And BTW, anyone is free to express their disagreement via "Red X's"... but I come away from those not knowing how the person would biblically contest any of the things I've written in any post onto which they've attached their "Red X"... so in that sense alone, I find it unhelpful (coz I'd really like to know HOW they would biblically contest what it is that I've presented in those particular posts--I've not seen any responses to that effect... unless I've simply overlooked them).
Post Trib Rapture?
- Thread starter Radius
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R
And, they are ALL referring to the circa 70 A.D. events that mark the beginning of the 'Great Tribulation' - which we are still in today - which will end at some point in our future.
...until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
At which point:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
...until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
At which point:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
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I think the post tribulation believers should do some serious research on Revelation -2-3 and then Revelation 4 ------
Revelation -2 and 3 ---the Church of Christ is mentioned on the earth ---after Revelation 3 -- --the Church is not mentioned on the earth ----- Revelation 4 we are in Heaven ---------Tribulation starts in Revelation 6
see this in verse 4 ------Revelation 4
it says there are 24 Elders ------
So who are these 24 Elders ---
we see their cloths are white --and they have crowns of Gold on their---- heads -----could this be the Church -----if so then the Church was Raptured and are safe from the tribulation which hasn't began yet ------
Many Scholars believe it is the Church ---Some believe they are Angels ----but no where does Scripture ever say angels wear Gold Crowns on their heads -------Scripture does say ---that the Saints are given Crowns for their deeds ------and in verse 10 ---these elders lay their crowns down at the Foot of God's Throne ------and Worship Him ------
Revelation 4 NIV
The Throne in Heaven
4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.
4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
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This is a 3 min video ----John MacArthur -and his view ---with the written article for the Video ----for those who are interested in listening or reading his thoughts ------
59,436 views 22 Apr 2011
Now there's a chronology in the Book of Revelation. In the first chapter you have just a presentation of Christ and some general things about what's going to happen.
But in Chapter 2 the church is pictured on earth.
In Chapter 3 the church is pictured on earth.
And in Chapter 4 we're introduced to some interesting individuals.
Verse 4 we all of a sudden pop up to heaven and we get up to heaven in verse 4 and incidentally the tribulation hasn't started. It doesn't start until Chapter 6 so we're in Chapter 4 in heaven. And it says in verse
4, "Round about the throne were four and twenty thrones and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment they had on their heads crowns of gold." Now verse 10 says, "the four and twenty elders fall down before him that seated on the throne and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever and cast their crowns before the throne saying, 'Thou art worthy O Lord,'" and so forth. Now here we meet 24 elders. Some people think these are angels. I do not think they are angels because nowhere in Scripture are angels ever called elders.
Since angels do not have a concept of age the term elder would be misapplied if granted to angels. Elder basically means just what it is, elder, older, mature, experienced.
Angels are as old now as when they were created. They have no concept of time related to their existence.
Others say that these are Old Testament saints.
Incidentally if you can confirm that this is the church, then you've got the church in heaven before the tribulation, see. So it's an important point.
So if you want to make sure the church goes through the tribulation you got to do something with the 24 elders. They can't be the church. So some say they are Old Testament saints. Well that's a problem and the reason for that is in Chapter 5, verse 9, because here the 24 elders sing.
Now you know what they sing? They sing a new song and the song is this: now watch it. "Thou art worthy to take the scroll and open its seal," singing to Christ. "For thou was slain as redeemed us to God by thy blood, watch, out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation." That's not Israel, right?
I do not believe that the 24 elders are Israel, nor do I believe that half of them are Israel and the other half are the apostles. Some say the 12 of them are the 12 representatives of the 12 tribes. That can't be. They had been redeemed from every tribe and kindred and tongue and nation. Now that only characterizes one group. Which group? The church.
Again, the white raiment in verse 4 of Chapter 4 is the symbol of the church's purity.
Again, the crowns that they wear on their heads is not the word diatomah, which would be a kingly crown, but the word stephanas, a victor's crown.
Who is promised again and again and again the victor's crown? The church. And the joy of the church in Chapter 4:10 casting their crowns where? At the feet of Jesus Christ.
