin to it.
God said, "Be Holy as I am Holy."
do you honestly think we even begin to approach that?
NO. so a sacrifice IS needed; innocent, spotless blood shed and sprinkled on the mercy seat.
over and over, in the Old Covenant, again and again, for sin doesn't cease.
the wages of sin IS DEATH, and that's what had to be paid.
the life of the flesh is in the blood, and that's what had to be shed.
but when the fullness of time had come God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law
to redeem those under the Law.
how?
exactly as pictured in the Old Covenant, the shadow of The Reality.
Substitutionary Atonement, thank God. ♥
falls upon those who do not receive it.
Scott, for you own sake, take a week's vacation,
STOP listening to the men you do
and just read the Bible.
ask God to make His Word clear to you.
read about the Old Covenant sacrificial system.
try to understand its principles---look! what did God have to to when Adam and Eve sinned?
in the Old Covenant, God COULD NOT be approached apart from innocent blood shed as a sacrifice for the sinner.
the Israelites had to bring a spotless sacrifice and place their hands upon it to show the transfer of their sin to it.
God said, "Be Holy as I am Holy."
do you honestly think we even begin to approach that?
NO. so a sacrifice IS needed; innocent, spotless blood shed and sprinkled on the mercy seat.
over and over, in the Old Covenant, again and again, for sin doesn't cease.
the wages of sin IS DEATH, and that's what had to be paid.
the life of the flesh is in the blood, and that's what had to be shed.
but when the fullness of time had come God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law
to redeem those under the Law.
how?
exactly as pictured in the Old Covenant, the shadow of The Reality.
Substitutionary Atonement, thank God. ♥
Sarah. I will try and answer all questions that might BUILD a unity in Faith. Ok! Let us start with the CHURCH of Christ. God knows who are in that Church, and they ALL started as sinners. But as the false teaching is said... Like Paul say HE IS THE CHIEF OF SINNERS.... False Paul NEVER said that.... Paul said he is the chief of SAVED sinners.... Big difference.
Read it again Unclefester.... Paul mentions how God saves sinners of whom HE IS CHIEF... SAVED SINNERS. Paul is the chief of sinners that was SAVED.... That is what he says. .... And we all know Saul was the chief sinner, but is PAUL chef sinner. You are twisting his words. Then why is Paul asking this ... Romans 3:7... why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
What a foolish man I would be to only believe in perfection when I reach it. What a foolish man would have hope on God, but would only believe if he SEES God. Whom of you think faith is only obtainable if we see.... Who knows what faith is?
I share what God teaches me. God showes me what HE makes ALL His children, I share it with fellow hopefulls but they are just to "under grace" to believe with me. Who said we shouls be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect... Jeus did. Whatever weak explaination you want to give, it is not going to change. NEVER! Even after the earth was burnt, that statement would still stand! Guarenteed! God gaurentee this.
And whatever any of us say, God has a will for ALL people on this earth, and that will, is to worship God in TRUTH and in SPIRIT. Truth is fixed... And Truth is.... BE PERFECT! BE HOLY! .... God commanded this. And whatever HE commands will be done, IN HIS PEOPLE! If He commands it, HE will provide what is neccesary to DO IT! What do you think makes a piece of flesh HOLY AND PERFECT? What can take a sinner, help him repent, and tke him all the way to PERFECTION... Knowing what Jesus had known. To the SAME MEASURE and FULNESS of Jesus. What or WHO can do this. Not Cobus, Not any of you, but GOD CAN. And HE does! The Bible teaches this in MANY places. And you all know this, but something justs keeps you in some wiggling track.
Sarah, All people needs teaching and they need to be perfected by the apostles, prohets, pastors and teachers and evangelists.... But once they are perfected, once they did come to the unity of faith, and the body of Christ Jesus, do they need ANYTHING again....The Bible says NO! They need NOTHING! Not even GRACE OF GOD! because they are where God wants them.... IN HIM.
In God is PERFECTION, NO SIN, NO NEED, HOLINESS, Glorification. ABSOLUTE GODLINESS for all to STAY IN HIM. Hidden from the world.
