Reconciled to God while enemies !

[brightfame52]

the New Testament consistently describes justification as God counting believers ‘in the right’ because of Christ, not as a transfer of moral perfection."

He actually counts righteous/justified ungodly before they become believers Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith comes afterwards

 

[Roger316]

No, it is given from salvation.

I don't understand this because repentance is not something that is given. If words have meaning, then repentance is not something that to a truth claim.

The idea that “repentance can be given” is linguistically and conceptually absurd. Repentance is, by definition, a human act, a human posture, a human turning. It cannot be transferred, handed over, or bestowed like an object. What can be given is the opportunity, space, summons, or conditions that make repentance possible.

Did you read the verses I included?

Yes, but they don't say what you think they say because words have meaning and repentance is NOT something that can be given. The verses are not saying that the repentance itself was given; they are saying that the opportunity, space, summons, and/or conditions have been given in order to make repentance possible and understandable.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't understand this because repentance is not something that is given.

Yes it is Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[Roger316]

Who said "create"? The verse is self-explanatory - that solely by Christ's perfect obedience to the Father's plan of salvation, that Christ of Himself made many righteous without anything further being required of them.

Okay, let me slow this down a bit and make sure I understand what you are saying.

When someone says,

“Christ of Himself made many righteous without anything further being required of them,”

they are almost always assuming a very specific theological mechanism:

• Christ’s obedience is counted as your obedience
• Christ’s righteousness is transferred to you
• God regards you as righteous because He sees Christ’s righteousness instead of your actual life

That is the standard imputed righteousness model.

Is that what you are saying? or Something else?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The verses are not saying that the repentance itself was given; they are saying that the opportunity, space, summons, and/or conditions have been given in order to make repentance possible and understandable.

In other words, grace

 

[GWH]

I asked you a question earlier. According to Ezekiel 36:26-27, what causes an individual to cooperate with God?

See post #455 for my reply, but if you want more to harmonize, see Matt. 13:14-15 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

 

[Cameron143]

See post #455 for my reply, but if you want more to harmonize, see Matt. 13:14-15 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

I want a direct answer to my question:

According to Ezekiel 36:26-27, what does God say causes cooperation?

 

[Roger316]

Thats false, and its works Its nothing for them to decide, its a done deal apart from any deciding from them, its already been done for them. They are born into the world as sinners and rebels, and they have already been made righteous legally by Christ one obedience as their Covenant Surety..

Perhaps you have never read Romans 6:1-11

Baptism into Christ’s death as an existential choice
When Paul says that believers are “baptized into Christ’s death,” he is not describing a mystical transformation that happens behind our backs. He is describing a personal, conscious identification with what the cross means. To be “baptized into His death” is to accept that Jesus’ death reveals the truth about *me* — the seriousness of my sin, the end of my old way of life, and the new allegiance I now embrace. This is why Paul can say that those who have died to sin cannot continue living in it. The “death” he speaks of is not a positional fiction but a self‑defining act: I have chosen to stand where Christ stood, to accept what the cross says about my life, and to let that truth reshape my existence.

Faith as lived participation, not passive status
Paul’s argument only works if faith is understood as a lived reality, not a static label. In Romans 6, faith is the act of stepping into Christ’s story — dying with Him, rising with Him, and walking in newness of life. This is why Paul rejects the idea that someone could “continue in sin so that grace may abound.” Such a posture contradicts the very identity the believer has embraced. Faith is not merely believing that Christ died; it is entering into that death, accepting its implications, and allowing it to define one’s life. In Paul’s logic, a person who has truly died with Christ will inevitably begin to live in ways that reflect that death. Faith is not positional bookkeeping; it is existential participation.

 

[Roger316]

My point is that we possess a righteousness before God that is not our own. It had to come from another source. That source is God.
At the same time our sins were laid upon Jesus on the cross. We know this is true because sin causes death. Having no sin of His own, Jesus could not have died unless our sins were ascribed to Him.

This is what the previous verses under consideration reveal.

Consider that the term "righteousness" has three distinct meanings in the New Testament.

1. Moral rightness
2. Blamelessness
3. Right with God.

Just something to consider as we read.

 

[Cameron143]

Consider that the term "righteousness" has three distinct meanings in the New Testament.

1. Moral rightness
2. Blamelessness
3. Right with God.

Just something to consider as we read.

We weren't considering the character of the righteousness. We were considering the source of the righteousness.

