Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

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OMC said:
Your entire argument about “another remnant at the Second Coming” is built on the theological equivalent of duct tape and optimism, because Romans 11:4–5 doesn’t give you a future ethnic remnant waiting for Jesus to return — Paul uses Elijah’s seven thousand as an analogy for the present‑tense remnant (“even so at this present time”), not as a preview of a future national resurrection; the remnant is now, not “later when Jesus comes back to restore Israel again.”
Your claim that “the Bible mentions several instances of Israel going through judgment and God preserving a remnant” is true — but irrelevant — because Paul explicitly says the remnant he’s talking about is the one that exists during his ministry, not a prophetic placeholder for a future ethnic revival.
And your insistence that “there is still yet ANOTHER REMNANT He will save at His Second Coming” is exactly the kind of OT‑first hermeneutic Paul spends Romans 9–11 dismantling: he says not all Israel is Israel (Rom 9:6), he defines the children of Abraham as those of promise, not ethnicity (Rom 9:8), he says the remnant is present, not postponed (Rom 11:5), and he says grafting happens whenever they believe (Rom 11:23), not at a future mass conversion triggered by Jesus landing on the Mount of Olives like a prophetic optometrist.
Your “you must not know the Old Testament” jab is cute, but the apostles already told you how to read the OT — in Christ, not in a future ethnic reboot — which is why your system keeps collapsing under the weight of Romans 11 and Ephesians 2 one new man.
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Funny how you're still leaving out an explanation for the meaning of the "fullness of the Gentiles coming in". The grafting back in doesn't happen until their blindness and hardening is lifted. The reason the Jews are blinded is because God/Jesus needs them to be in order to fulfill the entire plan THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN. The WRITTEN PLAN that Jesus said that He would fulfill in Luke 24:44.

The Apostles didn't reveal everything written in the Old Testament. You need to read Revelation again to see what God revealed to everyone after the majority of the Apostles were dead.

By the way, we've talked extensively about a "restored" earth, what do you think that restoration is for? Why is the 1,000 years being singled out? While you APPEAR to agree with it happening, you've never explained WHY you believe it or what it's purpose is. As I recall now, you've taken that back today and claim it never happens.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
Funny how you're still leaving out an explanation for the meaning of the "fullness of the Gentiles coming in". The grafting back in doesn't happen until their blindness and hardening is lifted. The reason the Jews are blinded is because God/Jesus needs them to be in order to fulfill the entire plan THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN. The WRITTEN PLAN that Jesus said that He would fulfill in Luke 24:44.

The Apostles didn't reveal everything written in the Old Testament. You need to read Revelation again to see what God revealed to everyone after the majority of the Apostles were dead.

By the way, we've talked extensively about a "restored" earth, what do you think that restoration is for? Why is the 1,000 years being singled out? While you APPEAR to agree with it happening, you've never explained WHY you believe it or what it's purpose is. As I recall now, you've taken that back today and claim it never happens.
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Your whole objection is just you trying to duct‑tape your timeline back together by insisting “fullness of the Gentiles” means “Jesus waits until every last Gentile is saved,” but Paul never says that — he uses πλήρωμα the same way he always does, as the ingathering of the nations, not a cosmic countdown; and your claim that “blindness doesn’t lift until Jesus returns” collapses the moment you read Paul’s actual words: “whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away” (2 Cor 3:16).
You keep stapling Zechariah’s mourning onto Romans as if repentance = ophthalmology, and then you try to rescue your system by saying “the apostles didn’t reveal everything,” which is just code for “Revelation must contradict Paul so my timeline survives.”
As for your millennium question, the NT never gives you a 1,000‑year ethnic restoration, never gives you a land‑based reboot, and never gives you a “restored earth for Israel’s hierarchy”; it gives you one people, one body, one new man now, which is why your entire framework keeps getting flattened by one_new_man and Israel_in_Christ — the very texts your system has to ignore to stay alive.
 
tttallison said:
This is God bringing dead Israel back to life after the millennium. How can it be anything else? The second death will have power here, but how it all plays out I do not know. In the first resurrection prior to the millennium the second death has no power, and the implication is that the second death will have power over the second resurrection, meaning, IMO, that some will be saved and some will not.
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I agree with most of that. I guess at this point the only differences we have is whether the dead Israel is restored during the Millennial period or afterwards.
 
OMC said:
Your whole objection is just you trying to duct‑tape your timeline back together by insisting “fullness of the Gentiles” means “Jesus waits until every last Gentile is saved,” but Paul never says that — he uses πλήρωμα the same way he always does, as the ingathering of the nations, not a cosmic countdown; and your claim that “blindness doesn’t lift until Jesus returns” collapses the moment you read Paul’s actual words: “whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away” (2 Cor 3:16).
You keep stapling Zechariah’s mourning onto Romans as if repentance = ophthalmology, and then you try to rescue your system by saying “the apostles didn’t reveal everything,” which is just code for “Revelation must contradict Paul so my timeline survives.”
As for your millennium question, the NT never gives you a 1,000‑year ethnic restoration, never gives you a land‑based reboot, and never gives you a “restored earth for Israel’s hierarchy”; it gives you one people, one body, one new man now, which is why your entire framework keeps getting flattened by one_new_man and Israel_in_Christ — the very texts your system has to ignore to stay alive.
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Ditto. Your whole objection here is just to try and duct-tape YOUR version of prophecy.

