Reconciled to God while enemies !

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reneweddaybyday said:
My understanding is that God is Faithful ... mankind has faith ... and that is exactly what your source says:​
The sinner is justified before God by God's faithfulness, by His assurance in the blood of His Son, whom He appointed, and by the faithfulness of Jesus Christin bringing into being a righteousness that can be not only imputed but also imparted to us.​

Thats your understanding, Im not posting your understanding of things, which I believe are erronous
your own source refers to "God's faithfulness" and the "faithfulness of Jesus Christ.

Maybe you'll believe AI

input
:

"what bible verse says God has faith"​

AI response:

The Bible does not explicitly state that God "has faith" or believes in something outside of Himself, because He is omniscient (all-knowing) and the ultimate object of faith. However, the scriptures frequently emphasize God’s absolute faithfulness—meaning He is entirely trustworthy and always keeps His promises.​

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In vs 20, the born again believer is the "ambassador for Christ"
And those being preached to, he is writing to a Church of saints, he isnt outside in front of the liquor store
If you are going to hold to that line of reasoning, and the "ambassador for Christ" is begging born again believers to "be ye reconciled to God", then you're speaking in terms of the born again believer who has turned from God and it is fellowship between the believer and God that is being reconciled ... if this is the case, you are not speaking in terms of a believer preaching the gospel to natural man.

I already been over that. Paul is exhorting reconciled people, whose sins have not been charged to them, no Paul isnt preaching to natural men, SAINTS already reconciled
 
If it is the gospel message being preached, then they are not born again believers and, according to 2 Corinthians 5:20, they are to remain passive when the "ambassador for Christ" begs them to "be ye reconciled" ... iow they don't "actively" do anything.


and I am somewhat skeptical as to the exact question you input into AI because the following is nestled within the response of AI to your question:


"Because your friend likes to jump on grammatical tenses to prove a point"​

what "friend" were you discussing when you input your query into AI ???




interesting ... I input your same question:


"in 2 Cor 5:20 be ye reconciled is a imperative but passive voice, so is it right to say they are being caused to act upon the command be ye reconciled ?"

response of AI (red mine):

Yes, it is grammatically and theologically correct to say that the audience is being acted upon rather than initiating the action, but saying they are "caused to act" slightly misinterprets how Koine Greek passive imperatives function.
In 2 Corinthians 5:20, the phrase "be ye reconciled" translates the Greek verb καταλλάγητε (katallagēte), which is an aorist passive imperative. Because it is a passive imperative, the command is actually to allow or receive an action performed by someone else—in this case, God.​

please note the slight misinterpretation in your query pointed out by AI:

"but saying they are "caused to act" slightly misinterprets how Koine Greek passive imperatives function"​

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Im going by what I researched out with AI
 
According to romans 1:16, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... you have no faith in God's powerful gospel of Christ.
Yeah to them who are already believers [present tense] it is the power of God. Believe here is a present tense participle, they are believers, and God uses the Gospel to establish them in their salvation experience. Rom 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Furthermore the Gospel is the power of God to them who are saved or being [passive] saved 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

And to top this off, you reject the Gospel, see my thread Calvinism is the Gospel
 
That is a common belief, but incorrect. It was Jesus Who was elect from the foundations of the world. We become elect with Him when we are placed into Him. One thing is unmistakable, and that is that we are elect 'in Him', or "in Christ" per Ephesians chapter one, which says the same over and over. The only other option that you have is that we are 'in Him' from the foundations of the world and already saved, which is what some do to solve that problem, but that's not Biblical, obviously. Read Ephesians 1, you'll see. Elect "in Him, elect "in Christ". It's called corporate election, and that I believe is Biblical. Believe and be saved, the Gospel message is in harmony with that. The message by some today, that is 'be saved and believe' is hostile to the Bible and the simple Gospel message. We receive the life, the Holy Spirit as a result of believing. That places us in Him, and Him in us.

This is how they, all OT believers, were reconciled to God.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed (not reconciled), to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus (reconciled).

