Preterism, Futurism, Historicism 3 Schools of Interpretation

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rrcn

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Oct 15, 2023
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Yes, but Jeremiah was prophesying about the destruction of Jerusalem in his day, which he got to see, and Revelation is a prophecy for the end of days. They are not the same Babylon, even though the latter one did originate in the Babylon of Jeremiah's time
Did you read the last part?



This text does not say Jerusalem and Judah, it says the Earth. Jerusalem represents God's people through all ages. Where else will this prophecy fit except after the second coming of Jesus?

[Jer 4:23-27 KJV] 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
 
Nov 1, 2024
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Did you read the last part?



This text does not say Jerusalem and Judah, it says the Earth. Jerusalem represents God's people through all ages. Where else will this prophecy fit except after the second coming of Jesus?

[Jer 4:23-27 KJV] 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
The Hebrew word is eretz, which means land. You are choosing to interpret it as meaning the whole earth, but it's rarely used in that context, if at all. All of the cities of Judah were indeed laid waste during the Babylonian invasion
 

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
597
192
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The Hebrew word is eretz, which means land. You are choosing to interpret it as meaning the whole earth, but it's rarely used in that context, if at all. All of the cities of Judah were indeed laid waste during the Babylonian invasion
eres H776, same word as Gen. 1:2

[Gen 1:2 KJV] 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I checked further by entering the quoted verse in several different versions, they also use the word earth.

[Gen 1:2 KJV] 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[Jer 4:23 ASV] 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[Jer 4:23 NIV] 23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.
[Jer 4:23 NLT] 23 I looked at the earth, and it was empty and formless. I looked at the heavens, and there was no light.
[Jer 4:23 RSV] 23 I looked on the earth, and lo, it was waste and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
 
Nov 1, 2024
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[Jer 4:23 RSV] 23 I looked on the earth, and lo, it was waste and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
I just did a literal translation

I saw the land and beheld it was chaos and vacancy, and to the heavens and they had no light. Jeremiah 4:23
 
I have to disagree.


Do you see that the verses you quoted - along with verse 23 - indicate that His 'reign' must occur after His 'coming'?

Will He defeat death before He returns? No, of course not. His return will cause more death than ever before by virtue of the 'Wrath of God'.

If Jesus already came back circa 70 A.D. to start His reign, how-and-why is it that He would come back once again for the very same reason?

You need to see that - in the context of Corinthians 15 - the verses you quoted are not a [chronological] "play-by-play" description of immediate-post-Second-Coming activity - as if all that is indicated in those verses have already occurred at His coming. It is actually a synopsis (of sorts) of His reign - indicated, by virtue of verse 23, to align with His coming as being after His coming.
Hello Gary A,
Jesus reign began at His Ascension...Acts 1/ Dan 7.
He is reigning from the Heavenly Zion And Jerusalem right now Heb12:22-29

He rules in the midst of His enemies...Psalm110. 70 Ad was not a physical coming. It was A coming in Judgment against apostate Jerusalem. Jesus returns on the last day...jn6....
 
Oct 19, 2024
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I am a Paulinist regarding every doctrine he addressed, and his eschatology is found mainly in two passages:

1CR 15:50-57 says that the trumpet will sound and immediately the dead will be raised with immortal bodies and

1THS 4:14-5:3 says that Jesus will return from heaven with those who were saved and meet in the air those saints who are alive as they are raptured and immortalized. This event will occur unexpectedly, "like a thief in the night" (cf. MT 24:36-44).

The events in RV are next to impossible to jibe with Paul's teaching, so I hold the various interpretation of them very lightly.
Remember the 4th school of eschatology (Paulinism :^)
 
Dec 13, 2023
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eres H776, same word as Gen. 1:2

[Gen 1:2 KJV] 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

I checked further by entering the quoted verse in several different versions, they also use the word earth.

[Gen 1:2 KJV] 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[Jer 4:23 ASV] 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[Jer 4:23 NIV] 23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone.
[Jer 4:23 NLT] 23 I looked at the earth, and it was empty and formless. I looked at the heavens, and there was no light.
[Jer 4:23 RSV] 23 I looked on the earth, and lo, it was waste and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
Good posts

Strong's Lexicon
erets: Earth, land, ground, country, territory
Original Word: אֶרֶץ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: erets
Pronunciation: eh'-rets
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-rets)
Definition: Earth, land, ground, country, territory
Meaning: the earth
Word Origin: Derived from an unused root probably meaning to be firm
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - G1093 (γῆ, gē): Earth, land, ground
- G3625 (οἰκουμένη, oikoumenē): The inhabited earth, world

Same word here

Genesis 1:1
HEB: הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
NAS: created the heavens and the earth.
KJV: the heaven and the earth.
INT: God the heavens the earth

1. a. earth, whole earth (opposed to a part) Genesis 18:18,25; Genesis 22:18 (= הָאֲדָמָה Genesis 12:3) Jeremiah 25:26,29,30; Jeremiah 26:6; Isaiah 37:16,20 = 2 Kings 19:15; 2 Kings 19:19; Zechariah 4:10; Zechariah 4:14 +.
 
Jul 24, 2016
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Does it say it will nbe with Jesus on earth? does it say that in Rev.20?
The return of Jesus and the battle of Armageddon is shown in Revelation 19.. In Chapter 20 it says::

(Revelation 20:4) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Now living points to Life and life points to life on earth because as we all know the meek shall inherit the Earth.. Later in chapter 20 at the end of the 1000 year these same Saints will be near Jerusalem..

