Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
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Here's what two of the passages say (contrary to your notion):
Rev14 -
Rev 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 15 (a passage I quoted yesterday) -
Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
This latter verse (15:2) isn't saying they "received" the mark... It is showing that THEY DID NOT!
Neither did the "still-living" saints in 20:4a [/Dan7:22,27b] (end of trib)... These saints (20:4a) will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (never having DIED like the ones in 20:4b had... and why they [in 20:4b] are shown to be resurrected [same word used of Jesus in 2:8--"which was dead, and IS ALIVE"--That speaks to bodily resurrection, which is defined as "TO STAND AGAIN [on the earth]" after having been physically / bodily DEAD).
Why would Jesus mention the Rapture at that time?
The Church age did not begin until Pentecost.
Those were still Jews, not yet Christians.
And, mostly!
The Rapture was a mystery to the Jews, to be hidden until the right time for its unveiling!
Paul was raised up of God to reveal mysteries that had been hidden prior to the Church age!
Mysteries that were hidden!
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me:
It was a mystery that was hidden!
There would have been no mention of the Rapture in the Gospels! No mention in the OT!
It was a mystery that was to remain hidden until the right time.
See it now?
The Church age did not begin until Pentecost.
Those were still Jews, not yet Christians.
And, mostly!
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will
sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body
must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51-3
The Rapture was a mystery to the Jews, to be hidden until the right time for its unveiling!
Paul was raised up of God to reveal mysteries that had been hidden prior to the Church age!
Mysteries that were hidden!
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me:
to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone
the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who
created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom
of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.
Ephesians 3:8-10
It was a mystery that was hidden!
There would have been no mention of the Rapture in the Gospels! No mention in the OT!
It was a mystery that was to remain hidden until the right time.
See it now?
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The missing week is not commonly referred to as the Great Tribulation.
There is endless debate about the book of Daniel.
I would not take a missing week from Daniel and apply it to a period after the destruction
of the Temple and Jerusalem in AD 70.
John said the antichrist rules for 42 months and nothing about a seven year tribulation.
I cannot comprehend why you are basing an eschatology interpretation on a single verse in Daniel?
Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put
an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes
desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
There is endless debate about the book of Daniel.
I would not take a missing week from Daniel and apply it to a period after the destruction
of the Temple and Jerusalem in AD 70.
John said the antichrist rules for 42 months and nothing about a seven year tribulation.
I cannot comprehend why you are basing an eschatology interpretation on a single verse in Daniel?
Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put
an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes
desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
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For him to confirm a covenant it would indicate he had been already established as someone with such authority to begin with.
So, he would have to become fully activated quickly right after the Rapture. The Rapture removes God's restraining power against
the antichrist system. Its what presently keeps the mainstream biting its tongue in frustration.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,
we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by
the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—
asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you
in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness
is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over
everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple,
proclaiming himself to be God.
Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will
continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." (at the Rapture)
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
So, he would have to become fully activated quickly right after the Rapture. The Rapture removes God's restraining power against
the antichrist system. Its what presently keeps the mainstream biting its tongue in frustration.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,
we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by
the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—
asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you
in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness
is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over
everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple,
proclaiming himself to be God.
Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will
continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." (at the Rapture)
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
Right! 
Very true.
Also, the Daniel 9:24-27 "time-prophecy" is WRITTEN SEQUENTIALLY, so yes [!] the "70th Week" ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]") takes place SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the 70ad events. Which ALSO AGREES with the SEQUENCE ISSUES of the Olivet Discourse:
--"the beginning of birth PANGS" (i.e. the SEALS) take place SEQUENTIALLY *AFTER* the 70ad events (per the "timing" word in Lk21:12 "But BEFORE ALL THESE..."); And the "SEALS" take place in/during/within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) that precedes and LEADS UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19);
--which ^ corresponds ALSO with all other passages on this Subject
Bu this is exactly what the SEQUENCES ISSUES of not only the Olivet Discourse shows, but other sections of Scripture reflecting the SAME.
