alexxcjRO I am sorry you are blinded to the truth, this is satan deceiving you. I too was once as blind as you, I will pray for you.
Questions about the bible !
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-->Flsnookman7:" I am sorry you are blinded to the truth, this is satan deceiving you. I too was once as blind as you, I will pray for you."
So what are you saying is Satan has power over me , he has blinded me so i can't understand.So by your logic the blame for not believing in the truth of the bible transfers from me to him .So i will not be going to hell then.
So what are you saying is Satan has power over me , he has blinded me so i can't understand.So by your logic the blame for not believing in the truth of the bible transfers from me to him .So i will not be going to hell then.
It is my hope and prayer that you can avoid hell altogether. If you are not saved then you are carnal, God is spiritual. You have zero chance of comprehending the spiritual. However you know about God so now you can choose, eternity with Him or eternity separated from Him. I pray you choose to have faith in the truth.
as it is written:read:
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25*The woman said to him, I know that Messias comes, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26*Jesus said to her, I that speak to you am he.
27*And on this came his disciples, and marveled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seek you? or, Why talk you with her?
28*The woman then left her water pot, and went her way into the city, and said to the men,
29*Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
30*Then they went out of the city, and came to him.
31*In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
32*But he said to them, I have meat to eat that you know not of.
33*Therefore said the disciples one to another, Has any man brought him ought to eat?
34*Jesus said to them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
:ty:
godbless us all always
It depends on YOUR definition of hell, haha. Preachers preaching that bad people will burn and suffer for all eternity in a hell is based upon an interpretation of scripture, this interpretation of hell is not based on provable facts or absolute certainty.
Here are my thoughts on this matter. For starters there could of been many babies, infants, children destroyed in the flood waters.
Of course the very young are incapable of understanding many things, for example they have to be taught what is right or what is wrong or what is good or what is bad. So, therefore the responsibility of the welfare or wellbeing of the very young is entirely upon the parents or gaurdians of those babies, children or very young ones.
If God gives the parent or gaurdian a warning of appraoching imminent calamity who is responsible for making sure those babies and young ones or children are protected from this? it is my opinion that the parents or gaurdians are solely responsible for their lives or their deaths, so i belive it was the parents who took their children to their deaths because they chose to ignore God's warning. And if you observe what the Bible is telling the reader is that once again God will execute His judgement on this bad world. All of us are given a fair chance to do something about it and the very young ones will have only their parents, it is the responsiblity of the parents/gaurdians to save their offspring not God's. That is how I see things, and I think I have been fair about it. Your choice the same as it is my choice as an adult and capable of understanding such things, but the very young have only their parents or gaurdians.
Oh, and i f you think that is difficult to take, please check out the amalakites scenario, they th people back in those days didn't have guns or bombs or modern weapons, and this was a direct command from God.
You gotta be made of stronger stuff, one can love and one can stand strong in the face of adversity, oh, and no over stated political correction allowed, cheers my dears.
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as it is written:read:
1 Corinthians 2:14
Now the natural man does not receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 14:10
There are, it may be, so many kinds of sounds in the world, and none is without meaning.
:ty:
godbless us all always
-->kedge "Here are my thoughts on this matter. For starters there could of been many babies, infants, children destroyed in the flood waters.
Of course the very young are incapable of understanding many things, for example they have to be taught what is right or what is wrong or what is good or what is bad. So, therefore the responsibility of the welfare or wellbeing of the very young is entirely upon the parents or gaurdians of those babies, children or very young ones.
If God gives the parent or gaurdian a warning of appraoching imminent calamity who is responsible for making sure those babies and young ones or children are protected from this? it is my opinion that the parents or gaurdians are solely responsible for their lives or their deaths, so i belive it was the parents who took their children to their deaths because they chose to ignore God's warning. And if you observe what the Bible is telling the reader is that once again God will execute His judgement on this bad world. All of us are given a fair chance to do something about it and the very young ones will have only their parents, it is the responsiblity of the parents/gaurdians to save their offspring not God's. That is how I see things, and I think I have been fair about it. Your choice the same as it is my choice as an adult and capable of understanding such things, but the very young have only their parents or gaurdians.
Oh, and i f you think that is difficult to take, please check out the amalakites scenario, they th people back in those days didn't have guns or bombs or modern weapons, and this was a direct command from God.
You gotta be made of stronger stuff, one can love and one can stand strong in the face of adversity, oh, and no over stated political correction allowed, cheers my dears."
"9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. 11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6:9)
Are you deliberately ignoring what i said and demonstrated or are you not understanding ?
God said that all people were corrupt except Noah and his family who were righteous .So these leads to the fact they were saved only because they were righteous in the eyes of God.There only two possible cases:
1.Small children weren't saved because they weren't righteous, but these goes in contradiction with what later the bible says about small children.
2.Small children are righteous in the eyes of God like Noah so because this was the criteria by which one was saved or not they should have been saved, but we see that is not the case.
The statements : "Small children are righteous " and "God chose to saved only the righteous people during the flood, but at least one small children died in the flood" are logically impossible to be true at the same time.
Observation :
1.Both Noah and the small children if they died both would have gone to Heaven.
2.God being all powerful could have teleported the children to the ark and take care of them like he did with the animals.
So how come that the story happened the way it did ?
Of course the very young are incapable of understanding many things, for example they have to be taught what is right or what is wrong or what is good or what is bad. So, therefore the responsibility of the welfare or wellbeing of the very young is entirely upon the parents or gaurdians of those babies, children or very young ones.