Not every Jew's blindness will lift until the fountain is opened up in the house of David like Zechariah 13:1 says. It happens when Jesus returns to cut off the idols, sin, and uncleanliness from the house of David.

Revelation & Paul don't contradict each other, you're interpretation of it does.

So, you consider the "restored earth" as Heaven? We've already been through this. The description of Heaven in Revelation 21 & 22 don't match the restored earth labeled in the book of Isaiah.

The Bible clearly shows an earthly kingdom where day, night, and a temple still exist, while Heaven does not. You've never been able to dodge that with your responses.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
Ditto. Your whole objection here is just to try and duct-tape YOUR version of prophecy.

Not every Jew's blindness will lift until the fountain is opened up in the house of David like Zechariah 13:1 says. It happens when Jesus returns to cut off the idols, sin, and uncleanliness from the house of David.

Revelation & Paul don't contradict each other, you're interpretation of it does.

So, you consider the "restored earth" as Heaven? We've already been through this. The description of Heaven in Revelation 21 & 22 don't match the restored earth labeled in the book of Isaiah.

The Bible clearly shows an earthly kingdom where day, night, and a temple still exist, while Heaven does not. You've never been able to dodge that with your responses.
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Friend, the reason every conversation with you circles the drain is because you’re not actually defending Scripture — you’re defending a system that predetermines the outcome before the text is even opened; you’re committed to a dispensational_framework where Israel must get a future ethnic kingdom, blindness must stay locked until Jesus returns, Isaiah must be literal, Revelation must be chronological, and Paul must be reinterpreted so he doesn’t ruin the chart.
Once someone is welded to that architecture, no amount of exegesis matters: every NT passage that contradicts the system gets reclassified as “not fully revealed yet,” every OT passage gets treated like a blueprint for a future Jewish state, and every correction gets waved off as “your interpretation.”
You’re not weighing Romans_11 or one_new_man — you’re filtering them through a timeline that cannot be wrong in your mind, which is why every exchange ends the same way: people quote the apostles, and you quote your chart.
“Kobayashi Maru”
 
OMC said:
Saying “I never claimed Israel’s restored monarchy” doesn’t fix the problem, because your model still assumes the very thing the NT never teaches — that the literal, modern state of Israel is the divinely chosen staging ground for Jesus’ earthly millennial kingdom. That claim is not found in any NT text. The NT affirms Israel’s priority, Israel’s Messiah, Israel’s promises — but it never says the millennium begins from Israel as a geopolitical state. That’s the jump your system keeps making, and the apostles never make it.
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Bravo 👏
 
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OMC said:
Friend, the reason every conversation with you circles the drain is because you’re not actually defending Scripture — you’re defending a system that predetermines the outcome before the text is even opened; you’re committed to a dispensational_framework where Israel must get a future ethnic kingdom, blindness must stay locked until Jesus returns, Isaiah must be literal, Revelation must be chronological, and Paul must be reinterpreted so he doesn’t ruin the chart.
Once someone is welded to that architecture, no amount of exegesis matters: every NT passage that contradicts the system gets reclassified as “not fully revealed yet,” every OT passage gets treated like a blueprint for a future Jewish state, and every correction gets waved off as “your interpretation.”
You’re not weighing Romans_11 or one_new_man — you’re filtering them through a timeline that cannot be wrong in your mind, which is why every exchange ends the same way: people quote the apostles, and you quote your chart.
“Kobayashi Maru”
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No, the difference between you and I and the reason it circles is because you're not defending ALL of the scriptures. You're only trying to defend one Apostle's version of it. One that was geared toward preaching to the Gentiles and not the Jews.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
No, the difference between you and I and the reason it circles is because you're not defending ALL of the scriptures. You're only trying to defend one Apostle's version of it. One that was geared toward preaching to the Gentiles and not the Jews.
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“Kobayashi Maru”
 
Revelation1v8 said:
I'm seriously doubting that. Excuses are what people use who don't have anything to contribute.
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You didn't get the message about foul language not being of the Lord so obviously you're not going to get much else.

Do you use that kinda language around your mother? What about your wife? Around Little kids?
 
ScooterJackson said:
You didn't get the message about foul language not being of the Lord so obviously you're not going to get much else.
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I did get the message. I apologized. Now you want to harp on it and derail the discussion. Why do you feel the need to do that? You're only leading me to believe that you have no idea what we're talking about.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
I did get the message. I apologized.
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I'm not the one you should be apologizing to.
The Lord does not lead His people to use foul language so you should repent to Him.

I was just trying to help you out since so many today are taught a fake gospel where they think it's OK to use foul language as well as engage in other sinful activities and they think it's no big deal.

Glad you know using foul language is wrong. I'm not your judge so I'm not the one to repent to.
 
ScooterJackson said:
I'm not the one you should be apologizing to.
The Lord does not lead His people to use foul language so you should repent to Him.

I was just trying to help you out since so many today are taught a fake gospel where they think it's OK to use foul language as well as engage in other sinful activities and they think it's no big deal.

Glad you know using foul language is wrong. I'm not your judge so I'm not the one to repent to.
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Thanks for helping out! Now let's hear your view on the Millennial Kingdom period.

Do you believe it exists? Do you believe it happens after Jesus' return or before? Do you have scripture to back up your view?
 
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