It is commonly thought, and oft-repeated (but MISTAKENLY so), that "the beginning of birth PANGS" PRECEDE and lead up to "the 70ad events" (and that this point in the chronology [70ad events] was their CULMINATION POINT). NO! Not so!
The wording in Luke 21:12 proves this fact... and other passages corroborate it.
Very true.
Also, the Daniel 9:24-27 "time-prophecy" is WRITTEN SEQUENTIALLY, so yes [!] the "70th Week" ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]") takes place SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the 70ad events. Which ALSO AGREES with the SEQUENCE ISSUES of the Olivet Discourse:
--"the beginning of birth PANGS" (i.e. the SEALS) take place SEQUENTIALLY *AFTER* the 70ad events (per the "timing" word in Lk21:12 "But BEFORE ALL THESE..."); And the "SEALS" take place in/during/within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) that precedes and LEADS UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19);
--which ^ corresponds ALSO with all other passages on this Subject
Bu this is exactly what the SEQUENCES ISSUES of not only the Olivet Discourse shows, but other sections of Scripture reflecting the SAME.
It is commonly thought, and oft-repeated (but MISTAKENLY so), that "the beginning of birth PANGS" PRECEDE and lead up to "the 70ad events" (and that this point in the chronology [70ad events] was their CULMINATION POINT). NO! Not so!
The wording in Luke 21:12 proves this fact... and other passages corroborate it.
Wild skepticism out there most generally leads its victims to irrational ends in their analysis. I've encountered a number of people who think the Lord will rule the Kingdom from afar...in Heaven, even though there is not one statement anywhere that portrays the Lord returning to Heaven after having come a second time, getting the blood of His enemies splattered upon His robe. I doubt He goes back to do His laundry, and rule the Millennial Kingdom from afar...with a rod of iron, of course.
MM
MM
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If you begin to interpret the word with the wrong foundation, or start with the wrong belief, you will come to the wrong conclusion.
The belief in literal Israel is wrong.
The word states clearly that we are one in Christ.
We are spiritual Israel if we believe in Jesus.
Literal Israel is a distraction that the devil invented years ago.
Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Roms 11...both are grafted into the same root.
John 8 ....if they truly were Abraham's seed they wouldn't be obeying the devil.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Roms 4 also....
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Col 3:11-12
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
It is clear from these verses that there is no elect group like Israel. We become the elect of God by faith. We can all be part of the elect spiritually.
If the nation of Israel are nothing today your whole doctrine falls to bits.
The belief in literal Israel is wrong.
The word states clearly that we are one in Christ.
We are spiritual Israel if we believe in Jesus.
Literal Israel is a distraction that the devil invented years ago.
Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Roms 11...both are grafted into the same root.
John 8 ....if they truly were Abraham's seed they wouldn't be obeying the devil.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Roms 4 also....
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Col 3:11-12
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
It is clear from these verses that there is no elect group like Israel. We become the elect of God by faith. We can all be part of the elect spiritually.
If the nation of Israel are nothing today your whole doctrine falls to bits.
Rightly dividing is the key
You base these doctrines on twisted views.
The church will not be here.... this is nice to believe but I find the bible verses used to support this are twisted...
God always reveals the truth in the examples from the past.
As it was in Noah's day.
In Noah's day those that were taken by the flood died. Those that were left in the ark went through the time of trouble.
In Egypt everyone went through the trouble but God's people were saved because of faith. The pass over.
We are told to be prepared for hard times
But by faith God's people will be singing hymns as they are killed or persecuted for Jesus.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Endureth = to suffer something difficult, unpleasant, or painful: 2. to continue to exist for a long time
All the examples I see in the bible show me how God helps His people to go through hard times not cause His people to disappear...
You base these doctrines on twisted views.