If God gives the parent or gaurdian a warning of appraoching imminent calamity who is responsible for making sure those babies and young ones or children are protected from this? it is my opinion that the parents or gaurdians are solely responsible for their lives or their deaths, so i belive it was the parents who took their children to their deaths because they chose to ignore God's warning. And if you observe what the Bible is telling the reader is that once again God will execute His judgement on this bad world. All of us are given a fair chance to do something about it and the very young ones will have only their parents, it is the responsiblity of the parents/gaurdians to save their offspring not God's. That is how I see things, and I think I have been fair about it. Your choice the same as it is my choice as an adult and capable of understanding such things, but the very young have only their parents or gaurdians.
Oh, and i f you think that is difficult to take, please check out the amalakites scenario, they th people back in those days didn't have guns or bombs or modern weapons, and this was a direct command from God.
You gotta be made of stronger stuff, one can love and one can stand strong in the face of adversity, oh, and no over stated political correction allowed, cheers my dears."
"9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. 11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6:9)
Are you deliberately ignoring what i said and demonstrated or are you not understanding ?
God said that all people were corrupt except Noah and his family who were righteous .So these leads to the fact they were saved only because they were righteous in the eyes of God.There only two possible cases:
1.Small children weren't saved because they weren't righteous, but these goes in contradiction with what later the bible says about small children.
2.Small children are righteous in the eyes of God like Noah so because this was the criteria by which one was saved or not they should have been saved, but we see that is not the case.
The statements : "Small children are righteous " and "God chose to saved only the righteous people during the flood, but at least one small children died in the flood" are logically impossible to be true at the same time.
Observation :
1.Both Noah and the small children if they died both would have gone to Heaven.
2.God being all powerful could have teleported the children to the ark and take care of them like he did with the animals.
So how come that the story happened the way it did ?
This is the way I see things, If I myself or anyone does not like the way God does things then go eat the dust of the ground all your days until you expire and return to the dust that human flesh was created from in the beginning.
Yeah, all except 8 were ungodly.
That's how I see it so I agree.
Yeah, you're looking at things from mankinds perspective, you're just simply trying to appease yourself, you want to see what you want to see, I would advise anyone to look closer and with an honest heart.
The very young were not saved because their parents ignored God's warning.
If one looks for a contradiction one might find a contradiction, but many know full well how to take something out of context.
It appears that Noah and his wife, their three sons and their wives did not have any babies or very young one's until perhaps after the flood waters had receded and there was dry land to make settlements.
Where did God say this in the timeframe of noah?YOU nor I are the Almighty Judge, again, if anyone or I myself for that matter does not like the way God does things then go eat the dust of the ground all your days.
Those events took place because God is the Almighty ruler and Judge over the entire universe.
If you trace this thread back, you said "I was wrong" when I insisted that the Biblical text does not demand that Noah had to go physically to China, Australia, etc. to get the animals and food. You have still not satisfactorily (at least to me) proven that the text demands that Noah did this.
I did indeed give some suggestions for how it might have happened. "Teleporting" the animals as you say! These are only theories that I cannot prove. I am not going to insist I am right about these ideas. But what I do insist on is that the Biblical text does not demand that Noah had to physically have gone to all of these locations.
I smile a bit at the list of "crazy" solutions to problems that you have gathered from responses to your questions. I agree some of them are a bit fanciful. But then others may see my "teleporting" idea as pretty strange as well.
You wonder later why God does not do such things anymore? Well, God is still doing miracles in our world today. I could give you a list of some first-hand miracles I and people I know have experienced (of which some to you would fit into the fanciful category.) I think one misconception people have is that miracles were constantly happening to all Bible characters. For the most part in Biblical history there were long periods of faithfulness with only a miracle now and then. Example: In the life of Daniel there were fantastic miracles (the lions' den, the fiery furnace rescue), but there were long periods in Daniel's life when no miracles were recorded.
Also, perhaps I am misunderstanding your approach: above you suggest you are taking the approach that the Bible is neither true nor false -- and then looking at the evidence to see if you find it be true.
At the beginning of the original post you said: "I had believe 10 years that the Bible is true . Now i am not so sure . Here are some of the problems that i found:" From that basis I have been trying to defend the truth of the Bible from the assumption that I take it to be true and that I assume God is real.
Are you asking me to prove that my assumption that the Bible is true (and that God is real) is a valid assumption? If so, then I need to use a different approach. Defending and explaining Scripture won't work if we are not assuming that Scripture is true.
Proving that the Christian religion is the only correct religion would take a different approach than I have been here. For lack of time, I just can't start down that approach right now, though you ask some very valid and applicable questions about this.
One interesting about the following paragraphing is that I read it and say - "Amen, that is right! At least to a lot of it: The Bible has fantastic tales - I love to serve a God that can and does do supernatural things! God does not have to abide by the laws of physics and it is surely true that my God is not bound by science. But this God is the "reality" that I live in every day. The omnipotent God who created all the universe and who authored the laws of physics is my friend and I walk and communicate with Him every day. That is my reality every day!
"The conclusion is that the bible is a collection of fantastic, supranatural tales, that has no common ground with our science, our universe laws of physics and our reality. A universe so different from ours it seems out of these world. A place where God talks directly to people and helps then conquer cities, kill their enemies, give them food out of thin air ; a place where you see fantastic things and clear proofs of God: talking burning bush, rivers that turn into blood, sticks that turn into snakes, people that turn into salt, seas that depart, teleportation, angels that walk visible among people and talk to them, people that are fireproof, people strong like the mythical figure Hercules, giants 9feet tall and so on."
