Rapture

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Feb 17, 2023
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#81
1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The great tribulation which Christians will go through is not the wrath of God that Jesus will protect us from. The great tribulation is satan's wrath against God's people.

We're to learn to endure in Christ and not fall away when we go through the great tribulation which even Jesus said will be the worst of all time. We can make it through this only in Jesus!


💒
 
Sep 13, 2022
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#82
No english word is in the Greek manuscripts. The Greek word for rapture is Harpazo and it is used by Paul about the rapture.



Wrong. Margaret MacDonald's vision was post-trib in nature, not Pretrib.




That author intentionally removed two sentences from her vision because they were post-trib. He is a liar and a deceiver.




No, the first one taken is raptured. The timeframe of this taking is AFTER the timeframe of the AC etc. It is Christ who does the taking and the not taking.






All true but the timeframe of the one taken is after the trib has ended and it is Jesus doing the taking of people, otherwise known as the rapture. Look up the greek definition for the word translated as "taken". It matches the concept of a rapture by Jesus.

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"

Luk 18:31 Then he took (paralambano) unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.


Same word and meaning here.


Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (second coming reference), and receive you (paralambano) unto myself (rapture reference); that where I am, there ye may be also.



This is the rapture and guess what? The same exact word and meaning is here too. The one taken is a reference to the rapture.
All I can say brother is, have a nice flight.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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#84
1 Thessalonians 1:10, which says, "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. what do you make of this verse here? I see your point in what you posted and yes it would appear to be post trib but then why does this verse say this what is he saying here?

That speaks of the wrath of God. We are delivered from that but the trib is the wrath of satan and the church is not delivered from his wrath.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#85
That speaks of the wrath of God. We are delivered from that but the trib is the wrath of satan and the church is not delivered from his wrath.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
ok but it doesn't say that it just says how wrathful the devil is and the verse I posted says we will be delivered from it soo where does it say we will avoid God's wrath vs the devils? And your telling me I gave my life up just to be tormented and killed?
That doesn't sound right
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#86
No, it's pure ignorance on your part. You don't understand a single thing about the passage.
Jesus: My coming will be as in the days of Noah. One will be taken and one will remain
Genesis 7:23: In Noah's day death took the wicked and only righteous Noah and his family remained
Me: Genesis 7:23 says the wicked were taken and the righteous remained
ewq1938: Pure ignorance
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#87
Matthew 24:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

From these verses in this passage, we can determine:

1) It is talking to Christians about Christians.

2) It is talking about the Second Coming of Christ.

3) It is talking about the rapture.

4) It is Christians that are being 'taken' ("raptured") in verses 40-41.

With regard to the comparison being made, what verses 37-39 are saying does not include what verses 40-41 are saying.

The comparison is only about the 'unexpectedness' of the event. It is not an "in every detail" kind of comparison.

The comparison is "defined" by verses 38-39. You cannot "shove" verses 40-41 into it. That is not valid.

Verses 40-41 are not part of the comparison to the Noe/ark/flood referenced event.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#88
Then why be in this thread if you do not wish to debate it?
Not everyone who participates in any given thread wishes to debate the topic.

That is part of the problem in this forum - too many people think that every thread topic is "by definition" supposed to be debated... :rolleyes:

Very few seem to know how to just simply discuss a topic without turning it into a pride-filled all-or-nothing win-or-lose free-for-all. :(

true enough it is a topic that has been continuiously debated over and over but you call the pretrib a false doctrine but why is it a false doctrine and how can you prove it? you cannot make a claim like that and not back it up in some way.
It has been "backed up" over-and-over-and-over-and-over - but, very precious few are listening or paying attention.

It then seems kind of useless to say it one more time...
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#89
But where does it speak of the tribulation? his second coming yes I see that but I don't see where in scripture it speaks of the tribulation then the second second coming then the rapture
It does not need to speak of the tribulation!

You have gone into error before you even start.

If you always try to wrap every verse/passage around something else instead of first understanding what the verse/passage is trying to tell you - you will never understand these things properly. Every verse/passage must be understood within its own context first - then you may successfully "compare scripture with scripture" where appropriate and relevant.