I believe, clearly, the 24 elders are the church. If so they're in heaven before the tribulation begins
Revelation -2 and 3 ---the Church of Christ is mentioned on the earth ---after Revelation 3 -- --the Church is not mentioned on the earth ----- Revelation 4 we are in Heaven ---------Tribulation starts in Revelation 6
see this in verse 4 ------Revelation 4
it says there are 24 Elders ------
So who are these 24 Elders ---
we see their cloths are white --and they have crowns of Gold on their---- heads -----could this be the Church -----if so then the Church was Raptured and are safe from the tribulation which hasn't began yet ------
Many Scholars believe it is the Church ---Some believe they are Angels ----but no where does Scripture ever say angels wear Gold Crowns on their heads -------Scripture does say ---that the Saints are given Crowns for their deeds ------and in verse 10 ---these elders lay their crowns down at the Foot of God's Throne ------and Worship Him ------
Revelation 4 NIV
The Throne in Heaven
4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.
4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
who was, and is, and is to come.”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a 3 min video ----John MacArthur -and his view ---with the written article for the Video ----for those who are interested in listening or reading his thoughts ------
59,436 views 22 Apr 2011
Now there's a chronology in the Book of Revelation. In the first chapter you have just a presentation of Christ and some general things about what's going to happen.
But in Chapter 2 the church is pictured on earth.
In Chapter 3 the church is pictured on earth.
And in Chapter 4 we're introduced to some interesting individuals.
Verse 4 we all of a sudden pop up to heaven and we get up to heaven in verse 4 and incidentally the tribulation hasn't started. It doesn't start until Chapter 6 so we're in Chapter 4 in heaven. And it says in verse
4, "Round about the throne were four and twenty thrones and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment they had on their heads crowns of gold." Now verse 10 says, "the four and twenty elders fall down before him that seated on the throne and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever and cast their crowns before the throne saying, 'Thou art worthy O Lord,'" and so forth. Now here we meet 24 elders. Some people think these are angels. I do not think they are angels because nowhere in Scripture are angels ever called elders.
Since angels do not have a concept of age the term elder would be misapplied if granted to angels. Elder basically means just what it is, elder, older, mature, experienced.
Angels are as old now as when they were created. They have no concept of time related to their existence.
Others say that these are Old Testament saints.
Incidentally if you can confirm that this is the church, then you've got the church in heaven before the tribulation, see. So it's an important point.
So if you want to make sure the church goes through the tribulation you got to do something with the 24 elders. They can't be the church. So some say they are Old Testament saints. Well that's a problem and the reason for that is in Chapter 5, verse 9, because here the 24 elders sing.
Now you know what they sing? They sing a new song and the song is this: now watch it. "Thou art worthy to take the scroll and open its seal," singing to Christ. "For thou was slain as redeemed us to God by thy blood, watch, out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation." That's not Israel, right?
I do not believe that the 24 elders are Israel, nor do I believe that half of them are Israel and the other half are the apostles. Some say the 12 of them are the 12 representatives of the 12 tribes. That can't be. They had been redeemed from every tribe and kindred and tongue and nation. Now that only characterizes one group. Which group? The church.
Again, the white raiment in verse 4 of Chapter 4 is the symbol of the church's purity.
Again, the crowns that they wear on their heads is not the word diatomah, which would be a kingly crown, but the word stephanas, a victor's crown.
Who is promised again and again and again the victor's crown? The church. And the joy of the church in Chapter 4:10 casting their crowns where? At the feet of Jesus Christ.