Please do remember, though, that most of the Bible is everyday conversation and life of normal people. Yes, there are miracles and supernatural things, but there is also much more!
"If a finite human can't presume to say how should or would God act,behave ; you by being like me a finite human how can you say how should or would God act?"
Ha! I like your wit and thinking here! I think I get your point. But I think we were doing two different things:
You were using a rhetorical question to try to push God into having made a mistake. I have just suggested some things that God might have done. But I get your point! Good comeback!
-->Kedge:“The very young were not saved because their parents ignored God's warning.”
Your making a wrong assumption. God only warned Noah and he’s family because God said they were the only one righteous. Where does it says in the bible that God warned someone else except Noah and his family?
Can you show me ?
“then go eat the dust of the ground all your days until you expire and return to the dust that human flesh was created from in the beginning”
Why are so you aggressive ? Can’t we have an honest debate like intelligent people I think we are ?
Cognitive dissonance must have hit you very hard. Still you should have control yourself.
->>Chester:
“You have still not satisfactorily (at least to me) proven that the text demands that Noah did this. “
[SUP]“[/SUP][SUP]21 [/SUP]You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Noah did everything just as God commanded him.”(Genesis 6:21-22)”
From this verses the only logical possibilities are :
1.Noah went and brought the food himself but this is impossible .
2.God brought the food through some supranatural act the food to the ark. May that be through teleportation or just creating it out of thin air .
There can’t other explanation .
“I smile a bit at the list of "crazy" solutions to problems that you have gathered from responses to your questions. I agree some of them are a bit fanciful. But then others may see my "teleporting" idea as pretty strange as well. “
When you believe in this all powerful and all the other supranatural events in the bible ,
how are you finding my solutions crazy or strange ?
“At the beginning of the original post you said: "I had believe 10 years that the Bible is true . Now i am not so sure . “
I told the truth .For 10 years I believed the bible is true. I never question it. I saw a debate about the bible and started thinking about the arguments brought against it and trying to refute them . But I couldn’t .So i said my approach is not good and correct .So I change it by saying that the bible is nor true or false . And started to analyze different stories and concepts. In a few months I founded more then 20 issues. I talked to many people about these issues ,but nobody gave me proper explanations .The majority of these people(even my own family) got angry and hostile and call me an atheist or that the satan is working through me. It is also hard to argue with people about these issues because there are many
kinds of bibles and many kinds of Christian beliefs ,many contrary beliefs about different concepts :forever conscious torment in hell/annihilation, the salvation can be lost /the salvation can’t be lost, creation in the bible according with the science findings/ or not , the things in story of the flood have scientific explanations/it is just a supranatural event with supranatural explanations and so on.
The conclusions I got so far are:
Logical truths about the bible :
1.The story of creation and the story of Noah are supranational events that can’t be explain with science.
2.The salvation of Jesus Christ can’t be lost , if someone is turning away from the faith wasn’t saved in the first place.
3.Hell /or lake of fire is a place of eternal torment where those who are not saved wind up to.
Irregularities and contradictions:
- “Small children are righteous " and "God chose to saved only the righteous people during the flood, but at least one small child died in the flood" .
-“Go has given man free will; so he can sin as much as he wants to or not during his life on earth” and “God kill all the men (except Noah and his family) for they sinned to much in their life on earth”.
-“God is all loving “ and “God chose to create a world in which majority of the people of that world end up suffering for eternity in torment “
-“God justice is perfect and his wisdom is infinite” and “God chose to create system of justice that can lead in theory to a possible scenario in which Heaven can be packed with millions of psychopaths and murderers while Hell can be packed with millions of people like Gandhi”
-God is all powerful and constant in thinking across time , his wisdom and justice is perfect”
and “God created 3 types of law by which men are judged through out human history”
These pair of statements are logically impossible to be true at the same time in my opinion.
Your making a wrong assumption. God only warned Noah and he’s family because God said they were the only one righteous. Where does it says in the bible that God warned someone else except Noah and his family?
Can you show me ?
“then go eat the dust of the ground all your days until you expire and return to the dust that human flesh was created from in the beginning”
Why are so you aggressive ? Can’t we have an honest debate like intelligent people I think we are ?
Cognitive dissonance must have hit you very hard. Still you should have control yourself.
->>Chester:
“You have still not satisfactorily (at least to me) proven that the text demands that Noah did this. “
[SUP]“[/SUP][SUP]21 [/SUP]You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Noah did everything just as God commanded him.”(Genesis 6:21-22)”
From this verses the only logical possibilities are :
1.Noah went and brought the food himself but this is impossible .
2.God brought the food through some supranatural act the food to the ark. May that be through teleportation or just creating it out of thin air .
There can’t other explanation .
“I smile a bit at the list of "crazy" solutions to problems that you have gathered from responses to your questions. I agree some of them are a bit fanciful. But then others may see my "teleporting" idea as pretty strange as well. “
When you believe in this all powerful and all the other supranatural events in the bible ,
how are you finding my solutions crazy or strange ?
