Repentance Vs Eternal Security

[SeaBass]

There is one important difference - Judas was not born again - he was not filled with holy Spirit. He was not part of the twelve on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit was first given. . . .so he was not "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise which is our inheritance UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION" . . . . . we are!

Also - the following shows an act of contrition and repentance on Judas' part:

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Matt. 27:3

Judas was just as saved as the other 11 disciples of Christ per Lk 6.

Read Matthew chapter 10 and remember that everything said here about the apostles INCLUDES Judas...Judas had the power of the HS to heal, to speak by inspiration and Jesus said anyone that received Judas was the same as receiveng Christ, v40.


Judas died before Acts 2:38 came into effect so he was never held accountable to this water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, so he was never born again by this baptism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Pet 2:

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

"But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."


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The dog and the sow represents those that had escaped the pollutions of this world thru the knowledge of Jesus Christ, but become again entangled with the world.


The knew the way of righteousness but turned from it.

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How can they become AGAIN entangled if they were ALWAYS entangled?

How could they TURN from the way of righteousness and holy commandment delivered unto them if they NEVER had or NEVER known the way of righteousness or the holy commandment?

How could the sow be washed if it was NEVER washed and ALWAYS wallowing in the mire?

No.

The Dog and sow represent who a person was. The context and meaning is that they tried to act like something they were not. But they could not continue acting that way. Thus they returned to what they truly were.

ie, God did not change them, Like a dog. Tried to learn something new But they always will return to what they truly are. You can only act like a christian so long before your true self shows.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Judas was just as saved as the other 11 disciples of Christ per Lk 6.

Read Matthew chapter 10 and remember that everything said here about the apostles INCLUDES Judas...Judas had the power of the HS to heal, to speak by inspiration and Jesus said anyone that received Judas was the same as receiveng Christ, v40.


Judas died before Acts 2:38 came into effect so he was never held accountable to this water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, so he was never born again by this baptism.

Then according to you everyone is saved. Why bother We can be a devil. Live in sin (even after trying to walk with God) and still be saved.

 

[dcontroversal]

Where does the Bible say Judas was a devil from the beginning? Chapter and verse please.

John 6:70-71

Jesus answering them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you IS (be verb) a devil (present tense)
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for it was he that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

This was well before his betrayal and was shortly after being chosen by Jesus.....He was lost from the beginning, never was saved and died lost when he committed suicide.....

 

[SarahM777]

John 6:70-71

Jesus answering them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you IS (be verb) a devil (present tense)
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for it was he that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

This was well before his betrayal and was shortly after being chosen by Jesus.....He was lost from the beginning, never was saved and died lost when he committed suicide.....

Slight problem,John lists it very early in his gospel IE Chapter 6. John mostly deals with the last few weeks of Jesus life.
Matthew records it in chapter 14. Chapters 21-28 deal with Jesus last week. By the way Chapter 10 comes BEFORE chapter 14.

Jesus tells the disciples this

10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

One minor problem in this IF Judas was a DEVIL at this point then you have a DEVIL CASTING OUT DEVILS.

Which by the way said Jesus this in CHAPTER 12

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


So please explain how that is possible?

By the way IS does NOT mean WAS

 

[dcontroversal]

Slight problem,John lists it very early in his gospel IE Chapter 6. John mostly deals with the last few weeks of Jesus life.
Matthew records it in chapter 14. Chapters 21-28 deal with Jesus last week. By the way Chapter 10 comes BEFORE chapter 14.

Jesus tells the disciples this

10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

One minor problem in this IF Judas was a DEVIL at this point then you have a DEVIL CASTING OUT DEVILS.

Which by the way said Jesus this in CHAPTER 12

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


So please explain how that is possible?

By the way IS does NOT mean WAS

Did you miss the first part of the statement? Jesus answering them, Have not I chosen you twelve<-----Question for you...Is the word of God inspired?....YES, Did Jesus say this?....Jesus ties Judas and being a devil in the present tense with Judas having been chosen in the past.....sooooooooo using common sense and deductive reasoning what does this tell us about Judas and him being a devil????? That he was a devil when?

a. At the present moment that Jesus taught this?
b. At the moment that Judas was to sell Jesus out?
c. At the moment before Jesus chose Judas as a disciple?
d. All of the above?

 

[SarahM777]

Did you miss the first part of the statement? Jesus answering them, Have not I chosen you twelve<-----Question for you...Is the word of God inspired?....YES, Did Jesus say this?....Jesus ties Judas and being a devil in the present tense with Judas having been chosen in the past.....sooooooooo using common sense and deductive reasoning what does this tell us about Judas and him being a devil????? That he was a devil when?

a. At the present moment that Jesus taught this?
b. At the moment that Judas was to sell Jesus out?
c. At the moment before Jesus chose Judas as a disciple?
d. All of the above?

You're reading that into the text,that Judas was a devil in the past. Jesus did choose them in the past,but when He calls a devil it is the present tense NOT PAST. Someone who betrays you is a friend in the past does not mean so when they betray you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did you miss the first part of the statement? Jesus answering them, Have not I chosen you twelve<-----Question for you...Is the word of God inspired?....YES, Did Jesus say this?....Jesus ties Judas and being a devil in the present tense with Judas having been chosen in the past.....sooooooooo using common sense and deductive reasoning what does this tell us about Judas and him being a devil????? That he was a devil when?

a. At the present moment that Jesus taught this?
b. At the moment that Judas was to sell Jesus out?
c. At the moment before Jesus chose Judas as a disciple?
d. All of the above?

