But the Holy Spirit has been removed , that’s not possible! If a pretibber .
Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?
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I don't find that wording in the Bible. I think you introduced it.
Jesus said he would raise up believers on the last day in John many times .
Matthew 24:22 NKJV And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
I think this means that some of the elect will survive because those days will be shortened.
The elect are Christians like the Thessalonians: knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. (1 Thess 1:4)
I didn't give one. My comment was simply that for hundreds and even thousands of years people have been saying it's "near." It wasn't. I see no reason to believe after my studies that it is now near.
Rev 14;1-4
The Jewish elect firstfruits harvested 144,000 are now in heaven from earth DURING the trib.
The Jewish elect main harvest are taken from earth to heaven , gathered by Jesus during the trib.
Firstfruits preceding main harvest Jews.
It is so basic.
It is major postrib rapture blunder.
Psalm1 said:
"Who is the firstfruits of the church?"
Answer:
"22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
That is 1 Corinthians 15.
JESUS is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
See this points out the folly of postrib doctrine.
Without this knowledge, the 144,000 firstfruits are a Blurr.
( that is exactly why EVERY POSTRIB RAPTURE ADHRRENT must change it.)
Note that postribbers need a premillinium resurrection inserted in Rev 20.
None is there, but they insert it.
Now hold that against Rev 14.
The 144,000 firstfruits can not be Jesus, nor can they be a firstfruits of the first RESURRECTION.
I think every postribber I have debated has not known that Jesus is the firstfruits of the first resurrection.
QUOTE
" What post-tribber says the flood is analagous to the tribulation? Do you mean in the context of Matthew 24? That doesn't make sense in that context, because it tells us that the coming of the Son of man occurs after the tribulation of those days (called 'great tribulation' in the passage) and that as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. This is AFTER the tribulation "
I have never met a postribber that did not say "see, Noah was not taken before the flood, HE WENT THROUGH THE FLOOD"
So stop saying they do not equate the flood, and Noah going through it, pointing to the trib, as something made up by me.
QUOTE
"Can you agree with Jesus' teaching that the coming of the Son of man is after the tribulation, and His teaching that as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be?"
If the flood is tied to Noah without Question, and you say the flood does not represent the trib. ...is that to avoid the obvious that there is no post flood gathering??????
Because there is no postrib rapture anywhere in mat 24.
( no postribber has ever actually read mat 24 wording.)
Hello....AFTER THE TRIB, Jesus does not gather but SENDS angels to gather in heaven.
Psssst ....Jesus gathers in the rapture, and he tells you the setting is pretrib and the gathering is from earth...not heaven.
Absolutely nothing there anywhere in mat 24 of a rapture postrib..
Interesting.
Peel that onion back, and now a new position of, "the flood being connected to Noah is forbidden."
Maybe omit it with the pile of omissions we see in your doctrine
The flood omission.
QUOTE
"You have demonstrated that Jesus was in error or confused
1. Don't blaspheme Christ.
2. Don't lie about me.
Jesus was not in error confused, and I did not argue that he was. Those are your words. Do not attribute them to me.
For every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof on the day of judgment.
Be respectful to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is Lord"
Making you go against the bible is easy.
All I have to do is REPORT exactly what it says.
You got corrected so many times.
Your portrayal is so false.
You reframed and falsified what I said.
In no way did I indict Christ as being in error.
You flat out lied and misrepresented what I said
Sad you can not be honest.
Every postribber I debate has this bizarre knack for going off the rails.
I have made you go against the bible.
That is so easy my friend
QUOTE
"As far as pre-trib is concerned, I was raised believing that, then sat down and went through Revelation and other scripture looking for it, and it wasn't there. So I decided I wasn't going to be dogmatic about it and opened my mind. And of course upon meditation on scripture and reading it, I could see passages didn't align with pretrib"
...and yet I tear that false postrib rapture doctrine to pieces.
Blow holes in it a bus could drive through.
There is not a postribber anywhere that can honestly debate me.
QUOTE
"You haven't shown any Bible verses that support a pre-trib rapture. The passage we have been talking to sets the coming of the Son of man after the tribulation, and that is the passage we are discussing. I have also shown you passages from II Thessalonians that are inconsistent with pre-trib.
As far as pre-trib is concerned, I was raised believing that, then sat down and went through Revelation and other scripture looking for it, and it wasn't there. So I decided I wasn't going to be dogmatic about it and opened my mind. And of course upon meditation on scripture and reading it, I could see passages didn't align with pretrib"
Careful.
During the 7 year great tribulation, post rapture people turn to Christ and are saved. (Sealed) That is the express work of The Holy Spirit. I do not know any Pre Tribulation rapture believers who say that the Holy Spirit is taken away.
Jesus promised the Spirit as a permanent guide, teacher, seal of salvation, and comforter for believers (John 14:16-18). He also promised that the Holy Spirit’s power would help His followers to spread the message of the gospel around the world: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth” (Acts 1:8). The salvation of souls is a supernatural work only made possible by the Holy Spirit’s power at work in the world.