“At the beginning of the original post you said: "I had believe 10 years that the Bible is true . Now i am not so sure . “
I told the truth .For 10 years I believed the bible is true. I never question it. I saw a debate about the bible and started thinking about the arguments brought against it and trying to refute them . But I couldn’t .So i said my approach is not good and correct .So I change it by saying that the bible is nor true or false . And started to analyze different stories and concepts. In a few months I founded more then 20 issues. I talked to many people about these issues ,but nobody gave me proper explanations .The majority of these people(even my own family) got angry and hostile and call me an atheist or that the satan is working through me. It is also hard to argue with people about these issues because there are many
kinds of bibles and many kinds of Christian beliefs ,many contrary beliefs about different concepts :forever conscious torment in hell/annihilation, the salvation can be lost /the salvation can’t be lost, creation in the bible according with the science findings/ or not , the things in story of the flood have scientific explanations/it is just a supranatural event with supranatural explanations and so on.
The conclusions I got so far are:
Logical truths about the bible :
1.The story of creation and the story of Noah are supranational events that can’t be explain with science.
2.The salvation of Jesus Christ can’t be lost , if someone is turning away from the faith wasn’t saved in the first place.
3.Hell /or lake of fire is a place of eternal torment where those who are not saved wind up to.
Irregularities and contradictions:
- “Small children are righteous " and "God chose to saved only the righteous people during the flood, but at least one small child died in the flood" .
-“Go has given man free will; so he can sin as much as he wants to or not during his life on earth” and “God kill all the men (except Noah and his family) for they sinned to much in their life on earth”.
-“God is all loving “ and “God chose to create a world in which majority of the people of that world end up suffering for eternity in torment “
-“God justice is perfect and his wisdom is infinite” and “God chose to create system of justice that can lead in theory to a possible scenario in which Heaven can be packed with millions of psychopaths and murderers while Hell can be packed with millions of people like Gandhi”
-God is all powerful and constant in thinking across time , his wisdom and justice is perfect”
and “God created 3 types of law by which men are judged through out human history”
These pair of statements are logically impossible to be true at the same time in my opinion.
as it is written :read:
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this you shall both save yourself, and them that hear you.
:ty:
godbless us all always
You wrote a well thought out post here. I will try to give an equally well thought through response, but my day today has no spare time, so it will have to wait until Saturday or Sunday.
I'm not aggressive, I have come across people like you in the past, all your questions have been answered by many in the past, get off your lazy backside and do some better research. I can not be bothered to discuss the same old things over and over and over with fools like you. This website has many many false Christians, you can get into a discussion like the one about 'Jesus Christ is not God' but the minute you touch on a subject that they don't like and you bring them into question they will shut you down simply because of their cowardice.
this is one of many reasonswhy our lord jesus christ the only begotten son of god died on the cross
:read:
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52*In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53*For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54*So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying c that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
... . and the truth of this is
not all humans shall taste death
:read:
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15*For this we say unto you by the word b of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16*For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17*Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18*Wherefore comfort one another with these words. c
. ... remember always
:read:
John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and all of you believe not, how shall all of you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
:ty:
godbless us all always
alexxcjRO: "When you believe in this all powerful and all the other supranatural events in the bible ,
how are you finding my solutions crazy or strange ?"
I guess the difference is that I believe that God is an all-powerful, all-loving God. That is my foundation. And hence the supernatural events of the Bible don't surprise me at all or seem strange at all. I am not sure which you mean by "my crazy and strange solutions"- ? I am guessing you mean suggestions you made that leave God out or deny his existence, etc. So I don't think I would say your solutions are "strange or crazy", but I will argue against anything that does not agree with the Bible.
"I told the truth .For 10 years I believed the bible is true. I never question it. I saw a debate about the bible and started thinking about the arguments brought against it and trying to refute them . But I couldn’t .So i said my approach is not good and correct .So I change it by saying that the bible is nor true or false . And started to analyze different stories and concepts. In a few months I founded more then 20 issues. I talked to many people about these issues ,but nobody gave me proper explanations .The majority of these people(even my own family) got angry and hostile and call me an atheist or that the satan is working through me. It is also hard to argue with people about these issues because there are many
kinds of bibles and many kinds of Christian beliefs ,many contrary beliefs about different concepts :forever conscious torment in hell/annihilation, the salvation can be lost /the salvation can’t be lost, creation in the bible according with the science findings/ or not , the things in story of the flood have scientific explanations/it is just a supranatural event with supranatural explanations and so on. "
I am very OK with you asking questions. And I think we need to ask questions and not just be spoonfed all our lives. Too many Christians sit in their highchair all their lives and let the "preacher" spoonfeed them!
Now if you don't mind questions: I will ask a few questions below and make a few comments:
"1.The story of creation and the story of Noah are supranational events that can’t be explain with science."
I basically agree, but your statement seems to infer that science is the measuring stick! I have no problem "explaining the story of Creation and the story of Noah". Modern day science with its emphasis on evolution is "unexplainable' in my eyes!
"2.The salvation of Jesus Christ can’t be lost , if someone is turning away from the faith wasn’t saved in the first place."
?? Christians don't agree on this one! ?? I would not state this the way you have it here.
"3.Hell /or lake of fire is a place of eternal torment where those who are not saved wind up to."
Yes, I agree.
"Irregularities and contradictions:
- “Small children are righteous " and "God chose to saved only the righteous people during the flood, but at least one small child died in the flood" ."
Where do you get that small children are "righteous"? And what do you mean by this? (I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I am not sure I like the term "righteous" for little children. I would say that children are "innocent" or "safe", and God chose to save only the adults who believed in Him. And of course children died in the flood. Children are dying every day all over the world.
