Problem with the rainbow.
-->Dan58 : “It didn't rain on earth until the flood, so rainbows didn't exist until afterwards. "For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth" (Genesis 2:5)”.
But this is wrong because if your read both verses 4 and 5 it says that no plant had yet sprung because it did not rain yet so this implies that plant couldn’t have grown without rain. Therefore rain existed before Noah because there were plants at Noah’s time.
So again how come before the flood there were no rainbows when you have sunlight, rain refraction of light?
“Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground.” (Genesis 2:4-5)
Problem with the creation.
-->Dan58 : “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the 6 day creation began long after that. The big bang is just a theory, science says that from nothing, nothing comes. So what caused this alleged 'bang'?”
Let’s forget about the Big Bang being only a theory. Let me point to something you didn’t
address:
In the bible clearly says God made the light and after then the sun, moon and stars.
I think everyone here can accept that lights comes from out star, the sun and that this is a fact not just a theory .
So then how can their be light without the sun?
"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good,
and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness
he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."(Genesis 1:3)
“Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them
serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault
of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater
light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."(Genesis 1:14-16)
Hell is a place of eternal torment and torture.
-->Dan58 : “No where does it say that hell is eternal torture.”
But this is wrong.
Bible tells us that if man does not confesses his sins and ask for forgiveness during his life on Earth there will be consequences after death meaning spending an eternity in hell a place of eternal torture and torment together with devil and his fallen angels. The only salvation comes through Jesus Christ. Let’s look at some verse:
“23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
“6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. “(John 14:6)
”9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. “(1 John 1:9)
Hell is a place of torment also for the devil and his fallen angels :
"10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."(Revelation 20:10)
Hell is a place of torment for wicked men:
"10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” "(Revelation 14:10-11)
"41“Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me
,you who are curse, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"(Matthew 24:41)
[h=1]Punishment that goes on forever:
"46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” "(Matthew 25:46)[/h] Hell is a place of darkness reserved, not annihilation:
"13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever."(Jude 13)
Hell is banishment away from God's presence:
“9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
[h=1]Hell is a place of great torment:
"50 and throw them into the blazing furnace,where will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:50)[/h][h=1]Unquenchable Fire:
"43 If your hand cause you to stumble, cut it of. It is better for you to enter life maimed then with two hands to go to hell, where the fire never goes out."(Mark 9:43) [/h][h=1]“48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ “(Mark 9:48)[/h]As we can see hell is indeed a place of eternal torment and torture.
So again how can all loving God in his infinite wisdom, mercy punish his beloved children so infinitely severe for sins committed in a finite life?
Revelation of God.
-->Chester: “If what is said in Romans 1:19-23 (see Post #38 by Tonyjay) is true, then all peoples at a deep level know the truth about there being one almighty powerful God. but though they have known this truth, they go out and worship the sun, moon, and other gods anyway. So if Romans 1:19-23 is true, then your example given above is invalid because it could not happen. Or, yes, it could happen as you tell it, but the person who would live this way would know that he is not following what at a deeper level he knows is truth.”
I don’t agree with you .Let’s look at the verses from Romans:
“19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. (Romans 1:19-23)”.
Something that is invisible to someone can’t be plain, easy to perceive or understand by that someone. Many atheists didn’t choose to ignore the voice in their minds and hearts that told them a God exists, they maybe didn’t heard it. Some of them they maybe look for an outer being with their hearts and minds all their life but failed in their quest .So how come
an all loving God in his infinite wisdom, mercy punish them to an eternity of torment in hell?
An don’t tell that every person that lived so far had discovered the truth in their heart and mind and that the majority of them chose to ignore this because they wanted to be sinful. That’s absurd. Why would you choose to ignore if you knew that there is an all powerful being that created you, the universe and not be interested, curious, eager to have some sort of relationship with the most important being in the universe ? It also absurd to assume that billions of people would do such a thing.
[h=1] -->Tintin:” Someone has a warped perspective of so-called prehistoric times! Every known ancient pagan culture at some point practiced human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. So your morally upright pagan is a piece of fiction cooked up by secular humanists. Besides all of humanity knew the one true God before the tower of Babel dispersion, most just chose to ignore Him and do their own thing.”[/h]How can you judge ancient people choice to do human sacrifices to their gods when God of the bible condoned such practices
.First let’s look at Abraham who was asked by God to sacrifice his son. He accepts and as he is about to kill his son God changes his mind and stops him. Even though he didn’t kill his son, all being a test, how would an all loving God in his infinite wisdom would ask someone to kill his most beloved and only son ?
