Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

[psychomom]

Then please explain why the Bible teaches "repentance for remission" if all future sins are forgiven in advance.


The sins are blotted out at the times of refreshing. Not future uncommitted rebellion, PAST REBELLION because the one who has repented and been converted is NO LONGER IN REBELLION.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

If the convert is to turn back to their old life of sin then no sacrifice remains exactly as Heb 10:26 says. It is repentance for remission. Not remission carte blanche unconditional of anything you do. That is pure foolishness.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant was his future sin of unforgivness pre-forgiven? Well was it?

I'm not sure discussion between us would be profitable, yet I will answer you to the best of my abilities.

If you see the Acts verse as being spoken to believers, I disagree.
Just because Peter says, "brethren' doesn't mean that, it means he's speaking to his fellow Jews
who as yet are not saved. That's why the preaching of repentance (change your mind and agree with God) for forgiveness.

The parable is so mulit-faceted, I think I may not be qualified to answer, but here are some observations:
1) it is spoken before the cross, and so the pre-church age.
2) it speaks to our forgivnesss of one another, first and foremost (as I see it)
3) it seems to be that though the Master offered forgiveness, the servant didn't necessarily enter into it by faith.
he could have been just another person looking for their own welfare, and not that of others; not interested in the
real gift the Master offers; not regenerate, in the vernacular...well, obviously that's
the case with this man.
4) can anyone truly forgive their brother from their heart without the Love of God motivating it from within?

I know that's pretty superficial, but it also seems to me that you are looking just at verses that might support your POV, as the entirety of the Bible says something different to what you say.

I'd be glad to hear someone else who God owns explain that parable more clearly.
And, for what it's worth, I forgive you, Scott, for what you say here.
And I'd be interested to know just how your sins are forgiven (the presumption given being, 'let's say you're saved'), since you can't crucify Jesus again...
Surely repentance alone cannot be enough.
You'd need a sacrifice.

 

[SarahM777]

Acts 3:19 within it's context

3 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. [SUP]3 [/SUP]When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, “Look at us!” [SUP]5 [/SUP]So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth,walk.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man’s feet and ankles became strong. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]When all the people saw him walking and praising God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
Peter Speaks to the Onlookers

[SUP]11[/SUP]While the man held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon’s Colonnade.[SUP]12 [/SUP]When Peter saw this, he said to them: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? [SUP]13 [/SUP]The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.[SUP]16 [/SUP]By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets,saying that his Messiah would suffer. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]26 [/SUP]When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

They are talking to Israelites not gentiles at that point in time.

 

[zone]

And so true.....please narrow down the size so i dont have to object to so much at a time.

what!
take away the size you got only one thing left - that hasta be buried so it looks like sumpthin else:

Acts 15:5
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

 

[zone]

Since when were you given the gift of suspiscion or the gift of soothsaying? What..you can read minds now?
Carefull zone..you're treading on thin ice now.

*cough*
search his posts - confession of sins plays no part in his stuff...he says he doesn't sin, so confession is counter to his "faith"
how about yours?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

no confession, no absolution.

come on now....y'all are all about repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Which surely would mean that God swapped the old covenant for a much harsher one.

Under the old covenannt a persons sins could be forgiven by burnt offerings, but according to Skinski under the new covenant they can't be forgiven.

So by Christ dying on the cross, God made it far harder for anyone to attain Heaven, if not impossible
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

How does that square with:

For God so loved the world..............

I guess we could all become catholic. at least they replaced sacrifice with many sacraments. one of them should be able to burn off sin so we could be forgiven.

these people don;t get it. if i did believe we had to work i would be catholic. alot more means to get in. I would not be like skinski here and some of the others praising themselves above all others. at least catholics for the most part don't judge.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's a nonsense, this is what Paul wrote to people he addressed as :

To the church of God in Corinth

Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly(carnal)—mere infants in Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?

yet according to people like skinski and raultoe these people would be condemned. and not as paul calls them "brothers and sisters in christ"

I guess paul did not get the memo that these people sinned there way out of eternal life. they werent babes in Christ, they were dead to christ again!!

 

[zone]

When did I say I have hatred for Holy living?

just sickening. the same old thing. so easy to spot these guys. that's all they ever say.

love you mark.
kath

 

[Abiding]

whats wrong? you feeling conviction?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

just sickening. the same old thing. so easy to spot these guys. that's all they ever say.

love you mark.
kath

yeah, all you have to do is confront them on a few things, and all of a sudden you have a hatred for holy living.. go figure.

 

[zone]

Listen id bet the folks around here you talk to with disdain have works(fruit) and holyness that
if it were measured would make you look like a filthy mess. Thing is who did they receive it from?
Themselves? No thats the point and thats whats being said here.