"-“Go has given man free will; so he can sin as much as he wants to or not during his life on earth” and “God kill all the men (except Noah and his family) for they sinned to much in their life on earth”.
Again, the foundation I approach the question from makes it a "non-issue". God is directly or indirectly responsible for every death in all the world all the time. What I mean is that his is the only one who can give or take away life. He is sovereign when it comes to life. So your question about God shortening someone's life (the flood) and taking away their free choice to choose or not choose God: ??? God didn't "shorten" their life at all: when the Flood came, they died! God didn't shorten their life; that was their complete life. Same today: when a 20 year old dies in an auto accident - God didn't shorten their life; that was the end of their life!!
-“God is all loving “ and “God chose to create a world in which majority of the people of that world end up suffering for eternity in torment “
First of all, remember that although God did choose to create such a world, it is man that chose to end up suffering in hell for all eternity! Your statement is one way to look at the issue . . . But what about this perspective: When God planned the world and the creation of man, He saw all of the pain, the sorrow, the pain, and the eternal torment of many in hell, but even in spite of all this, he still created man. Why? Because he saw that in the end all of the pain and sorrow would be small compared to the glory, joy and fellowship of the redeemed saints with God through all eternity.
-“God justice is perfect and his wisdom is infinite” and “God chose to create system of justice that can lead in theory to a possible scenario in which Heaven can be packed with millions of psychopaths and murderers while Hell can be packed with millions of people like Gandhi”
There won't be any psychopaths and murderers in heaven! There will be converted psychopaths and murderers there, yes indeed! Many of the poor and downcast, and the unpopular will be there, too! Few of the rich and wise and famous of this world will be there! All God asks is simple belief in him and He forgives any sin we may have committed. Gandhi had the same chance as anyone else (and I don't know his eternal destiny).
-God is all powerful and constant in thinking across time , his wisdom and justice is perfect”
and “God created 3 types of law by which men are judged through out human history”
??? I don't know what you are asking -- must have been something earlier in the thread I didn't read!
how are you finding my solutions crazy or strange ?"
I guess the difference is that I believe that God is an all-powerful, all-loving God. That is my foundation. And hence the supernatural events of the Bible don't surprise me at all or seem strange at all. I am not sure which you mean by "my crazy and strange solutions"- ? I am guessing you mean suggestions you made that leave God out or deny his existence, etc. So I don't think I would say your solutions are "strange or crazy", but I will argue against anything that does not agree with the Bible.
"I told the truth .For 10 years I believed the bible is true. I never question it. I saw a debate about the bible and started thinking about the arguments brought against it and trying to refute them . But I couldn’t .So i said my approach is not good and correct .So I change it by saying that the bible is nor true or false . And started to analyze different stories and concepts. In a few months I founded more then 20 issues. I talked to many people about these issues ,but nobody gave me proper explanations .The majority of these people(even my own family) got angry and hostile and call me an atheist or that the satan is working through me. It is also hard to argue with people about these issues because there are many
kinds of bibles and many kinds of Christian beliefs ,many contrary beliefs about different concepts :forever conscious torment in hell/annihilation, the salvation can be lost /the salvation can’t be lost, creation in the bible according with the science findings/ or not , the things in story of the flood have scientific explanations/it is just a supranatural event with supranatural explanations and so on. "
I am very OK with you asking questions. And I think we need to ask questions and not just be spoonfed all our lives. Too many Christians sit in their highchair all their lives and let the "preacher" spoonfeed them!
Now if you don't mind questions: I will ask a few questions below and make a few comments:
"1.The story of creation and the story of Noah are supranational events that can’t be explain with science."
I basically agree, but your statement seems to infer that science is the measuring stick! I have no problem "explaining the story of Creation and the story of Noah". Modern day science with its emphasis on evolution is "unexplainable' in my eyes!
"2.The salvation of Jesus Christ can’t be lost , if someone is turning away from the faith wasn’t saved in the first place."
?? Christians don't agree on this one! ?? I would not state this the way you have it here.
"3.Hell /or lake of fire is a place of eternal torment where those who are not saved wind up to."
Yes, I agree.
"Irregularities and contradictions:
- “Small children are righteous " and "God chose to saved only the righteous people during the flood, but at least one small child died in the flood" ."
Where do you get that small children are "righteous"? And what do you mean by this? (I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I am not sure I like the term "righteous" for little children. I would say that children are "innocent" or "safe", and God chose to save only the adults who believed in Him. And of course children died in the flood. Children are dying every day all over the world.
"-“Go has given man free will; so he can sin as much as he wants to or not during his life on earth” and “God kill all the men (except Noah and his family) for they sinned to much in their life on earth”.
Again, the foundation I approach the question from makes it a "non-issue". God is directly or indirectly responsible for every death in all the world all the time. What I mean is that his is the only one who can give or take away life. He is sovereign when it comes to life. So your question about God shortening someone's life (the flood) and taking away their free choice to choose or not choose God: ??? God didn't "shorten" their life at all: when the Flood came, they died! God didn't shorten their life; that was their complete life. Same today: when a 20 year old dies in an auto accident - God didn't shorten their life; that was the end of their life!!