STOP looking for what is not there. Instead, look to understand what is really actually there - WITHOUT allowing yourself to be distracted away from what it really actually says - no more and no less - do not add to it and do not take away from it.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#90
ok but it doesn't say that it just says how wrathful the devil is and the verse I posted says we will be delivered from it soo where does it say we will avoid God's wrath vs the devils? And your telling me I gave my life up just to be tormented and killed?
That doesn't sound right
I suggest that the reason anyone gives their life to Christ does so because they want to be in the truth and live with Him forever after this life is over. Whatever may happen to them in this life is secondary and comparatively insignificant.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#91
I suggest that the reason anyone gives their life to Christ does so because they want to be in the truth and live with Him forever after this life is over. Whatever may happen to them in this life is secondary and comparatively insignificant.
True but that isn't the point though, if we gave our hearts to him and he loves us then he would never want us to be tortured and killed just to be resurrected and then raptured what good would that do? it doesn't make sense
what would be the point of that? if we are just going to be tortured andd killed for his sake then resurrected and then raptured what would be the point?
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#92
True but that isn't the point though, if we gave our hearts to him and he loves us then he would never want us to be tortured and killed just to be resurrected and then raptured what good would that do? it doesn't make sense
what would be the point of that? if we are just going to be tortured andd killed for his sake then resurrected and then raptured what would be the point?
The answer to your question may be found by answering this one and following it with some good reasoning:

"Why did God not prevent the extreme horrific torture and death of the Dark Ages saints?"
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#93
The answer to your question may be found by answering this one and following it with some good reasoning:

"Why did God not prevent the extreme horrific torture and death of the Dark Ages saints?"
I don't know, do you?
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#96
I don't know, why do you think it is?
You are too focused on one or two trees - you need to back up and see the whole forest.

God's plan - in the largest scope - includes a whole lot more than what you are agonizing over.

Trust in the Lord and He will take care of you. Do not worry about what men can or will do to you.

Hebrews 13:

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

God is greater.

John 10:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

He will see you through whatever shows up in your path - IF you will just trust in Him.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#97
You are too focused on one or two trees - you need to back up and see the whole forest.

God's plan - in the largest scope - includes a whole lot more than what you are agonizing over.

Trust in the Lord and He will take care of you. Do not worry about what men can or will do to you.

Hebrews 13:

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

God is greater.

John 10:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

He will see you through whatever shows up in your path - IF you will just trust in Him.
I do trust him and I am not afraid to die for the cause of Christ my issue is that it doesn't make sense to make us do that just to be resurected and then the rapture happens.
the tribulation is seven years in this short period of time lets say that we go through it are tportured and killed only to be resurected a few or so years later but for what purpose though? a test of faith? a declaration of loyalty? what purpose do we go through this how does it benefit God?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#98
True but that isn't the point though, if we gave our hearts to him and he loves us then he would never want us to be tortured and killed just to be resurrected and then raptured what good would that do? it doesn't make sense
what would be the point of that? if we are just going to be tortured andd killed for his sake then resurrected and then raptured what would be the point?
Persecution is often what God uses to build the church. This may seem counterintuitive, but simply look at the early church. The Apostles and many other Christians were put to death, but the early church prospered and grew. There is much persecution of the church in our time in countries like China, North Korea, and even in Iran. Yet these are said to be the fastest growing churches and evidence of spiritual activity is abundant.

Why is this so?
Romans 8:37 gives some insight..Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

So what are...all these things? Start back in verse 35...tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril or sword.

What does it mean we are...more than conquerors? Why aren't we just...conquerors? Why are we...more than conquerors? Because God isn't satisfied simply to defeat the enemy. God defeats the enemy employing what the enemy was trying to defeat us with. Not only do we win, but God is glorified in winning through us.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#99
Persecution is often what God uses to build the church. This may seem counterintuitive, but simply look at the early church. The Apostles and many other Christians were put to death, but the early church prospered and grew. There is much persecution of the church in our time in countries like China, North Korea, and even in Iran. Yet these are said to be the fastest growing churches and evidence of spiritual activity is abundant.

Why is this so?
Romans 8:37 gives some insight..Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

So what are...all these things? Start back in verse 35...tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril or sword.

What does it mean we are...more than conquerors? Why aren't we just...conquerors? Why are we...more than conquerors? Because God isn't satisfied simply to defeat the enemy. God defeats the enemy employing what the enemy was trying to defeat us with. Not only do we win, but God is glorified in winning through us.
ok I guess that amkes sense, would you say we are in the tribulation or are we heading into it?
 
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I wounder how many separate The Two gospels correctly. The Gosple of , The Kingdom Of Heaven, and, The Gosple of, The Kingdom of God.
Oil and water do not mix!