The church will not be here.... this is nice to believe but I find the bible verses used to support this are twisted...
God always reveals the truth in the examples from the past.
As it was in Noah's day.
In Noah's day those that were taken by the flood died. Those that were left in the ark went through the time of trouble.
In Egypt everyone went through the trouble but God's people were saved because of faith. The pass over.
We are told to be prepared for hard times
But by faith God's people will be singing hymns as they are killed or persecuted for Jesus.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Endureth = to suffer something difficult, unpleasant, or painful: 2. to continue to exist for a long time
All the examples I see in the bible show me how God helps His people to go through hard times not cause His people to disappear...
I think you have that back to front. God keeps His people out of the sphere of trouble and places them in the safe spaces. Noah was placed in the Ark and the rest went through trouble. Lot was removed from the sphere of destruction and allowed to find safety in the mountains. Rahab remained inside her home and kept out of the sphere of fighting.
In each case where the people of God were, there was no trouble, it was safe. The rapture fits God's M.O. perfectly.
In each case where the people of God were, there was no trouble, it was safe. The rapture fits God's M.O. perfectly.
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Chapters later, we still have living believers on earth...
There will still be believers!
Believers are the ones having the seal of God on their foreheads!
And, here! Revelation 11:13
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed.
Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth.
The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from
it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the
Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of
scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but
only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. .Rev 9:1-4
There will still be believers!
Believers are the ones having the seal of God on their foreheads!
And, here! Revelation 11:13
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed.
Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Romans 11:1-2, 16-18
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, ...
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
This shows to us that replacement theology is of the devil and his demons as a doctrine, along with all its ripple and cast-off theologies whereby people spiritualize scripture into such an unrecognizable mass of words that they relegate this into saying what it doesn't say to try and force scripture to conform to their cruddy, demonic theology of replacement. The Kingdom is coming, and physical Israel, the remnant, will be at the pinnacle of that Kingdom, with Christ upon the throne of David, as is written.
So, you are free to believe whatever you so wish, but I will stick to what is written without all the allegorical corruptions that men apply subjectively.
MM
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, ...
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
This shows to us that replacement theology is of the devil and his demons as a doctrine, along with all its ripple and cast-off theologies whereby people spiritualize scripture into such an unrecognizable mass of words that they relegate this into saying what it doesn't say to try and force scripture to conform to their cruddy, demonic theology of replacement. The Kingdom is coming, and physical Israel, the remnant, will be at the pinnacle of that Kingdom, with Christ upon the throne of David, as is written.
So, you are free to believe whatever you so wish, but I will stick to what is written without all the allegorical corruptions that men apply subjectively.
MM
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Devil invented it? Did he tell you he did?
Israel is God's chosen people.
The Church is a separate and different chosen people.
Different eternal purposes.
Today? It's the time of the Gentiles.
And, if one believes in Jesus Christ today?
They become a NEW creation in Christ. No longer Jew nor Gentile.
After the Rapture, who will evangelize the world? 144,000 JEWS!
Satan wants to kill off the Jews for that reason, and has been trying. Look at Nazi Germany, for example.
Satan wants you to hate Jews..... If all Jews can be eliminated, the return of Christ could not be fulfilled.
For Jesus could be shown to be fallible and a liar.
Satan... walks free!
Don't be a sucker!
Israel is God's chosen people.
The Church is a separate and different chosen people.
Different eternal purposes.
Today? It's the time of the Gentiles.
And, if one believes in Jesus Christ today?
They become a NEW creation in Christ. No longer Jew nor Gentile.
After the Rapture, who will evangelize the world? 144,000 JEWS!
Satan wants to kill off the Jews for that reason, and has been trying. Look at Nazi Germany, for example.
Satan wants you to hate Jews..... If all Jews can be eliminated, the return of Christ could not be fulfilled.
For Jesus could be shown to be fallible and a liar.
Satan... walks free!
Don't be a sucker!
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