-“God is all loving “ and “God chose to create a world in which majority of the people of that world end up suffering for eternity in torment “
First of all, remember that although God did choose to create such a world, it is man that chose to end up suffering in hell for all eternity! Your statement is one way to look at the issue . . . But what about this perspective: When God planned the world and the creation of man, He saw all of the pain, the sorrow, the pain, and the eternal torment of many in hell, but even in spite of all this, he still created man. Why? Because he saw that in the end all of the pain and sorrow would be small compared to the glory, joy and fellowship of the redeemed saints with God through all eternity.
-“God justice is perfect and his wisdom is infinite” and “God chose to create system of justice that can lead in theory to a possible scenario in which Heaven can be packed with millions of psychopaths and murderers while Hell can be packed with millions of people like Gandhi”
There won't be any psychopaths and murderers in heaven! There will be converted psychopaths and murderers there, yes indeed! Many of the poor and downcast, and the unpopular will be there, too! Few of the rich and wise and famous of this world will be there! All God asks is simple belief in him and He forgives any sin we may have committed. Gandhi had the same chance as anyone else (and I don't know his eternal destiny).
-God is all powerful and constant in thinking across time , his wisdom and justice is perfect”
and “God created 3 types of law by which men are judged through out human history”
??? I don't know what you are asking -- must have been something earlier in the thread I didn't read!
-->chester:"1.The story of creation and the story of Noah are supranational events that can’t be explain with science."
I basically agree, but your statement seems to infer that science is the measuring stick! I have no problem "explaining the story of Creation and the story of Noah". Modern day science with its emphasis on evolution is "unexplainable' in my eyes!"
Q: Are all these intelligent people called scientists wrong?
A: No, there are not because the scientific process has proven very reliable so far. Without it we wouldn’t have now all these amazing things like: smartphones, cars, internet, medicine, electric power.
The scientific process has been the only reliable measuring stick so far.Why not applying to religion to ?
Q: Also Would a God that claims he wants a personal relationship based on belief and love with all the scientists let the bible say what it says and confuse most of them making it impossible for them to believe?
A: In my opinion he would not.
-->chester:"Where do you get that small children are "righteous"? And what do you mean by this? (I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I am not sure I like the term "righteous" for little children. I would say that children are "innocent" or "safe", and God chose to save only the adults who believed in Him. And of course children died in the flood. Children are dying every day all over the world."
Let’s look what righteous and blameless mean:
Righteous - upright, upstanding, decent, morally right or justifiable, good, virtuous, upstanding, worthy.
Blameless - innocent of wrongdoing, guiltless, above reproach, beyond criticism, above suspicion, irreproachable, unimpeachable, in the clear, not to blame, without fault, faultless, exemplary, perfect, virtuous, pure, moral, upright, impeccable, sinless, unblemished, spotless, stainless, untarnished, "he led a blameless life";
Bible verses: (Jeremiah 19:4-5), (Deuteronomy 1:39), (Genesis 6:9).
The Bible tells us that:
Small children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment? The Bible does indicate that children are innocent, for example, when describing how some of the Israelites in the Valley of Benhinnom had become corrupt so as to sacrifice their own (innocent) children.
Small children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil, they are no capable of making moral choices. So they are morally correct, righteous and blameless in the eyes of God.
Noah and his family were saved because they were the only righteous and blameless in the eyes of God(it clearly says this in the bible), while the rest of the humans and were not saved for being to corrupt, violent and sinful ;
Observations:
At the time of Noah must have been at least a single small child, a descendant from the lines of Abel(Lamech father of Noah had multiple sons and daughter, therefore he must had at least one grandchild or grand-grandchild ) or Cain.
Both Noah and the small children if they died would have gone to Heaven.
God being all powerful could have teleported the children to the ark.
Analyzing facts from different chapters and verses of the bible against each other leads to a major contradiction:
a) Human small children – were righteous in the eyes of God.
b) Noah and his family - were righteous in the eyes of God.
c) The rest of the humans - were not righteous in the eyes of God.
d) God killed all humans that were not righteous and saved only the righteous.
Statements a), b), c), d), are considered true in the bible.
Q: Can all 4 statements be true at the same time?
A: No, it is logically impossible.
-->chester:"Again, the foundation I approach the question from makes it a "non-issue". God is directly or indirectly responsible for every death in all the world all the time. What I mean is that his is the only one who can give or take away life. He is sovereign when it comes to life. So your question about God shortening someone's life (the flood) and taking away their free choice to choose or not choose God: ??? God didn't "shorten" their life at all: when the Flood came, they died! God didn't shorten their life; that was their complete life. Same today: when a 20 year old dies in an auto accident - God didn't shorten their life; that was the end of their life!!"
God killed them for their moral choice.The 20 year old died not because God's intervention concerning his belief and morality but because of natural events somewhat independent of God.But humans at the time of Noah being free moral agents and having freedom of will, God should have not intervened and punish them for their moral choice.This contradicts what free will is in my opinion.
-->chester:"First of all, remember that although God did choose to create such a world, it is man that chose to end up suffering in hell for all eternity! Your statement is one way to look at the issue . . . But what about this perspective: When God planned the world and the creation of man, He saw all of the pain, the sorrow, the pain, and the eternal torment of many in hell, but even in spite of all this, he still created man. Why? Because he saw that in the end all of the pain and sorrow would be small compared to the glory, joy and fellowship of the redeemed saints with God through all eternity."
What are you saying that to an all powerful, all loving God hearing for eternity the pain and sorrow of billions of people would fade in the background because of the glory, joy and fellowship of the few redeemed saints.This is absurd in my opinion .