D

Jesus knew judas was going to betray him the moment he chose him.

Just like he knew peter would deny him.

However, He knew Peters heart. As well as he knew Judas Heart.

 

[dcontroversal]

D

Jesus knew judas was going to betray him the moment he chose him.

Just like he knew peter would deny him.

However, He knew Peters heart. As well as he knew Judas Heart.

Amen and I agree...it seems there are many that do not understand the use of a (be) verb in the N.T. and the use of (and) which ties two thoughts together.....conjunction junction what's your function..........

 

[parablepete]

Sea Bass: Please execpt me as your friend. At the top of the page in the right hand cornor. I am also a memeber of the Lords Church. I have just got to get to know you better. If your not a Genius you should be.

If people can't learn the truth here. its their fault, not yours.

You are a very good teacher!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Did not Jesus say that He had chosen the 12 and one was or is a devil...that the scriptures may be fulfilled....Judas never was saved and was a devil form the beginning. (LOST that is)

Yep - Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70,71

It just makes me wonder about these: Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Which is why 1 Cor. 2:8 says: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it , they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Judas was the vessel used.

Why would Satan have to enter someone who already is a devil? Just makes me wonder.

Oh, well, it was the plan Stan. . . .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I do think some here are saying the Christian does not have to do the work of repenting of his sins, else he is trying to earn his salvation.

From what you posted, you see that one must repent BEFORE he can be saved. Must confess BEFORE he can be saved. SO you have these righteous works coming BEFORE salvation - which is correct.

I would not call repenting a "work". Repenting is changing one's mind - realizing that they need Christ and turning to him.

But then you posted "Will works result from my salvation - yes."
Good works will result from being saved - we turn from selfishness to loving others. We tend more to look more to the care of others than ourselves. We will produce the fruit of the Spirit.

So here you go in reverse and say one is FIRST saved, THEN he does the workd or repetnace and confession.

Why would I repent if I had nothing to place my faith in? Why would I repent if I didn't have faith?

You posted "Do I have to work for my salvation? NO"

So you do not have to FIRST do the works of believing, repenting confessing and submitting to baptism BEFORE you are saved?

Until one does works, he remains an unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ and lost in his unremitted/unforgiven sins.

The only "work" I have to do, if you want to call it a work is to believe on the only begotten Son.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To me it's a privilege - not what I would consider "work".

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Judas was just as saved as the other 11 disciples of Christ per Lk 6.

Read Matthew chapter 10 and remember that everything said here about the apostles INCLUDES Judas...Judas had the power of the HS to heal, to speak by inspiration and Jesus said anyone that received Judas was the same as receiveng Christ, v40.

Judas died before Acts 2:38 came into effect so he was never held accountable to this water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, so he was never born again by this baptism.

Water baptism - or "ceremonial washings" were throughout the OT. I don't know why you mentioned water baptism. I said that Judas was never filled with the Holy Spirit - the holy Spirit was not available until Jesus Christ ascension. None of the disciples were filled with the holy Spirit - only baptized unto John's baptism. They had holy Spirit upon them but the "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", i.e. holy Spirit, was not yet given (John 7:39).

 

[Bookends]

[h=3]1 Corinthians 15[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality[/h]15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

In other words, not everyone's conversion is genuine. Some people may set their eyes on the master's goods, and not the master Himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why would I repent if I had nothing to place my faith in? Why would I repent if I didn't have faith?

exactly, It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent. If God did not do all the work. if he did not offer the "good news" if he did not promise to keep his word. we would have no ability to trust him, thus no ability to repent.

All we have to do is sit still and trust him, and say Yes Lord, I want your gift. He does all the heavy lifting (work)

 

[SarahM777]

All we have to do is sit still and trust him, and say Yes Lord, I want your gift. He does all the heavy lifting (work)

Chapter and verse please. I can't find that in my Bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Chapter and verse please. I can't find that in my Bible.

oh you can't? its all over the bible. not in those exact words. but you get the jist, unless you wish to excert your power and your work to help him save you

wow. so what work do you think you coul ddo to make yourself worthy of Gods GIFT?

 

[SarahM777]

oh you can't? its all over the bible. not in those exact words. but you get the jist, unless you wish to excert your power and your work to help him save you

wow. so what work do you think you coul ddo to make yourself worthy of Gods GIFT?

Sorry EG but how you stated it,you make it sound like you promoting a DEAD faith. The Bible is very clear that works comes OUT of a living breathing faith. You can NOT find that the Bible implies that faith is PASSIVE,faith MUST be ACTIVE,otherwise it is DEAD.

You can not find where I ever said WORKS saves one.

 

[SarahM777]

oh you can't? its all over the bible. not in those exact words. but you get the jist, unless you wish to excert your power and your work to help him save you

wow. so what work do you think you coul ddo to make yourself worthy of Gods GIFT?

You are aware that if Noah had truly believed in his heart that God was going to flood the world,BUT NEVER BUILT the ark he would of drowned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are aware that if Noah had truly believed in his heart that God was going to flood the world,BUT NEVER BUILT the ark he would of drowned.

And? What does that have to do with SAVING US? Do you need to build an ark to save yourself?

Noah had faith. that is what saved him. His work was BECAUSE of his faith. He was saved BECAUSE HE HAD FAITH.

Rom 4 shows us this quite well. Abraham was not saved by his work. He was saved BY HIS FAITH. His work came as a RESULT of his faith and salvation.

Again. What work could you POSSIBLY do to help save yourself? do you really think God needs your help to produce the gift of eternal life in you he said is a gift to you?