(Revelation 20:7-9) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

So at the end of the 1000 years the Saints are not in heaven they are on earth and encamped around the Beloved City Jerusalem.. Since Jesus is reigning with them. That means both the Saints and Jesus are ruling over another set of people.. People on earth..

We can now go to The Old Testament prophecy of the same times.. The following shows the return of Jesus and the battle of Armageddon and it shows just how the LORD will cause the destruction of that army.. After that it reveals the rule of the 1000 year kingdom over the worlds peoples..

(Zechariah 14:12-21) "¶ And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. {13} And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. {14} And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. {15} And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

The Kingdom::: Where Jesus will rule with a Rod of Iron as shown in Revelation 19:

Zechariah 14{16} ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. {17} And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. {19} This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. {20} ¶ In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. {21} Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts."

Revelation 19 about Jesus ruling::
(Revelation 19:13-16) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."


Now Jesus will not be ruling over the resurrected Saints with a Rod of Iron but upon the normal people of the nations who survived the second coming of the LORD.. The Saints will be ruling over them also with the Lord Jesus.. These people again are mentioned in Zechariah 14:::

(Zechariah 14:16) "¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."
 
Dec 2, 2024
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Did you read the last part?



This text does not say Jerusalem and Judah, it says the Earth. Jerusalem represents God's people through all ages. Where else will this prophecy fit except after the second coming of Jesus?

[Jer 4:23-27 KJV] 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

This CAN'T be speaking to the Lords Day, nor the new heaven and earth that follow, as it conflicts with everything we are given as to what will take place during those times, so it can only be speaking to the past.


19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

We have heard that before...in Gen 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.


There is nothing new under the sun. There is a JERUSALEM now, there is a NEW JERUSALEM coming also. Would it be any stretch, if there was a 'past' age in which there were 'sons of God' and 'war' etc. and


Add to that Rev 12

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


For certain, this is GOD speaking to an age BEFORE this one when addressing Job
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


also, Peter gives us the same story...

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
 
The return of Jesus and the battle of Armageddon is shown in Revelation 19.. In Chapter 20 it says::

(Revelation 20:4) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Now living points to Life and life points to life on earth because as we all know the meek shall inherit the Earth.. Later in chapter 20 at the end of the 1000 year these same Saints will be near Jerusalem..

(Revelation 20:7-9) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

So at the end of the 1000 years the Saints are not in heaven they are on earth and encamped around the Beloved City Jerusalem.. Since Jesus is reigning with them. That means both the Saints and Jesus are ruling over another set of people.. People on earth..

We can now go to The Old Testament prophecy of the same times.. The following shows the return of Jesus and the battle of Armageddon and it shows just how the LORD will cause the destruction of that army.. After that it reveals the rule of the 1000 year kingdom over the worlds peoples..

(Zechariah 14:12-21) "¶ And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. {13} And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. {14} And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. {15} And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

The Kingdom::: Where Jesus will rule with a Rod of Iron as shown in Revelation 19:

Zechariah 14{16} ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. {17} And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. {18} And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. {19} This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. {20} ¶ In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. {21} Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts."

Revelation 19 about Jesus ruling::
(Revelation 19:13-16) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."


Now Jesus will not be ruling over the resurrected Saints with a Rod of Iron but upon the normal people of the nations who survived the second coming of the LORD.. The Saints will be ruling over them also with the Lord Jesus.. These people again are mentioned in Zechariah 14:::

(Zechariah 14:16) "¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."
.I and many others was taught these ideas at first, but That is not always what has been believed.
Let me ask a few questions to clarify what is at issue.
Describe the Rod of iron view, in your scheme.
How exactly does it work?
Do unsaved people have the ability to no longer sin?
If and when they sin, are they punished severely?
Do angels strike them down?

Do you get to fly to earthly Jerusalem with indwelling sin and ungodly thoughts and then go visit the Glorified , Pure. Creator, and just share a coffee together as he is aware of your sinful thoughts?
When we read these ideas in an end times study book the pieces are cobbled together and we do not question any of the ideas. The saints who were put to death and persecuted were told to "rest " with Jesus until other brothers who were still to be put to death were killed.
Do they reign with Christ since the 1st century?
The" Little Season" has been over 2000yrs already, so are you sure you want to stick to a wooden literal 1000yrs?
 
.I and many others was taught these ideas at first, but That is not always what has been believed.
Let me ask a few questions to clarify what is at issue.
Describe the Rod of iron view, in your scheme.
How exactly does it work?
Do unsaved people have the ability to no longer sin?
If and when they sin, are they punished severely?
Do angels strike them down?

Do you get to fly to earthly Jerusalem with indwelling sin and ungodly thoughts and then go visit the Glorified , Pure. Creator, and just share a coffee together as he is aware of your sinful thoughts?
When we read these ideas in an end times study book the pieces are cobbled together and we do not question any of the ideas. The saints who were put to death and persecuted were told to "rest " with Jesus until other brothers who were still to be put to death were killed.
Do they reign with Christ since the 1st century?
The" Little Season" has been over 2000yrs already, so are you sure you want to stick to a wooden literal 1000yrs?
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Are you going to say that this what not literally true, but the 1000yrs is?