If God chooses not the create the world he doesn't harm anybody, the few redeemed saints can't suffer from being denied an eternity of glory, joy, and fellowship with God because they don't exist and the billions of people who would have gone to hell don't suffer ether. Being all powerful he does not need to create the world to experience the glory, joy and fellowship with a few redeemed saints. He has already spend an eternity with them being an omnipresent and omniscient God.
-->chester :“God justice is perfect and his wisdom is infinite” and “God chose to create system of justice that can lead in theory to a possible scenario in which Heaven can be packed with millions of psychopaths and murderers while Hell can be packed with millions of people like Gandhi”
There won't be any psychopaths and murderers in heaven! There will be converted psychopaths and murderers there, yes indeed! Many of the poor and downcast, and the unpopular will be there, too! Few of the rich and wise and famous of this world will be there! All God asks is simple belief in him and He forgives any sin we may have committed. Gandhi had the same chance as anyone else (and I don't know his eternal destiny).
The fact that Gandhi didn't figure it out after a life of searching for the truth,after reading the bible that the God of the bible is the real,only God and that Jesus is his son tells that it is not plain for everyone to see.
For me it is not perfect justice when people like Gandhi can be so severely guilty, corrupted in the eyes of God and receive such harsh punishment while Hitler can have a pass from punishment just for a sudden change of heart in the last moments of his life.
Also let me show you other problem with the perfect justice of God:We you rape, steal or murder, you have you sinned both against the victim and against God. So if God "the victim" deems that is necessary that you to repent and ask for forgiveness to him so to receive his mercy why is not then also necessary for you to repent and ask for forgiveness to the other victim so to receive mercy. If God "the victim" has the choice to forgive the guilty who repents and asks for forgiveness and punish those who do not why the other victim is not entitled to the same choice. If God forgives the guilty through Jesus of both the sin against him and the victim, he denies the victim the choice to exert punishment or offer forgiveness for the sin committed against them and say to the other future guilty individuals that is fine just to ask forgives to the most important victim. This is not an example of perfect justice and infinite wisdom, just a complete indifference and ignorance to the other victim suffering and rightful choice to punish or forgive.
Example: There was in one point in the ancient times a powerful, just, kind and merciful king. One day both his and one of his peasants sun are being killed by the same individual at the same time. After several years the one of guilty looked for the king, found him and asked for his forgiveness. The powerful, just, kind and merciful king saw that he was truthfully remorseful and forgave him of both of his and his peasant son's murder. Then he grants him a place in the royal palace while at the same time punishes another murderer to a life of imprisonment and torture. He doesn't bother to ask the other victim: the peasant if he feels the same way. He just deliberately denied the peasant the right to choose whether to punish or forgive and showed by doing this no empathy for his subject suffering.
Analyzing this possible scenario against the attributes of God leads to a major contradiction:
a) God is all powerful, all loving and infinite in his mercy and wisdom with a perfect justice.
b) God created a system of justice that negates the others victims of sin the choice to punish or forgive the guilty party that wronged them.
Statements a), b) are considered true in the bible.
Q: Can both statements be true at the same time?
A: No, it is logically impossible.
I basically agree, but your statement seems to infer that science is the measuring stick! I have no problem "explaining the story of Creation and the story of Noah". Modern day science with its emphasis on evolution is "unexplainable' in my eyes!"
Q: Are all these intelligent people called scientists wrong?
A: No, there are not because the scientific process has proven very reliable so far. Without it we wouldn’t have now all these amazing things like: smartphones, cars, internet, medicine, electric power.
The scientific process has been the only reliable measuring stick so far.Why not applying to religion to ?
Q: Also Would a God that claims he wants a personal relationship based on belief and love with all the scientists let the bible say what it says and confuse most of them making it impossible for them to believe?
A: In my opinion he would not.
-->chester:"Where do you get that small children are "righteous"? And what do you mean by this? (I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I am not sure I like the term "righteous" for little children. I would say that children are "innocent" or "safe", and God chose to save only the adults who believed in Him. And of course children died in the flood. Children are dying every day all over the world."
Let’s look what righteous and blameless mean:
Righteous - upright, upstanding, decent, morally right or justifiable, good, virtuous, upstanding, worthy.
Blameless - innocent of wrongdoing, guiltless, above reproach, beyond criticism, above suspicion, irreproachable, unimpeachable, in the clear, not to blame, without fault, faultless, exemplary, perfect, virtuous, pure, moral, upright, impeccable, sinless, unblemished, spotless, stainless, untarnished, "he led a blameless life";
Bible verses: (Jeremiah 19:4-5), (Deuteronomy 1:39), (Genesis 6:9).
The Bible tells us that:
Small children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the basis of that judgment? The Bible does indicate that children are innocent, for example, when describing how some of the Israelites in the Valley of Benhinnom had become corrupt so as to sacrifice their own (innocent) children.
Small children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil, they are no capable of making moral choices. So they are morally correct, righteous and blameless in the eyes of God.
Noah and his family were saved because they were the only righteous and blameless in the eyes of God(it clearly says this in the bible), while the rest of the humans and were not saved for being to corrupt, violent and sinful ;
Observations:
At the time of Noah must have been at least a single small child, a descendant from the lines of Abel(Lamech father of Noah had multiple sons and daughter, therefore he must had at least one grandchild or grand-grandchild ) or Cain.