I believe, clearly, the 24 elders are the church. If so they're in heaven before the tribulation begins
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Well, that's what I see you doing instead... = )
... when you do not acknowledge that "first [in quality]" is just as legitimate a definition of the ADJECTIVE [G4413] used in 20:5,6 as "first [in time]"... but you do not because you want to hold on to your "idea" that the Trib saints who were killed/martyred or beheaded (of whom v.4b solely refers and v.5's "THIS" points back to specifically: "THIS is the resurrection the FIRST [ADJ]") are the first in time to have been resurrected... along with ALL other saints resurrected at the same time who aren't spoken of directly in the context, as you seem to want to inject here so as to stick to your "idea"... but which idea disregards quite a number of other scriptural factors (I've spelled out in many past posts of previous threads)... I'll just put one here by way of reminder:
--1Cor15:22-23 (two verses) are JOINED in thought by the "BUT" conjunction... so to join the "so also IN CHRIST" [not Christ Himself, but believers!]
"SHALL [future tense] all be made alive, BUT [conj] EACH [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] IN HIS/THE OWN ORDER / RANK"...
so, so far, this is saying OF BELIEVERS [those "IN CHRIST" (not Christ Himself, which v.20 had spoken of)] that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at ONE POINT IN TIME (rather, "IN THE OWN ORDER / RANK"<--There is an ORDER / RANK to it),
...which is exactly why Paul later in the chapter says, "Behold, I SHEW you a MYSTERY" (something not having been previously disclosed, like what ALL OT saints already WELL-KNEW per Jn11:24, Dan12:13, Job19:25-27, etc [<--this, re: IN the LAST DAY i.e. IN the LAST Millennium! aka the 7th--or "IN the THIRD DAY" from the perspective of His ascension per Hos5:14-6:3<--tho not referencing "bodily/physical resurrection" in THIS particular passage, but rather what "THINGS" Jn6:39 references [distinct from the "PERSONS"--having physically died--which v.40 speaks of]);
...and which is why Paul uses the distinct terms "EPeita" (v.23 "UPON-then" between the two clauses in v.23) and "eita" (v.24a; a SEQUENCE WORD with NO time-element attached to it--so 1000 years later fits perfectly well using this word, here! contrary to what "Amill-teachings" insist regarding this verse 24a's "THEN [eita] the end" into which they inject the idea of "THEN [immediately] the end" so as to hold to their idea that the MK doesn't come next, ALL "TIME" is DONE at that point, according to them... but which Isa24:21-23 categorically refutes [but they refuse to look there when they incorrectly CLAIM Rev20's idea of a thousand years coming next [in the sequence] "has NO corroboration"! Baloney. If only they would LOOK outside their small "Rev20" bubble they cling to and inject their own "idea" into...lol])
Some folks who tenaciously hold to saying NO HUMANS/MORTALS CAN GO UP TO HEAVEN nevertheless declare that this is exactly what the "2W" will do once THEY are resurrected from the dead, well prior to the end of the Trib (namely, at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology, at a time-slot distinct from when others will be resurrected).
... when you do not acknowledge that "first [in quality]" is just as legitimate a definition of the ADJECTIVE [G4413] used in 20:5,6 as "first [in time]"... but you do not because you want to hold on to your "idea" that the Trib saints who were killed/martyred or beheaded (of whom v.4b solely refers and v.5's "THIS" points back to specifically: "THIS is the resurrection the FIRST [ADJ]") are the first in time to have been resurrected... along with ALL other saints resurrected at the same time who aren't spoken of directly in the context, as you seem to want to inject here so as to stick to your "idea"... but which idea disregards quite a number of other scriptural factors (I've spelled out in many past posts of previous threads)... I'll just put one here by way of reminder:
--1Cor15:22-23 (two verses) are JOINED in thought by the "BUT" conjunction... so to join the "so also IN CHRIST" [not Christ Himself, but believers!]
"SHALL [future tense] all be made alive, BUT [conj] EACH [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] IN HIS/THE OWN ORDER / RANK"...