Your far too arrogant to see noone has a problem with the truth of the word or the doctrine
your just flattering yourself too much to think thats why your being contended with. ok?

 

[Skinski7]

I'm not sure discussion between us would be profitable, yet I will answer you to the best of my abilities.

If you see the Acts verse as being spoken to believers, I disagree.
Just because Peter says, "brethren' doesn't mean that, it means he's speaking to his fellow Jews
who as yet are not saved. That's why the preaching of repentance (change your mind and agree with God) for forgiveness.

The parable is so mulit-faceted, I think I may not be qualified to answer, but here are some observations:
1) it is spoken before the cross, and so the pre-church age.
2) it speaks to our forgivnesss of one another, first and foremost (as I see it)
3) it seems to be that though the Master offered forgiveness, the servant didn't necessarily enter into it by faith.
he could have been just another person looking for their own welfare, and not that of others; not interested in the
real gift the Master offers; not regenerate, in the vernacular...well, obviously that's
the case with this man.
4) can anyone truly forgive their brother from their heart without the Love of God motivating it from within?

I know that's pretty superficial, but it also seems to me that you are looking just at verses that might support your POV, as the entirety of the Bible says something different to what you say.

I'd be glad to hear someone else who God owns explain that parable more clearly.
And, for what it's worth, I forgive you, Scott, for what you say here.
And I'd be interested to know just how your sins are forgiven (the presumption given being, 'let's say you're saved'), since you can't crucify Jesus again...
Surely repentance alone cannot be enough.
You'd need a sacrifice.

You didn't address the issue I raised at all. You merely implied that "that is old school" so to speak.

How can "repentance be for remission" if the sins are already remitted?

Do you honestly believe that a murderer can be engaged in the act of murder and yet at the same time be forgiven for that murder? Likewise an adulter, fornicator, porn watcher, drunkard, thief etc. That is what you must believe?

Address the specifics of the points I make please.


The problem with Penal Substitition is that it teaches that Jesus literally absorbed the wrath of God for all your sins and thus any sin that you have committed or will commit is already taken care of. It completely negates repentance for remission.

 

[zone]

Do you claim to be morally perfect Skinski?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You didn't address the issue I raised at all. You merely implied that "that is old school" so to speak.

How can "repentance be for remission" if the sins are already remitted?

they can't be, Thats why you repent BEFORE you have faith, which leads to justification and eternal life.

Do you honestly believe that a murderer can be engaged in the act of murder and yet at the same time be forgiven for that murder? Likewise an adulter, fornicator, porn watcher, drunkard, thief etc. That is what you must believe?

So your sinless? Do you honestly believe you are sinless? God said ALL sin is enough to separate man from him. All sin leads to death. But the GIFT of God is eternal life. So how can you be saved when you are continuing to sin. and what makes you different from them?

Address the specifics of the points I make please.


The problem with Penal Substitition is that it teaches that Jesus literally absorbed the wrath of God for all your sins and thus any sin that you have committed or will commit is already taken care of. It completely negates repentance for remission.

1. This is not true. If one does not repent. they can have no remission.
2. God did suffer the wrath of God for all of our sin. Paul says so. you can deny it all you want.

Colossians 2:13-14

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

last I read. ALL meant ALL. not some.

 

[zone]

yeah, all you have to do is confront them on a few things, and all of a sudden you have a hatred for holy living.. go figure.

The holiness movement refers to a set of beliefs and practices emerging from 19th-century Methodism, and to a number of evangelical Christian denominations who emphasize those beliefs as a central doctrine. The movement is distinguished by its emphasis on John Wesley's "Christian perfection" teaching—the belief that it is possible to live free of voluntary sin, and particularly by the belief that this may be accomplished instantaneously through a second work of grace.

Holiness movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < CLICK

^^ fake holiness....cheap grace ^^

 

[Skinski7]

It's a nonsense, this is what Paul wrote to people he addressed as :

To the church of God in Corinth

Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly(carnal)—mere infants in Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?

This is a perfect example of how isolated passages of Scripture are used to support the sin gospel.

The "carnality" Paul was addressing was "raising up one teacher above another and the division, jealousy and debate it caused." Paul was correcting them and telling them to abstain from this sort of behaviour.

Paul then goes on to explain that in the ministry of the gospel there are many involved who all have their part. Paul planted, Apollos watered, but it is God that gives the increase.

Paul then explains that it is not about "which teacher is better" for in the end the church building labour which is unproductive is wood, hay and stubble and as such will be burned up, while the labour that is as gold and precious stones will be rewarded.