I wrote,
"Can you agree with Jesus' teaching that the coming of the Son of man is after the tribulation, and His teaching that as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be?"
@Psalm1 wrote,
All of our eschatologies that have a gathering have it set post flood because the flood happened thousands of years ago. In Matthew 24, we see that the coming of the Son of man happens after 'great tribulation'. The coming of the Son of man is compared to the way it was in the days of Noah. It doesn't say the tribulation is like the days of Noah.
There are other analogies also-- the thief coming at a time the house owner is unprepared, the master not knowing the hour his master would come. The next chapter tells the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. A common theme is unpreparedness. But again, this is related to unpreparedness for the coming of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation.
There is the _gathering_ of the elect after the tribulation in the passage.
Not heaven, but the ends of heaven. Look at how it is used in other scripture. Do you think Babylonians were in heaven in Isaiah's time?
Go stand on a hill or mountain. Look around you and you will see the 'end of heaven' where the heaven (sky) meets the earth. We also call it the horizon.
Here is a literal translation that calls
Isaiah 5:26 (KJV)
And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly.
Isaiah 13:5 (KJV)
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Look at a modern translation, less literal, more dynamic equivalence that translates the idea more into something we might say. rather than translating closer to word for word.
Isaiah 13:5 (NLT)
They come from distant countries, from beyond the farthest horizons. They are the LORD’s weapons to carry out his anger. With them he will destroy the whole land.
Show me one place in scripture where it says that Jesus gathers prior to the tribulation. Show me some scripture that justifies two second coming events.
Also notice there is a resurrection of the 'dead in Christ' at the rapture in I Thessalonians 4.
Now, the first resurrection occurs in Revelation 20, after the Rider on a white horse passage. Doesn't the FIRST resurrection occur after (or at) the Second coming.
How does that not contradict pretrib?
The angels sent forth to gather the elect from one horizon to the other is in the passage.
Interesting.
Peel that onion back, and now a new position of, "the flood being connected to Noah is forbidden."
Maybe omit it with the pile of omissions we see in your doctrine
The flood omission.
"Can you agree with Jesus' teaching that the coming of the Son of man is after the tribulation, and His teaching that as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be?"
@Psalm1 wrote,
All of our eschatologies that have a gathering have it set post flood because the flood happened thousands of years ago. In Matthew 24, we see that the coming of the Son of man happens after 'great tribulation'. The coming of the Son of man is compared to the way it was in the days of Noah. It doesn't say the tribulation is like the days of Noah.
There are other analogies also-- the thief coming at a time the house owner is unprepared, the master not knowing the hour his master would come. The next chapter tells the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. A common theme is unpreparedness. But again, this is related to unpreparedness for the coming of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation.
There is the _gathering_ of the elect after the tribulation in the passage.
Pretrib interpretations directly contradict the wording.
Not heaven, but the ends of heaven. Look at how it is used in other scripture. Do you think Babylonians were in heaven in Isaiah's time?
Go stand on a hill or mountain. Look around you and you will see the 'end of heaven' where the heaven (sky) meets the earth. We also call it the horizon.
Here is a literal translation that calls
Isaiah 5:26 (KJV)
And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly.
Isaiah 13:5 (KJV)
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Look at a modern translation, less literal, more dynamic equivalence that translates the idea more into something we might say. rather than translating closer to word for word.
Isaiah 13:5 (NLT)
They come from distant countries, from beyond the farthest horizons. They are the LORD’s weapons to carry out his anger. With them he will destroy the whole land.
Show me one place in scripture where it says that Jesus gathers prior to the tribulation. Show me some scripture that justifies two second coming events.
Also notice there is a resurrection of the 'dead in Christ' at the rapture in I Thessalonians 4.
Now, the first resurrection occurs in Revelation 20, after the Rider on a white horse passage. Doesn't the FIRST resurrection occur after (or at) the Second coming.
How does that not contradict pretrib?
The angels sent forth to gather the elect from one horizon to the other is in the passage.
Interesting.
Peel that onion back, and now a new position of, "the flood being connected to Noah is forbidden."
Maybe omit it with the pile of omissions we see in your doctrine
The flood omission.
I must say my friend you don’t know Pretrib doctrine very well . 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work : only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way . ( the he is the holyspirit that indwells believers. ) that is their claim ! I do not believe them at all its false doctrine. They claim this I have had extensive debate with some on this . These same people believed last September was when it was going to happen and yes they are false prophets. The Last day is when the 1 st resurrection takes place . That’s Jesus teaching.
Just so there is no confusion, he that is taken out of the way is actually the anti christ , so they have it all backwards as is common in false teachings.
God is of course restrainer , who else could be ?Or, the 2 Thessalonians 2:7 restrainer is the church.