“Abraham Tested 22 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. 2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”” (Genesis 22:1-2)
“12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:12)
Secondly , let’s look at the story of Jephthah who asks God the help to defeat the Ammonites and in return he offers as human sacrifice the first who will greet him when he returns home. God helps him defeat them. He then goes home.The one who comes out to meet him was his virgin daughter. Then he sacrificed her to God.
“Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter.35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.” …
39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.”
(Judges 11:28-34,39)
Why would an all loving God accept Jephthah offer off human sacrifice in exchange for help?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about these other issues? No thoughts?
At least one infant or young child was killed in the flood.
Infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment?
The Bible does indicate that children are innocent, for example, when
describing how some of the Israelites in the Valley of Benhinnom had become corrupt so as
to sacrifice their own (innocent) children:
"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;" (Jeremiah 19:4-5)
There you have an analogy between corrupt men and infants who are innocent.
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)"
The Bible clearly indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack
of ability to discern between good and evil, they are no capable of making moral choices.
So they are morally correct in the eyes of God.
Let’s see what righteous means = morally right or justifiable, good, virtuous, upstanding, worthy.
As we can see children are not corrupted but innocent, righteous and blameless in eyes of God.
"9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and
Japheth.11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6:9)
There you have an analogy between corrupt men and Noah who is righteous and blameless.
So again i ask how come God didn't saved all the babies or young children but he did Noah ?
Concept of free will and the story of Noah
Man can choose not to serve the God of the bible , so this implies he does have free will.
[SUP] “[/SUP]15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:15)”
Because man has free will that means he can do as he wishes during his life: he can choose to be a force of good or a force of evil in this world, to love God, hate him or just ignore him, to avoid sin or embracing it.
God then comes and kills all humans except for Noah and his family for their being too corrupt, violent, and evil. This goes in contradictions of the concept of free will, because if men really had free then God shouldn’t had destroyed them for their choices before death. So how come that he did?
”12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. “(Genesis 6:12-13)
The impossible quest of Noah.
"Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.”(Genesis 7:2-4)
Here clearly God says that seven days from that moment he made the statement :go and take the land animals, the flood will come. Noah had to go ~11,000 km to Australia to get kangaroos or ~10,000 km to North America to get grizzly bears or ~5,000 km to China to get a panda bear and so on. So again how come Noah managed to cover hundreds of thousand of km to collect all the animals in just few days(or even few years)from every corner of the Earth?
-->Dan58 : “It didn't rain on earth until the flood, so rainbows didn't exist until afterwards. "For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth" (Genesis 2:5)”.
But this is wrong because if your read both verses 4 and 5 it says that no plant had yet sprung because it did not rain yet so this implies that plant couldn’t have grown without rain. Therefore rain existed before Noah because there were plants at Noah’s time.
So again how come before the flood there were no rainbows when you have sunlight, rain refraction of light?
“Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground.” (Genesis 2:4-5)
Problem with the creation.
-->Dan58 : “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the 6 day creation began long after that. The big bang is just a theory, science says that from nothing, nothing comes. So what caused this alleged 'bang'?”
Let’s forget about the Big Bang being only a theory. Let me point to something you didn’t
address:
In the bible clearly says God made the light and after then the sun, moon and stars.
I think everyone here can accept that lights comes from out star, the sun and that this is a fact not just a theory .
So then how can their be light without the sun?
"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good,
and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness
he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."(Genesis 1:3)
“Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them
serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault
of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater
light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."(Genesis 1:14-16)
Hell is a place of eternal torment and torture.
-->Dan58 : “No where does it say that hell is eternal torture.”
But this is wrong.
Bible tells us that if man does not confesses his sins and ask for forgiveness during his life on Earth there will be consequences after death meaning spending an eternity in hell a place of eternal torture and torment together with devil and his fallen angels. The only salvation comes through Jesus Christ. Let’s look at some verse:
“23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
“6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. “(John 14:6)
”9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. “(1 John 1:9)
Hell is a place of torment also for the devil and his fallen angels :
"10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."(Revelation 20:10)
Hell is a place of torment for wicked men:
"10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” "(Revelation 14:10-11)
"41“Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me
,you who are curse, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"(Matthew 24:41)
[h=1]Punishment that goes on forever:
"46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” "(Matthew 25:46)[/h] Hell is a place of darkness reserved, not annihilation:
"13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever."(Jude 13)
Hell is banishment away from God's presence:
“9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
[h=1]Hell is a place of great torment:
"50 and throw them into the blazing furnace,where will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 13:50)[/h][h=1]Unquenchable Fire:
"43 If your hand cause you to stumble, cut it of. It is better for you to enter life maimed then with two hands to go to hell, where the fire never goes out."(Mark 9:43) [/h][h=1]“48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ “(Mark 9:48)[/h]As we can see hell is indeed a place of eternal torment and torture.