so, so far, this is saying OF BELIEVERS [those "IN CHRIST" (not Christ Himself, which v.20 had spoken of)] that there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at ONE POINT IN TIME (rather, "IN THE OWN ORDER / RANK"<--There is an ORDER / RANK to it),
...which is exactly why Paul later in the chapter says, "Behold, I SHEW you a MYSTERY" (something not having been previously disclosed, like what ALL OT saints already WELL-KNEW per Jn11:24, Dan12:13, Job19:25-27, etc [<--this, re: IN the LAST DAY i.e. IN the LAST Millennium! aka the 7th--or "IN the THIRD DAY" from the perspective of His ascension per Hos5:14-6:3<--tho not referencing "bodily/physical resurrection" in THIS particular passage, but rather what "THINGS" Jn6:39 references [distinct from the "PERSONS"--having physically died--which v.40 speaks of]);
...and which is why Paul uses the distinct terms "EPeita" (v.23 "UPON-then" between the two clauses in v.23) and "eita" (v.24a; a SEQUENCE WORD with NO time-element attached to it--so 1000 years later fits perfectly well using this word, here! contrary to what "Amill-teachings" insist regarding this verse 24a's "THEN [eita] the end" into which they inject the idea of "THEN [immediately] the end" so as to hold to their idea that the MK doesn't come next, ALL "TIME" is DONE at that point, according to them... but which Isa24:21-23 categorically refutes [but they refuse to look there when they incorrectly CLAIM Rev20's idea of a thousand years coming next [in the sequence] "has NO corroboration"! Baloney. If only they would LOOK outside their small "Rev20" bubble they cling to and inject their own "idea" into...lol])
Some folks who tenaciously hold to saying NO HUMANS/MORTALS CAN GO UP TO HEAVEN nevertheless declare that this is exactly what the "2W" will do once THEY are resurrected from the dead, well prior to the end of the Trib (namely, at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology, at a time-slot distinct from when others will be resurrected).
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Good post #107, @studentoftheword
I posted a similar video by another (Greek scholar) who points out the same thing, and especially points to the fact that in 5:9 the elders are saying "hast redeemed US"
I posted a similar video by another (Greek scholar) who points out the same thing, and especially points to the fact that in 5:9 the elders are saying "hast redeemed US"
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Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation?https://www.gotquestions.org/24-elders.html
Revelation 4:4 declares, “Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.” The book of Revelation nowhere specifically identifies who the twenty-four elders are. However, they are most likely representative of the Church. It is unlikely that they are angelic beings, as some suggest. The fact that they sit on thrones indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels ever rule or sit on thrones. The Church, however, is repeatedly said to rule and reign with Christ (Revelation 2:26-27, 5:10, 20:4; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30).
In addition, the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels, only to men, particularly to men of a certain age who are mature and able to rule the Church. The word elder would be inappropriate to refer to angels, who do not age. Their mode of dress would also indicate these are men. While angels do appear in white, white garments are more commonly found on believers, symbolizing Christ’s righteousness imputed to us at salvation (Revelation 3:5,18; 19:8).
The golden crowns worn by the elders also indicate these are men, not angels. Crowns are never promised to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. The word translated “crown” here refers to the victor’s crown, worn by those who have successfully competed and won the victory, as Christ promised (Revelation 2:10; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12).
Some people believe these twenty-four elders represent Israel, but at the time of this vision, Israel as a whole nation had not yet been redeemed. The elders cannot represent tribulation saints for the same reason—not all had yet been converted at the time of John’s vision.
The most likely option is that the elders represent the raptured Church which sings songs of redemption (Revelation 5:8-10). They wear the crowns of victory and have gone to the place prepared for them by their Redeemer (John 14:1-4).
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This is from compelling truth ----I just posted this one part ---------read all here
https://www.compellingtruth.org/24-elders.html
Again, while not specifically explained, the information in Scripture most likely identifies these twenty-four elders as representatives of the church, those who will dwell with the Lord during the tribulation period while God's judgments take place on the earth.
Further, this fits the historic view of elders representing leadership of local churches (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9), offering a picture of God's people worshiping God after escaping the tribulation as a result of the rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58).
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The twenty-four Elders
https://www.lightsource.com/ministr...d-jeremiah/the-twenty-four-elders-732823.html
Revelation 4:4 declares, “Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.” The book of Revelation nowhere specifically identifies who the twenty-four elders are. However, they are most likely representative of the Church. It is unlikely that they are angelic beings, as some suggest. The fact that they sit on thrones indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels ever rule or sit on thrones. The Church, however, is repeatedly said to rule and reign with Christ (Revelation 2:26-27, 5:10, 20:4; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30).