 

[Roger316]

We weren't considering the character of the righteousness. We were considering the source of the righteousness.

Okay, the meaning of one informs the meaning of the other doesn't it?

BTW, I am working on a time-sensitive project, so I won't be posting for a couple of days. I enjoyed reading your posts. I'll be back soon, and we can talk then.

Thanks

 

[rogerg]

I don't understand this because repentance is not something that is given. If words have meaning, then repentance is not something that to a truth claim.

The idea that “repentance can be given” is linguistically and conceptually absurd. Repentance is, by definition, a human act, a human posture, a human turning. It cannot be transferred, handed over, or bestowed like an object. What can be given is the opportunity, space, summons, or conditions that make repentance possible.


Yes, but they don't say what you think they say because words have meaning and repentance is NOT something that can be given. The verses are not saying that the repentance itself was given; they are saying that the opportunity, space, summons, and/or conditions have been given in order to make repentance possible and understandable.

It is the change of heart that accompanies salvation and becoming born again. And that isn't possible, why, because you say it's not? You would change God's clear words placing your judgment over His, telling Him that He is unable to do what He precisely said He does? So, you disagree with clear Scripture and the power of God, and that is what is "linguistically absurd". You lose creditability with kind of ridiculous position. Do these verses look " linguistically absurd" to you too? You don't think God is capable of carrying them out along with anything else that He desires? Really?

[Eze 36:26-27 KJV
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

 

[Cameron143]

Okay, the meaning of one informs the meaning of the other doesn't it?

BTW, I am working on a time-sensitive project, so I won't be posting for a couple of days. I enjoyed reading your posts. I'll be back soon, and we can talk then.

Thanks

I also appreciate the discussion, but one doesn't need the character of righteousness to determine its source.

Grace and peace.

 

[rogerg]

Yes it is Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Yup. In my original post, brightfame52, I included Acts 11:18 too. Guess he just won't accept the truth.

 

[brightfame52]

Perhaps you have never read Romans 6:1-11

Baptism into Christ’s death as an existential choice
When Paul says that believers are “baptized into Christ’s death,” he is not describing a mystical transformation that happens behind our backs. He is describing a personal, conscious identification with what the cross means. To be “baptized into His death” is to accept that Jesus’ death reveals the truth about *me* — the seriousness of my sin, the end of my old way of life, and the new allegiance I now embrace. This is why Paul can say that those who have died to sin cannot continue living in it. The “death” he speaks of is not a positional fiction but a self‑defining act: I have chosen to stand where Christ stood, to accept what the cross says about my life, and to let that truth reshape my existence.

Faith as lived participation, not passive status
Paul’s argument only works if faith is understood as a lived reality, not a static label. In Romans 6, faith is the act of stepping into Christ’s story — dying with Him, rising with Him, and walking in newness of life. This is why Paul rejects the idea that someone could “continue in sin so that grace may abound.” Such a posture contradicts the very identity the believer has embraced. Faith is not merely believing that Christ died; it is entering into that death, accepting its implications, and allowing it to define one’s life. In Paul’s logic, a person who has truly died with Christ will inevitably begin to live in ways that reflect that death. Faith is not positional bookkeeping; it is existential participation.

You are advertising works salvation !

 

[brightfame52]

Yup. In my original post, brightfame52, I included Acts 11:18 too. Guess he just won't accept the truth.

Yeah I saw that!

 

[GWH]

I want a direct answer to my question:

According to Ezekiel 36:26-27, what does God say causes cooperation?

What answer do you want, since you reject my answer?

 

[brightfame52]

What answer do you want, since you reject my answer?

Try answering according to what that passage of scripture says

 

[Cameron143]

What answer do you want, since you reject my answer?

I'd like you to read 2 verses...Ezekiel 36:26-27...and tell me what these scripture say is the reason man cooperates with God.

 

[HeIsHere]

When Paul says that God made Christ to be sin, he isn't saying that God transformed Christ into sin; he is saying that God designated or appointed Christ to represent sin, He spells this out in detail in Romans chapter 3 where he argues that the cross was a demonstration of God's righteousness, i.e moral goodness. If you want to know what God thinks of sin, look to the cross. The death of Christ stands as God's statement that he is not lax about sin.

Those who look at the cross and decide, "that is what I deserve for my sin," are those whom God is declaring "right in my sight."

Agree!