Both Noah and the small children if they died would have gone to Heaven.
God being all powerful could have teleported the children to the ark.
Analyzing facts from different chapters and verses of the bible against each other leads to a major contradiction:
a) Human small children – were righteous in the eyes of God.
b) Noah and his family - were righteous in the eyes of God.
c) The rest of the humans - were not righteous in the eyes of God.
d) God killed all humans that were not righteous and saved only the righteous.
Statements a), b), c), d), are considered true in the bible.
Q: Can all 4 statements be true at the same time?
A: No, it is logically impossible.
-->chester:"Again, the foundation I approach the question from makes it a "non-issue". God is directly or indirectly responsible for every death in all the world all the time. What I mean is that his is the only one who can give or take away life. He is sovereign when it comes to life. So your question about God shortening someone's life (the flood) and taking away their free choice to choose or not choose God: ??? God didn't "shorten" their life at all: when the Flood came, they died! God didn't shorten their life; that was their complete life. Same today: when a 20 year old dies in an auto accident - God didn't shorten their life; that was the end of their life!!"
God killed them for their moral choice.The 20 year old died not because God's intervention concerning his belief and morality but because of natural events somewhat independent of God.But humans at the time of Noah being free moral agents and having freedom of will, God should have not intervened and punish them for their moral choice.This contradicts what free will is in my opinion.
-->chester:"First of all, remember that although God did choose to create such a world, it is man that chose to end up suffering in hell for all eternity! Your statement is one way to look at the issue . . . But what about this perspective: When God planned the world and the creation of man, He saw all of the pain, the sorrow, the pain, and the eternal torment of many in hell, but even in spite of all this, he still created man. Why? Because he saw that in the end all of the pain and sorrow would be small compared to the glory, joy and fellowship of the redeemed saints with God through all eternity."
What are you saying that to an all powerful, all loving God hearing for eternity the pain and sorrow of billions of people would fade in the background because of the glory, joy and fellowship of the few redeemed saints.This is absurd in my opinion .
If God chooses not the create the world he doesn't harm anybody, the few redeemed saints can't suffer from being denied an eternity of glory, joy, and fellowship with God because they don't exist and the billions of people who would have gone to hell don't suffer ether. Being all powerful he does not need to create the world to experience the glory, joy and fellowship with a few redeemed saints. He has already spend an eternity with them being an omnipresent and omniscient God.
-->chester :“God justice is perfect and his wisdom is infinite” and “God chose to create system of justice that can lead in theory to a possible scenario in which Heaven can be packed with millions of psychopaths and murderers while Hell can be packed with millions of people like Gandhi”
There won't be any psychopaths and murderers in heaven! There will be converted psychopaths and murderers there, yes indeed! Many of the poor and downcast, and the unpopular will be there, too! Few of the rich and wise and famous of this world will be there! All God asks is simple belief in him and He forgives any sin we may have committed. Gandhi had the same chance as anyone else (and I don't know his eternal destiny).
The fact that Gandhi didn't figure it out after a life of searching for the truth,after reading the bible that the God of the bible is the real,only God and that Jesus is his son tells that it is not plain for everyone to see.
For me it is not perfect justice when people like Gandhi can be so severely guilty, corrupted in the eyes of God and receive such harsh punishment while Hitler can have a pass from punishment just for a sudden change of heart in the last moments of his life.
Also let me show you other problem with the perfect justice of God:We you rape, steal or murder, you have you sinned both against the victim and against God. So if God "the victim" deems that is necessary that you to repent and ask for forgiveness to him so to receive his mercy why is not then also necessary for you to repent and ask for forgiveness to the other victim so to receive mercy. If God "the victim" has the choice to forgive the guilty who repents and asks for forgiveness and punish those who do not why the other victim is not entitled to the same choice. If God forgives the guilty through Jesus of both the sin against him and the victim, he denies the victim the choice to exert punishment or offer forgiveness for the sin committed against them and say to the other future guilty individuals that is fine just to ask forgives to the most important victim. This is not an example of perfect justice and infinite wisdom, just a complete indifference and ignorance to the other victim suffering and rightful choice to punish or forgive.
Example: There was in one point in the ancient times a powerful, just, kind and merciful king. One day both his and one of his peasants sun are being killed by the same individual at the same time. After several years the one of guilty looked for the king, found him and asked for his forgiveness. The powerful, just, kind and merciful king saw that he was truthfully remorseful and forgave him of both of his and his peasant son's murder. Then he grants him a place in the royal palace while at the same time punishes another murderer to a life of imprisonment and torture. He doesn't bother to ask the other victim: the peasant if he feels the same way. He just deliberately denied the peasant the right to choose whether to punish or forgive and showed by doing this no empathy for his subject suffering.
Analyzing this possible scenario against the attributes of God leads to a major contradiction:
a) God is all powerful, all loving and infinite in his mercy and wisdom with a perfect justice.
b) God created a system of justice that negates the others victims of sin the choice to punish or forgive the guilty party that wronged them.
Statements a), b) are considered true in the bible.
Q: Can both statements be true at the same time?
A: No, it is logically impossible.
Basically a lot BS very loosely based on Bible events, along with a lot of stuff added that isn't even true at all.
P
popeye
Guest
....and we will note that bogus science does not make you question science,instead you frame Gods word as "obviously defective"
......and a defective God as a tyrant,leaving demon worshippers to a helpless end.
......humor us and frame the devil and the fruit of sin in its proper perspective