In addition, the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels, only to men, particularly to men of a certain age who are mature and able to rule the Church. The word elder would be inappropriate to refer to angels, who do not age. Their mode of dress would also indicate these are men. While angels do appear in white, white garments are more commonly found on believers, symbolizing Christ’s righteousness imputed to us at salvation (Revelation 3:5,18; 19:8).
The golden crowns worn by the elders also indicate these are men, not angels. Crowns are never promised to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. The word translated “crown” here refers to the victor’s crown, worn by those who have successfully competed and won the victory, as Christ promised (Revelation 2:10; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12).
Some people believe these twenty-four elders represent Israel, but at the time of this vision, Israel as a whole nation had not yet been redeemed. The elders cannot represent tribulation saints for the same reason—not all had yet been converted at the time of John’s vision.
The most likely option is that the elders represent the raptured Church which sings songs of redemption (Revelation 5:8-10). They wear the crowns of victory and have gone to the place prepared for them by their Redeemer (John 14:1-4).
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This is from compelling truth ----I just posted this one part ---------read all here
https://www.compellingtruth.org/24-elders.html
Again, while not specifically explained, the information in Scripture most likely identifies these twenty-four elders as representatives of the church, those who will dwell with the Lord during the tribulation period while God's judgments take place on the earth.
Further, this fits the historic view of elders representing leadership of local churches (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9), offering a picture of God's people worshiping God after escaping the tribulation as a result of the rapture (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58).
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The twenty-four Elders
https://www.lightsource.com/ministr...d-jeremiah/the-twenty-four-elders-732823.html
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GaryA, we've gone over these many times in past threads, and it looks like we are never going to come to agreement here.
If you do not agree:
--that the SEALS are EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11... AND the INITIAL one [pang-singular] spoken of by Paul in 1Th5:3 which is the "KICK-OFF" point of them);
--[and if you do not agree...] that the SEALS [aka 'beginning of birth pangs'] fall WITHIN what Rev1:1 states are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" 1:19b [in chpts 2-3] which are NOT said are things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]" as the others are said "must" [1:1 "SHOW" / 1:19c / 4:1 "SHOW"(/7:3)]); that is, "[TO SHOW...] ... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" is NOT saying, things which will unfold over the course of some near-2000 years;
--[and if you do not agree...] that the "abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" can ONLY be speaking of the "AOD [singular, singular] that Dan12:11 speaks of and that Daniel was told he would be resurrected "AT THE END OF THE DAYS [the 'days' being spoken of IN THAT CONTEXT]" which are specific day-amounts that coincide with the day-amounts supplied WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (that 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of "must" come to pass in), so still ALL "future" to us today...
... then I think it's fruitless to keep going round and round on this point (re: the SEQUENCE ISSUES within the Olivet Discourse), as you believe "the beginning of birth PANGS" commenced back in the first century, and I've explained why I simply cannot agree. = )
If you do not agree:
--that the SEALS are EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11... AND the INITIAL one [pang-singular] spoken of by Paul in 1Th5:3 which is the "KICK-OFF" point of them);
--[and if you do not agree...] that the SEALS [aka 'beginning of birth pangs'] fall WITHIN what Rev1:1 states are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" 1:19b [in chpts 2-3] which are NOT said are things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]" as the others are said "must" [1:1 "SHOW" / 1:19c / 4:1 "SHOW"(/7:3)]); that is, "[TO SHOW...] ... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" is NOT saying, things which will unfold over the course of some near-2000 years;
--[and if you do not agree...] that the "abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" can ONLY be speaking of the "AOD [singular, singular] that Dan12:11 speaks of and that Daniel was told he would be resurrected "AT THE END OF THE DAYS [the 'days' being spoken of IN THAT CONTEXT]" which are specific day-amounts that coincide with the day-amounts supplied WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (that 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of "must" come to pass in), so still ALL "future" to us today...
