having taken some time to do more reading on the issues based on what you wrote, i wanted to address a few of the assertions covered in our previous discussion. you make some valid points, that do check out, for example, some jewish leaders are saying
they are not alarmed by any antisemitic neo-fascist element from within the ukrainians themselves. some are saying it's non-existent!
i found this very surprising, since (as i posted), there are
other jewish commentators saying the opposite.
the issue of jewish citizens of the region being the most able to spot fascism truthfully hadn't occurred to me until you suggested it, and backed it up with quotations. the notion
seemed reasonable, but as you saw from the commentators i posted (and there are many others we can look at), there appears to widely differing opinions on that within the jewish communities, both inside the region and outside.
so i tried to determine primarily the "right/left" leanings of the writers to see where any biases might be lodged. this wasn't very fruitful, and in fact added some credence to my own position that this
not a left/right issue.
it does appear to be an historical/ethnic conflict exacerbated by modern affilations, changing alliances and regime changes.
i suggest the west is as responsible for subversions of eastern regimes as any that take place within eastern nations themselves.
it's complicated to say the least.
i followed your citations and it is true there appears to be a portion of jewish commentators making clear proclamations that there were/are no serious threats from
non-russian fascists in the ukraine conflict.
here are some quotations from a statement from the all ukrainian jewish congress on the situation for jews in ukraine...
would you agree that the quotations i posted are
also from jewish spokesmen on the ukraine issue? they say
the opposite of the quotations you chose.
why the jewish leaders disagree on the issue, i'm not sure.
however, if the jewish community in ukraine itself is not concerned, and in fact is downplaying or outright denying there is any danger from the the far-right
Svoboda party holding
key posts in the new ukrainian government (which will make it easy for them to consolidate more power), this is something to be kept in mind.
as you mentioned, they should be able to recognize fascism.
Svoboda may not hold
large numbers of seats (as your 8% indicated) but their
positions are
key and represent real power. their open and public, published and provocative slurs (K****) are
very disturbing as far as i am concerned.
having said all that, i was hoping you could address a few questions i'm wrestling with on this matter, as you seem to be well-informed, although clearly biased against anything russian. please don't take this as an insult, as we all have biases based on both real life experiences and our education and study (or lack of it), myself included.
at the end of the day, i don't care who ends up being the fascists, just that we clearly identify them based on real facts. and the do need to be identified. if they are ethnic russians (putin in particular), so be it. but we would want to see plenty of evidence.
we do know that putin expelled and punished some "oligarchs" who are knon to have been looting russia, and we know ukraine has some as well. don't all nations? of course. we have our own. we also know putin got tough on homosexual propagandizing and what he described as assaults on family values. now this may be a ruse to crack down, or it may be what he says it is. one thing i do know, christians in the US and the west are always clamoring for these very things. but putin somehow doing it makes him a fascist?
possibly. but i personally would like to see a little less gay propoganda aimed at children. again, i have biases as well.
this is from CNN
Opinion: Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists - CNN.com
Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists
By David Speedie
There are some known facts: First, far-right, anti-Semitic, anti-Russian and openly fascist groups have existed and do exist as a blight on modern Ukraine. A 2012 European Parliament resolution condemned the main -- but by no means most extreme -- ultra-right party, Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic."
i was unable to determine if david speedie is just expressing his own bias.
and....there's the matter of your position on the vandalized synagogue...
simferopol is occupied by russian troops...who claim to be there to protect the rights of minorities among other things...the reason 'no suspects have been identified' in the case of the vandalized synagogue is because russia doesn't actually care about anti semitism...
there's no way you could
know and state categorically this is the reason there have been no suspects identified - that russia doesn't care about antisemitism.
just saying "russia" includes millions of diverse people, and i have no doubt many of them
do care about antisemitism. do you mean to say all ethnic russians are antisemitic?
i don't think a russian nationalist (and ethnic/racial) leaning toward hatred of jews has been demonstrated, as we saw in the conflicting comments by leaders of the jewish communities we each posted.
more obviously, and fairly, i would propose that in the midst of a serious conflict involving several countries and millions of people, do we expect that a case of vandalism (however vile) is going to be on the top of the case files for investigation ("suspects identified")?
there is undoubtedly hateful graffiti
everywhere in the region, many hating on others whoever they are.
so your comment was a little disappointing in that it didn't advance your
factual case, and actually revealed your bias.
which is not intended as an insult, just a reminder that we all have biases.
to put that into perspective...the main openly fascist party in russia...the liberal democratic party of russia...holds over 12% of the seats in russia's parliament...and their leader is actually the vice chairman of the lower house of the russian parliament... yet i don't see putin's supporters warning of russia's imminent descent into neo fascism...
well, you would expect to see putin's
detractors warning of that. which is what we do see. yourself among them.
but the questions remain, is the truth somewhere in the middle?
is it
really our concern in the US?
should our leaders be so quickly mouthing off about the issue and threatening, yet again?
in other words, can we really have this debate without considering the astonishing claims from the west (US & EU) of our supposed democratic, reasonable, freedom-loving and peacekeeping activity around the globe which we know to be untrue this century?
i have some serious concerns about our own leaders and their remarks and clear intention to interfere in the internal affairs of the nations in question.
this article by mark lippman about stephen cohen's opinions includes a transcript of the intercepted phone call between Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, and Geoffrey R. Pyatt, US Ambassador to Ukraine.
what do you make of it?
THU FEB 20, 2014
Stephen Cohen accuses Obama Administration of Coup Attempt in Ukraine
Mark Lippman
Stephen Cohen accuses Obama Administration of Coup Attempt in Ukraine