Replacement theology? Yes or No.

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With the other books of the we first read the book to determine the date, so determining the date first to understand Revelation is kind of like putting the cart before the horse.

A few of date indicators within Revelation include John being requested to "measure" the temple and those that worship in it (11:1), indicating that the temple was not yet destroyed at the time of the vision, ie before 70AD.
The 2 witnesses in that chapter also prophesy in Jerusalem "a thousand two hundred and threescore days".
Jerusalem is identified in v.8, and in the passage appears to be populated and not yet destroyed.

Having identified the "great city" of 11:8 as Jerusalem, we already have the identity of the harlot in chapter 17.
We are told a great deal about this harlot, and it would be difficult to miss her identity.
The harlot seems alive and well as she sits on the beast (17:3), and the relationship between the woman and the beast has not yet become openly hostile.
This beast is identified as Rome in 17:9 by the seven mountains, but John seems to hope that mainly Christians will understand this identification, ie "the mind which hath wisdom".
In 17:16 John also predicts the Roman destruction of Jerusalem as future.

I have only covered these two chapters, because they are fresh in my mind from a recent conversation with @OMC, but the whole book is full if similar date indicators.

We could of course consider the possibility that Revelation was written after these events, explaining the past rather than predicting the future.
If we were discussing Moses writing Genesis that would be the case, but with Revelation I doubt it.
We are told that the book is about things that must shortly come to pass, not events of the past.

For people interested in exploring this view of Revelation I will also post a sermon by Chuck Baldwin.
At this point in time I find no reason not to endorse the things said in this sermon:


When reading Revelation 11, pay attention to the "woes".

Revelation 11:14 - The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

What happens after each woe in the book of Revelation?

Here's the A.I. quick summary description:

The three woes in the Book of Revelation are severe judgments pronounced by an angel flying overhead (Revelation 8:13) that correspond to the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpet blasts. These events represent escalating divine wrath intended to punish evil and spur repentance among the inhabitants of the earth before the final establishment of God’s kingdom.

The First Woe (Fifth Trumpet): This woe involves the release of demonic locusts from the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11). These creatures, described with human and scorpion-like features, are permitted to torment non-believers for five months but are forbidden to kill them. This judgment highlights God's sovereignty by limiting the duration and scope of the suffering.

The Second Woe (Sixth Trumpet): This woe is triggered by the release of four angels bound at the Euphrates River (Revelation 9:13-21). These angels lead a cavalry of 200 million troops that kill one-third of humanity through fire, smoke, and sulfur. Despite this massive loss of life, the survivors refuse to repent of their idolatry and murders.

The Third Woe (Seventh Trumpet): This final woe marks the consummation of God’s plan and the end of judgment (Revelation 11:15-19). It signals the transition to Christ’s eternal reign, the defeat of evil, and the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth. This woe also encompasses the pouring out of the seven bowls of wrath (Revelation 16), representing the final and complete judgment on sin.
 
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People were saved by grace through their faith in God/Jesus. Period. The Bible tells us that it was accounted to Abraham for his level of righteousness.

Jesus told you He knew Abraham in John 8:56-58.

Jesus told you that Moses wrote about Him in John 5:46.

Paul told you that Jesus was the Rock that followed Moses and the rest of them through the desert in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

So then you agree the "ekklesia" was is not a distinct age but has always been a distinct "saved" group from the beginning.

That is why Covenant theology is the correct understanding and dispensationalism is wrong.
 
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People were saved by grace through their faith in God/Jesus. Period. The Bible tells us that it was accounted to Abraham for his level of righteousness.

Jesus told you He knew Abraham in John 8:56-58.

Jesus told you that Moses wrote about Him in John 5:46.

Paul told you that Jesus was the Rock that followed Moses and the rest of them through the desert in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
Very good.
Only Jesus.
 
propaganda
So the opposite side of Jesus is not murdering innocent, is advocating for pure and holy life as Jesus teaching? Is not advocating LGBT stuff? Is not mocking Jesus? Is claiming Jesus is honest and He is son of God?

Then the opposite side is already following Jesus teaching, they can be called Christian now.

If that's true.
 
So then you agree the "ekklesia" was is not a distinct age but has always been a distinct "saved" group from the beginning.

That is why Covenant theology is the correct understanding and dispensationalism is wrong.

Yes, I agree that there has always been a saved group from the beginning.

What you don't seem to understand about "Covenant theology" is dispensationalism IS a part of that Covenant Theology. While Jesus made a New Covenant with us, there are still Covenants that will be fulfilled and we know this from what Jesus said in....

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Old Testament shows us where God/Jesus will include a remnant of Israel/the House of David/House of Jacob and bring them into the New Covenant at a later date in the future.

Here is a New Testament verse that also confirms that...

Luke 1:32-33

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

This is confirmed in...

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

It's not until after God/Jesus' earthly reign that we see everyone coming together in the New Jerusalem as described in Revelation, chapters 21 & 22.
 
Not sure how many times I have to repeat this but here we go again.....

There was no New Testament gospel in the old testament before Jesus came in the flesh that was sent to the gentiles because the Jews rejected Jesus

All that went down in the New Covenant.

You did understand that there was an old covenant that Jesus came to take away so He could establish the New Covenant right?



Those approved by the Lord in the OT were not referred to as the Body of Christ

The "ekklesia" is found approx. 100 times in the OT and Christ Jesus used the same word to describe the covenant people of God the NT.