Paul is not teaching that you are forgiven IN YOUR SINS. Or that you can willfully walk in the flesh and enter the kingdom.

In Chapter 5 Paul makes it known that he has heard there is fornication among them, especially in the context of a man who has his dads wife. Paul then makes this statement...

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This is because such action would infect the church.

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Paul then later explicity warns them that the people who do these things will not inherit the kingdom...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Yet many of you DENY Paul's teaching and sincerely believe YOU CAN do those things and enter the kingdom because you believe that Jesus already paid the penalty for those things and thus there is no sin you could do which would disqualify you.

You are so deceived.

Paul warned the Ephesians about sin...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


Yet if I ask many of you does the fornication have to stop you'll dance around the question.

The fornication, lying, cheating, stealing, idolatry MUST STOP or you are not going to enter the kingdom. It is that simple. Yes there is grace and mercy but that grace and mercy is not so you can continue walking in the lusts of the flesh. Anyone who is walking in the lusts of their flesh up to the moment they die will most certainly not inherit the kingdom.

It is very simple. It is the pure in heart that will see God and the pure in heart have crucified their flesh with the passions and desires and thus they don't do the things listed in 1Cor 6:9-10.

 

[zone]

Sarah, who does God use as the MOLD for ALL His children.... Jesus. ALL His children he recreates to HIS LIKENESS. That is why Jesus do not shame Himself to call them BRETHREN.

Abiding, the Children of the light is not fearful for the light, THEY LIVE IN IT, and in the LIGHT is NO DARKNESS that need exposè. It is already revealed as GOOD WORKS, HOLY LIFE. PERFECT MEN!

Triby... This is where you miss the pot completely.... Man centered is NOT GOD'S. All God's Children are GOD CENTERED. The centre of man is man, the centre of HOLY MAN id GOD's Holy Spirit. Do you see the difference? There is a difference in the two, and it is appauling in the one, and BOLDNESS in the other.


When the Spirit of God confess a man to be God's child, he has BOLDNESS before God. But if a man with a man's spirit confess to be God's child, you get what you get right here on CC. Sickening doctrines of SATAN! Men professing to be Christ-like but with serpent hearts. Stony hearts...


Here is the verses that completely destroy your faith that there is no one perfect....

Ezekiel 36:26 and 27. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

If any of you think a man with this heart that God gave him is not perfect, THINK AGAIN! If any of you think a man with God's Spirit in him is a man, you are again completely off the track and the WAY.... They are all HOLY MEN OF GOD!

are you saved yet?
any plans on it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

are you saved yet?
any plans on it?

Hey Zone!

If three murderers like David, Moses and Paul can be saved and called beloved of God, I think Cobus has a chance.. You think he will take it?

 

[zone]

The "carnality" Paul was addressing was "raising up one teacher above another and the division, jealousy and debate it caused." Paul was correcting them and telling them to abstain from this sort of behaviour.

Standing The Gap Ministry

go here to tear down, not to raise up.
when you are rejected as heretics, it'll be proof you're a suffering prophet crying in the wilderness.

 

[mark54]

yet according to people like skinski and raultoe these people would be condemned. and not as paul calls them "brothers and sisters in christ"

I guess paul did not get the memo that these people sinned there way out of eternal life. they werent babes in Christ, they were dead to christ again!!

None should be fooled by Skinsjis rhetoric

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace

Rom 6:14
Now according to Skinskii, you are only not under law if you live a sinless life/you never sin. That makes a lot of sense doesn't it??????

Ifr you don't ever break the law you are not under the law. Where is the grace in that?

No, sin shall not be your master, BECAUSE you are not under law.
The only way you can not be under law is if Jesus died for ALL your sins at Calvary. If he only died for the sin you comitted before you got saved, you MUST be under law

Heb conforms Paul's message of course:


For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself

Also

For by one sacrifice he made forever perfect those who are being made Holy
Heb 10:14

If you bare BEING made Holy you cannot be perfect in the flesh. But God sees you as perfect where it matters for he sees what his son did for you on the cross

Problem is for some, this takes away from the individual taking the credit. There can't be any boasting(though done subtly of course)

It takes away the
I did it, it was me, I made myself pure and holy, I put my own flesh to death, I, I, I, ME ME, ME.

And don't forget, these people demand of you what they do not attempt to do themselves, that is Phariseeical, no question

 

[mark54]

Standing The Gap Ministry

go here to tear down, not to raise up.
when you are rejected as heretics, it'll be proof you're a suffering prophet crying in the wilderness.

he sure is trying his darndest isn't he to have a Gospel of his own personal goodness.
Better not mention some of them getting drunk at the communion table, he'll accuse me of promoting sin.