So again how can all loving God in his infinite wisdom, mercy punish his beloved children so infinitely severe for sins committed in a finite life?
Revelation of God.
-->Chester: “If what is said in Romans 1:19-23 (see Post #38 by Tonyjay) is true, then all peoples at a deep level know the truth about there being one almighty powerful God. but though they have known this truth, they go out and worship the sun, moon, and other gods anyway. So if Romans 1:19-23 is true, then your example given above is invalid because it could not happen. Or, yes, it could happen as you tell it, but the person who would live this way would know that he is not following what at a deeper level he knows is truth.”
I don’t agree with you .Let’s look at the verses from Romans:
“19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. (Romans 1:19-23)”.
Something that is invisible to someone can’t be plain, easy to perceive or understand by that someone. Many atheists didn’t choose to ignore the voice in their minds and hearts that told them a God exists, they maybe didn’t heard it. Some of them they maybe look for an outer being with their hearts and minds all their life but failed in their quest .So how come
an all loving God in his infinite wisdom, mercy punish them to an eternity of torment in hell?
An don’t tell that every person that lived so far had discovered the truth in their heart and mind and that the majority of them chose to ignore this because they wanted to be sinful. That’s absurd. Why would you choose to ignore if you knew that there is an all powerful being that created you, the universe and not be interested, curious, eager to have some sort of relationship with the most important being in the universe ? It also absurd to assume that billions of people would do such a thing.
[h=1] -->Tintin:” Someone has a warped perspective of so-called prehistoric times! Every known ancient pagan culture at some point practiced human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. So your morally upright pagan is a piece of fiction cooked up by secular humanists. Besides all of humanity knew the one true God before the tower of Babel dispersion, most just chose to ignore Him and do their own thing.”[/h]How can you judge ancient people choice to do human sacrifices to their gods when God of the bible condoned such practices
.First let’s look at Abraham who was asked by God to sacrifice his son. He accepts and as he is about to kill his son God changes his mind and stops him. Even though he didn’t kill his son, all being a test, how would an all loving God in his infinite wisdom would ask someone to kill his most beloved and only son ?
“Abraham Tested 22 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. 2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”” (Genesis 22:1-2)
“12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:12)
Secondly , let’s look at the story of Jephthah who asks God the help to defeat the Ammonites and in return he offers as human sacrifice the first who will greet him when he returns home. God helps him defeat them. He then goes home.The one who comes out to meet him was his virgin daughter. Then he sacrificed her to God.
“Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter.35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.” …
39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.”
(Judges 11:28-34,39)
Why would an all loving God accept Jephthah offer off human sacrifice in exchange for help?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about these other issues? No thoughts?
At least one infant or young child was killed in the flood.
Infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment?
The Bible does indicate that children are innocent, for example, when
describing how some of the Israelites in the Valley of Benhinnom had become corrupt so as
to sacrifice their own (innocent) children:
"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;" (Jeremiah 19:4-5)
There you have an analogy between corrupt men and infants who are innocent.
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)"
The Bible clearly indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack
of ability to discern between good and evil, they are no capable of making moral choices.
So they are morally correct in the eyes of God.
Let’s see what righteous means = morally right or justifiable, good, virtuous, upstanding, worthy.
As we can see children are not corrupted but innocent, righteous and blameless in eyes of God.
"9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and
Japheth.11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6:9)
There you have an analogy between corrupt men and Noah who is righteous and blameless.
So again i ask how come God didn't saved all the babies or young children but he did Noah ?
Concept of free will and the story of Noah
Man can choose not to serve the God of the bible , so this implies he does have free will.
[SUP] “[/SUP]15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:15)”
Because man has free will that means he can do as he wishes during his life: he can choose to be a force of good or a force of evil in this world, to love God, hate him or just ignore him, to avoid sin or embracing it.
God then comes and kills all humans except for Noah and his family for their being too corrupt, violent, and evil. This goes in contradictions of the concept of free will, because if men really had free then God shouldn’t had destroyed them for their choices before death. So how come that he did?
”12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. “(Genesis 6:12-13)
The impossible quest of Noah.
"Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.”(Genesis 7:2-4)
Here clearly God says that seven days from that moment he made the statement :go and take the land animals, the flood will come. Noah had to go ~11,000 km to Australia to get kangaroos or ~10,000 km to North America to get grizzly bears or ~5,000 km to China to get a panda bear and so on. So again how come Noah managed to cover hundreds of thousand of km to collect all the animals in just few days(or even few years)from every corner of the Earth?
. Sounds like you've hooked into one of those "Bible Skeptics" sites and its causing you to doubt? Nothing wrong with questioning what you believe, but try relaying one or two questions at a time, otherwise you overwhelm others. 
but nevermind that for everyone has its own story to tell and about those unbelievers