... then I think it's fruitless to keep going round and round on this point (re: the SEQUENCE ISSUES within the Olivet Discourse), as you believe "the beginning of birth PANGS" commenced back in the first century, and I've explained why I simply cannot agree. = )
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he’s literally explaining the destruction of Jerusalem in 67-70 ad telling them all this you see is going to be destroyed
“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Matthew 24:1-2 KJV
that happened in 67/70 ad how could it not be referencing the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple ?
matthews account is mixed between two questions is why it confuses people they ask him
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? ( 1 question )
and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”( 2 questions )
Matthew 24:3 KJV
when is the temple and city going to be destroyed Jesus ? And when is your second coming and the end of the world Jesus ?
his answer is to both questions he tells them ofnthe destruction of Jerusalem in 67-70 ad about thirty years later and also tells them about the end of the world that is yet a long ways off when he told them
she’s telling them what is going to begin the great tribulation and spread it into the world with the people scattered from Jerusalem after it’s destruction on ad 70
a people mix the two answers together so it’s confusing. If we look at everything Jesus said about his second coming and Jerusalem it really becomes clear what he’s saying
jerusalems destruction would be the catalyst to spread tribulation into the earth and with it the gospel would be preached in all the world. Eventually like Jerusalem and it’s temple we’re destroyed like Jesus said they would be
the world also has a day of reckoning when Jesus returns in the end of the world after all the tribulation he’s explained ends he tells them that’s when he will return
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
you have to correlate the questions they asked him with the answers he gave
They are mourning because the world is ending the stars and sun and moon are put out
a Jesus tells hen that soon thoer temple would be destroyed that happened in 70 ad d he said that would be the beginning of sorrows in tbe world famines wars earthquakes sorrows death betrayals abominations basically present day earth and eventually after those tribulations were fulfilled he would return from heaven and gather his elect people and destroy the rest[/QUOTE]
“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Matthew 24:1-2 KJV
that happened in 67/70 ad how could it not be referencing the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple ?
matthews account is mixed between two questions is why it confuses people they ask him
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? ( 1 question )
and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”( 2 questions )
Matthew 24:3 KJV
when is the temple and city going to be destroyed Jesus ? And when is your second coming and the end of the world Jesus ?
his answer is to both questions he tells them ofnthe destruction of Jerusalem in 67-70 ad about thirty years later and also tells them about the end of the world that is yet a long ways off when he told them
she’s telling them what is going to begin the great tribulation and spread it into the world with the people scattered from Jerusalem after it’s destruction on ad 70
a people mix the two answers together so it’s confusing. If we look at everything Jesus said about his second coming and Jerusalem it really becomes clear what he’s saying
jerusalems destruction would be the catalyst to spread tribulation into the earth and with it the gospel would be preached in all the world. Eventually like Jerusalem and it’s temple we’re destroyed like Jesus said they would be
the world also has a day of reckoning when Jesus returns in the end of the world after all the tribulation he’s explained ends he tells them that’s when he will return
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
you have to correlate the questions they asked him with the answers he gave
They are mourning because the world is ending the stars and sun and moon are put out
a Jesus tells hen that soon thoer temple would be destroyed that happened in 70 ad d he said that would be the beginning of sorrows in tbe world famines wars earthquakes sorrows death betrayals abominations basically present day earth and eventually after those tribulations were fulfilled he would return from heaven and gather his elect people and destroy the rest[/QUOTE]
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Do you believe the 70th week of Daniel ended in 70AD as he has stated?[/QUOTE]
As who stated ?
i don’t think many people understand daniels vision of seventy weeks honestly but no what I was saying is
At he tribulation hat Jesus is talking about began in 67-70 ad with the destruction of Jerusalem and that is what began the worldly sorrows and tribulations that still go on today
famines , wars earthquakes persecutions and government sanctioned injustices ethnic cleansings and massacres those terrible things are present today and have been for a long long time
What I was saying doesn’t have anything to do with daniels seventy weeks that’s a whole mother testament and co diction if israel Had ended thier transgressions
They didn’t instead they killed thoer messiah and were left desolate and were destroyed in ad 70 you know the abomination action of desolation ?