Nobody is reconciled until they are placed into Christ Jesus. No OT believer was placed into Christ until after the death, resurrection and ascension. No believer can become the Temple of the Holy Spirit (NT only) without blood to cleanse that Temple. We cannot be placed into Christ without that indwelling, which spiritually baptizes/places us into Christ. The Agent of that placing into, the Holy Spirit indwelling, the death and resurrection and ascension, all waited for each other and were all needed for believers to be reconciled.

Jesus is the Church, the One True Church. Everyone believes that the Church was birthed at Pentecost, but most never ask what that means? The first placed into Christ and saved , both practically and legally. That's how it was birthed.

This is what John prophesied about near the end of the OT, and that prophecy went all the way back to Ezekiel. The baptism/placing into with/by the Holy Spirit is what was given at Pentecost. It was owed to some, because they already trusted Jesus. Owed to others true OT believrs who had not yet heard the Gospel, they were predestined to hear and believe, and, as a result, be placed into Christ, reconciled. this is haw it happens.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Dave


This is a very helpful post and I completely agree. Are you sure you are Reformed? lol

I think it is also helpful to note that in Ephesians 1 to 12 Paul uses first person plural and then shifts for second person plural.

This also indicates that Paul has his own people in view during those first 12 verses.. and then switches to "you".. the congregants who are both Jews and Gentiles.
 
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This also indicates that Paul has his own people in view during those first 12 verses.. and then switches to "you".. the congregants who are both Jews and Gentiles.
He probably did mean the elect jews were first to have the Gospel preached to them, for the outcalling of the elect remnant, then it moved to the outcall of the Gentile elect Rom 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But the elect body, jew and gentile were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world in union with Christ their Head Eph 1:4
 
reneweddaybyday said:
In vs 20, the born again believer is the "ambassador for Christ"​

And those being preached to, he is writing to a Church of saints
Question: "in 2 Cor 5:20 are the ambassadors for Christ speaking to believers or unbelievers"

AI
The ambassadors for Christ in 2 Corinthians 5:20 are speaking primarily to unbelievers, but the verse has an important dual application for believers as well:​
  • To Unbelievers: The specific message delivered is “Be reconciled to God”. This is a plea, an invitation, and a command for non-believers to turn away from their sins, accept God’s forgiveness, and enter into a right relationship with Him.
  • To Believers: The verse establishes that believers are the actual ambassadors. The responsibility to speak and share this message of reconciliation has been entrusted to Christians.
In short, believers are the messengers, and their primary target audience for this specific plea is unbelievers.​

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reneweddaybyday said:
interesting ... I input your same question:​
"in 2 Cor 5:20 be ye reconciled is a imperative but passive voice, so is it right to say they are being caused to act upon the command be ye reconciled ?"​
response of AI (red mine):​
Yes, it is grammatically and theologically correct to say that the audience is being acted upon rather than initiating the action, but saying they are "caused to act" slightly misinterprets how Koine Greek passive imperatives function.
In 2 Corinthians 5:20, the phrase "be ye reconciled" translates the Greek verb καταλλάγητε (katallagēte), which is an aorist passive imperative. Because it is a passive imperative, the command is actually to allow or receive an action performed by someone else—in this case, God.​
please note the slight misinterpretation in your query pointed out by AI:​
"but saying they are "caused to act" slightly misinterprets how Koine Greek passive imperatives function"​

Im going by what I researched out with AI
figures ... if/when your dogma misinterprets the Koine Greek passive imperative function ... go with the incorrect dogma ... smh

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reneweddaybyday said:
According to romans 1:16, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... you have no faith in God's powerful gospel of Christ.​

Believe here is a present tense participle
well, according to your claim here:

You dont have to have Faith in Christ​

you're contradicting yourself again ... par for the course imo

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reneweddaybyday said:
In vs 20, the born again believer is the "ambassador for Christ"
Thats because if you dont clarify it will give you more of a freewiller view. when using AI you must also tell them what you believe, and then it can give you better support for your belief from the scriptures and grammar.