Fester, I CANNOT come and share AFTER I am perfect... I WILL BE HID FROM YOU AND THE WORLD. You cannot see the perfect people. They are HID in God from all sinners and world. Biblical 100% correct. Read it in your Bible...
My dear friends, I really tried to share with you that God is greater thn ANY sin. God says that whomsoever is born of Him CANNOT sin.... That means NO sin. Not even ONE! Not even one MISTAKE as some put it. I think you should think about this..... HOW IS GOD'S will being done in heaven..... Think on this do not read further.... How much sin is playing off in heaven RIGHT NOW????? THINK THINK!!!!
Why did Jesus teach us to pray.... Father LET THOU WILL BE DONE N EARTH AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN.....
Becasue HE CAN LET IT HAPPEN, AND HE DOES! Read John 17, And imagine you are where Jesus is, and He is where YOU ARE! If that is not perfect, and ABSOLUTELY SPOTLESS, what is?
I love you all, AND MAY FATHERS WILL BE DONE IN US AS IT IS DONE N HEAVEN!
Read it again Unclefester.... Paul mentions how God saves sinners of whom HE IS CHIEF... SAVED SINNERS. Paul is the chief of sinners that was SAVED.... That is what he says. .... And we all know Saul was the chief sinner, but is PAUL chef sinner. You are twisting his words. Then why is Paul asking this ... Romans 3:7... why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
What a foolish man I would be to only believe in perfection when I reach it. What a foolish man would have hope on God, but would only believe if he SEES God. Whom of you think faith is only obtainable if we see.... Who knows what faith is?
I share what God teaches me. God showes me what HE makes ALL His children, I share it with fellow hopefulls but they are just to "under grace" to believe with me. Who said we shouls be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect... Jeus did. Whatever weak explaination you want to give, it is not going to change. NEVER! Even after the earth was burnt, that statement would still stand! Guarenteed! God gaurentee this.
And whatever any of us say, God has a will for ALL people on this earth, and that will, is to worship God in TRUTH and in SPIRIT. Truth is fixed... And Truth is.... BE PERFECT! BE HOLY! .... God commanded this. And whatever HE commands will be done, IN HIS PEOPLE! If He commands it, HE will provide what is neccesary to DO IT! What do you think makes a piece of flesh HOLY AND PERFECT? What can take a sinner, help him repent, and tke him all the way to PERFECTION... Knowing what Jesus had known. To the SAME MEASURE and FULNESS of Jesus. What or WHO can do this. Not Cobus, Not any of you, but GOD CAN. And HE does! The Bible teaches this in MANY places. And you all know this, but something justs keeps you in some wiggling track.
Sarah, All people needs teaching and they need to be perfected by the apostles, prohets, pastors and teachers and evangelists.... But once they are perfected, once they did come to the unity of faith, and the body of Christ Jesus, do they need ANYTHING again....The Bible says NO! They need NOTHING! Not even GRACE OF GOD! because they are where God wants them.... IN HIM.
In God is PERFECTION, NO SIN, NO NEED, HOLINESS, Glorification. ABSOLUTE GODLINESS for all to STAY IN HIM. Hidden from the world.
Fester, I CANNOT come and share AFTER I am perfect... I WILL BE HID FROM YOU AND THE WORLD. You cannot see the perfect people. They are HID in God from all sinners and world. Biblical 100% correct. Read it in your Bible...
My dear friends, I really tried to share with you that God is greater thn ANY sin. God says that whomsoever is born of Him CANNOT sin.... That means NO sin. Not even ONE! Not even one MISTAKE as some put it. I think you should think about this..... HOW IS GOD'S will being done in heaven..... Think on this do not read further.... How much sin is playing off in heaven RIGHT NOW????? THINK THINK!!!!
Why did Jesus teach us to pray.... Father LET THOU WILL BE DONE N EARTH AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN.....
Becasue HE CAN LET IT HAPPEN, AND HE DOES! Read John 17, And imagine you are where Jesus is, and He is where YOU ARE! If that is not perfect, and ABSOLUTELY SPOTLESS, what is?
I love you all, AND MAY FATHERS WILL BE DONE IN US AS IT IS DONE N HEAVEN!