This is some form of hyper-dispensationalism definitely not taught in scripture.

God promised Abraham in Genesis 12:3 that "all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Then we have the Apostle Paul who explicitly and clearly refers to this event in Galatians 3:8, stating that "the Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham."
 
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The church (ekkelesia) was present in the OT as already shown over and over.

No one reads scripture and finds dispensationalism, no one, but it can be a constructed with an end goal in mind, by highlighting certain verses and downplaying the others, you know the usual approach of false systems.
Why bother answering cv5, you have not the grey matter according to the mighty one (cv5), only he is worthy.
 
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So the opposite side of Jesus is not murdering innocent, is advocating for pure and holy life as Jesus teaching? Is not advocating LGBT stuff? Is not mocking Jesus? Is claiming Jesus is honest and He is son of God?

Then the opposite side is already following Jesus teaching, they can be called Christian now.

If that's true.

Real time, daily video footage is not propaganda.
Give me a break!!!
 
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Why bother answering cv5, you have not the grey matter according to the mighty one (cv5), only he is worthy.

Yes pointless indeed!!

And let it be noted that intelligence is no protection against a propagandized mind.

Once your brain forms those connections, very hard to re-wire, especially if it happened while young, especially for those bought up in these politicized churches even more challenging for the person to break free.

I am seriously seeing Jesus is just an add on in the dispensational movement that has been well-marketed.
So disturbing to use Jesus, the Bible, this way as a cover.
 
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Yes pointless indeed!!

And let it be noted that intelligence is no protection against a propagandized mind.

Once your brain forms those connections, very hard to re-wire, especially if it happened while young, especially for those bought up in these politicized churches even more challenging for the person to break free.

I am seriously seeing Jesus is just an add on in the dispensational movement that has been well-marketed.
So disturbing to use Jesus, the Bible, this way as a cover.
I would replace intelligence with brainwashed, the brainwashed always think they are very intelligent when they drink the cool aid
 
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Yes, I agree that there has always been a saved group from the beginning.

What you don't seem to understand about "Covenant theology" is dispensationalism IS a part of that Covenant Theology. While Jesus made a New Covenant with us, there are still Covenants that will be fulfilled and we know this from what Jesus said in....

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Old Testament shows us where God/Jesus will include a remnant of Israel/the House of David/House of Jacob and bring them into the New Covenant at a later date in the future.

Here is a New Testament verse that also confirms that...

Luke 1:32-33

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

This is confirmed in...

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

It's not until after God/Jesus' earthly reign that we see everyone coming together in the New Jerusalem as described in Revelation, chapters 21 & 22.
All of the scripture quoting are very good, none of the scripture telling Christians to support a secular system.

That is the point.

Christians are only called to follow Jesus commands.
 
Yes, I agree that there has always been a saved group from the beginning.

What you don't seem to understand about "Covenant theology" is dispensationalism IS a part of that Covenant Theology. While Jesus made a New Covenant with us, there are still Covenants that will be fulfilled and we know this from what Jesus said in....

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Old Testament shows us where God/Jesus will include a remnant of Israel/the House of David/House of Jacob and bring them into the New Covenant at a later date in the future.

Here is a New Testament verse that also confirms that...

Luke 1:32-33

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

This is confirmed in...

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

It's not until after God/Jesus' earthly reign that we see everyone coming together in the New Jerusalem as described in Revelation, chapters 21 & 22.

Christ Jesus is on the throne, in the hearts for those who have believed/trusted in Him.
 
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Oh so what is this latest heresy? You are now declaring that in fact the congregation of the Children of Israel under the Mosaic Covenant are no different than the mystery New Man, the gentile ***virgin*** Bride the Body of Christ?

[Col 1:26-27 KJV]
26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

And there you go folks. You are witnesses. Behold in shock and awe the profound error of the supercessionists.

The "mystery" is not the existence of a brand new people's of God called "The Church"

The mystery was that the the Gentiles were able to come into Israel's covenant people without going through physical circumcision and the rest of it.

And guess what, the early church consisted of both Gentiles and Jews, which once again shows this idea of Church Age as a parenthesis as nonsense.

My last reply to you for the sake of others who may be learning.
 
Christ Jesus is on the throne, in the hearts for those who have believed/trusted in Him.

The Holy Spirit is currently in our hearts as a placeholder until Jesus returns like He told His Disciples in John 14, specifically John 14:3.

John 14:3

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
 
The Holy Spirit is currently in our hearts as a placeholder until Jesus returns like He told His Disciples in John 14, specifically John 14:3.

John 14:3

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


That is not earthly, that is in heaven.
 
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The "mystery" is not the existence of a brand new people's of God called "The Church"

The mystery was that the the Gentiles were able to come into Israel's covenant people without going through physical circumcision and the rest of it.

And guess what, the early church consisted of both Gentiles and Jews, which once again shows this idea of Church Age as a parenthesis as nonsense.

My last reply to you for the sake of others who may be learning.
I see converted Israel as the bride and the converted not of Israel as the body, or the wedding guests, but see them all as the church. The difference between the old covenant with Judah and Israel and the New is that everyone Jew and Gentile is welcomed into it.

The called out ones in the old and new is one story, one development. The whole bible is one story not separate dispensations.

Having said that, I use the tern the church age, but I mean that salvation is open to all now, I never thought about it being a dispensational term, but I am now :)
 
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