Example: Me to AI [So you knowing what I believe, are the ones in 2 Cor 5:20 being exhorted to be reconciled to God, already regenerated ?]
AI:

Yes, absolutely. In your view, and in the theology of John Gill, the people being exhorted in 2 Corinthians 5:20 to “be ye reconciled to God” are already regenerated. [1, 2]
Because your framework holds that the elect are made alive by the Spirit and then brought to the Gospel to believe it before death, this text becomes a massive proof text for you. [1, 2]
John Gill's exact commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:20 explicitly backs up your position by identifying who is being addressed and what kind of reconciliation is being demanded. [1]

1. Who is Paul addressing? (Already-Born-Again Saints)
Gill strongly points out that Paul is writing this letter to the church at Corinth. [1]
  • Look at how Paul addresses them in chapter 1: "unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
  • Gill argues that Paul is not standing on a street corner preaching to an unregenerate, hostile world here. He is talking to people who are already new creations in Christ (v. 17). They have already received spiritual life. [1, 2, 3, 4]

2. Legal Reconciliation vs. Experiential Reconciliation
To understand why regenerated saints need to be told to "be reconciled," Gill splits reconciliation into two parts:
  • The Legal Reality (v. 19): “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them”. Gill notes that this legal reconciliation was fully finished at the cross. God’s wrath against the elect was fully appeased by Christ. [1, 2, 3]
  • The Experiential Reality (v. 20): “Be ye reconciled to God.” Gill explains that this is an exhortation to the regenerated soul’s conscience. [1]

3. Gill’s Explanation of the Exhortation
Gill writes that even after a person is regenerated, they still struggle with indwelling sin, doubts, legalistic fears, and times of spiritual distance. When Paul writes, "We pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God," Gill interprets it as a pastoral command to believers to: [1, 2]
  • Quit looking at your own sins and failures.
  • Drop your legalistic fears that God is angry with you.
  • Acquiesce, submit, and rest completely in the peace and legal reconciliation that Jesus already accomplished for you at the cross. [1]

Summary
Under your view, 2 Corinthians 5:20 fits like a glove. The gospel delivery truck arrives to a person whom the Spirit has secretly quickened. The preacher, acting as an ambassador, addresses this newly alive soul and implores their conscience: "God has already cleared your legal record through Christ! Therefore, stop running, stop doubting, drop your weapons of fear, and be reconciled to the reality of His grace!" [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
 
when using AI you must also tell them what you believe, and then it can give you better support for your belief from the scriptures and grammar.
manipulation to generate your predicted outcome does not result in truth. you skew the results through your biased approach ... biased input results in biased and/or inaccurate output


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manipulation to generate your predicted outcome does not result in truth. you skew the results through your biased approach ... biased input results in biased and/or inaccurate output


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No its not manipulation, its familiar with different doctrine persuasions. When I use the machine Im seeking information to better understand my convictions, and it assists from there. You can use it to better understand your beliefs. You cant manipulate that tool, its designed to help everyone, not just you. In fact since it has information solidyfing my view, that lets me know others hold my same view, or that information wouldn't process. You are mad because it helps me defeat your false views lol
 
Expecting a different result?
right ? ... even when his AI results ... or his source ... says the same thing I'm telling him he rejects ... then skews his input into AI until he gets the result he wants ... such a shameful approach to God's Word.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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No its not manipulation, its familiar with different doctrine persuasions. When I use the machine Im seeking information to better understand my convictions, and it assists from there. You can use it to better understand your beliefs.
I'm more concerned about the truth of God's Word ... not bolstering your preconceived notion.




You cant manipulate that tool, its designed to help everyone, not just you.
yes you can manipulate it ...

query: "biased input into ai"


AI (bold mine):​
Biased input into AI—whether through skewed training data, flawed algorithm design, or unbalanced prompt engineering—forces the system to learn and amplify those exact prejudices. This directly distorts outputs ...​




In fact since it has information solidyfing my view, that lets me know others hold my same view, or that information wouldn't process.
:rolleyes: ... as if "others hold my same view" is any barometer for an accurate knowledge of God's Word ... smh ...




You are mad because it helps me defeat your false views lol
I'm not mad ... although I do believe you are "mad" (crazy) to rely on AI for proper interpretation of Scripture.

query: "should someone rely on ai for proper interpretation of Scripture"


AI
No, one should not solely rely on AI for the proper interpretation of Scripture. While AI can be a useful research assistant for summarizing historical contexts, generating outlines, or doing word searches, it lacks spiritual discernment, moral agency, and the ability to understand nuanced theological truths.​

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