a that’s when Gods chosen people spit on , beat , whipped , falsely accused and condemned thier own God to death for claiming to be who he is that’s what caused Israel’s destruction and desolation
“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”
Matthew 21:37-44 KJV
Daniels vision of seventy weeks is about israel saving their covenant if they would have repented but they didn’t they killed thoer savior and were condemned and left desolate
Daniels vision is about this
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
Daniel 9:24 KJV
Instead they kept on in sin and transgression and killed the prince of life
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
Daniel 9:26
The Old Testament is always based on the people’s response will they repent and stop sinning ? They didn’t do they were destroyed and left desolate without a sanctuary for worship
daniels vision could be fulfilled either way salvstion for israel or desolation for israel based on if they would end transgression end sins and make reconciliation the people responded by crucifying Jesus and received the desolation
As who stated ?
i don’t think many people understand daniels vision of seventy weeks honestly but no what I was saying is
At he tribulation hat Jesus is talking about began in 67-70 ad with the destruction of Jerusalem and that is what began the worldly sorrows and tribulations that still go on today
famines , wars earthquakes persecutions and government sanctioned injustices ethnic cleansings and massacres those terrible things are present today and have been for a long long time
What I was saying doesn’t have anything to do with daniels seventy weeks that’s a whole mother testament and co diction if israel Had ended thier transgressions
They didn’t instead they killed thoer messiah and were left desolate and were destroyed in ad 70 you know the abomination action of desolation ?
a that’s when Gods chosen people spit on , beat , whipped , falsely accused and condemned thier own God to death for claiming to be who he is that’s what caused Israel’s destruction and desolation
“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”
Matthew 21:37-44 KJV
Daniels vision of seventy weeks is about israel saving their covenant if they would have repented but they didn’t they killed thoer savior and were condemned and left desolate
Daniels vision is about this
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
Daniel 9:24 KJV
Instead they kept on in sin and transgression and killed the prince of life
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
Daniel 9:26
The Old Testament is always based on the people’s response will they repent and stop sinning ? They didn’t do they were destroyed and left desolate without a sanctuary for worship
daniels vision could be fulfilled either way salvstion for israel or desolation for israel based on if they would end transgression end sins and make reconciliation the people responded by crucifying Jesus and received the desolation
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[I'm going to have to come back later to address other posts in this thread, as I'm in a rush atm, but I just wanted to add a thought to this ^ quote at top]
I've posted the following quote before, along these lines ^
[quoting Wm Kelly]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25
[end quoting Wm Kelly; bold and underline and color emphasis mine]
[notice also in 1Chron25:1,6 the mention of the "harps" (Rev5) and the psalteries (i.e. "earthen vessels") and the cymbals... hmmm; I had also posted an interesting study of the names in v.6... very interesting!!]
... which "change" ^ also corresponds with what I believe Hebrews 9:8-9a refers to, where it says,
"8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishing" in v.4!] still[/yet] having a standing [/STASIS / STASIN (<--note this word)], 9 which is a symbol [/a PARABLE] for the present time..."
I find that interesting...
[... along with the fact that Paul never uses the "definite article ['the']" when referencing us as "temple"]
'34 A.D.' and not '70 A.D.'
There is no gap in the 70 weeks.
Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html
Good memory...
There is no gap in the 70 weeks.
Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html
Good memory...
[/QUOTE]
Again, and again, and again. Will it sink in? The GT is an event that has never happened and will never happen again. Physical Jerusalem was destroy before. Put an X through 70 ad.
You should know better because Jesus pointed to a temple and said destroy this temple and I will build it in 3 days. Was he talking about what He just pointed too?
Matthew 26:61 KJV
And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
What say ye?
Again, and again, and again. Will it sink in? The GT is an event that has never happened and will never happen again. Physical Jerusalem was destroy before. Put an X through 70 ad.
You should know better because Jesus pointed to a temple and said destroy this temple and I will build it in 3 days. Was he talking about what He just pointed too?
Matthew 26:61 KJV
And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
What say ye?
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