Saved by faith alone?

[Magenta]

Read the context of spiritual gifts and functions in the Body again and think about all the ways "faith" is discussed.

The way I read the Text, God gave us the functions of perceptions, reasoning, choice, belief, infused into us knowledge of His existence, power, divinity, justice, righteousness, then identified His Son to us and what He has provided for us in His Son and thereby has provided not only the capacity to believe but the information He requires us to believe and He draws men to His Son by teaching them.

When I see this measure of faith in the context of spiritual gifts and functions of gifts in the Body for the benefit of the entire Body, I'm not seeing a measure of Faith to believe in His Son, but to function in the Body of Christ.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[studier]

In the Greek both faith and belief come from the same root word, one being a noun and the other a verb.

And "demons believe" is not about only mental assent.... the dividing line is correct belief or incorrect belief for salvation.

"correct belief or incorrect belief for salvation" leaves me with questions and rings with ambiguity. As I just said to another, the demons' issue is rebellion - lack of submission - and obviously no [good] works associated with their belief in who God is.

The issue with demons is not salvation but the choice of submission to a god vs. God.

 

[Magenta]

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Cameron143]

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Pesky little natural man.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Signs of faith show of course. Working to get a gold brick in your mansion is a catholic thing and I think such beiefs do more harm than good. Best blessing I ever heard at the end of church is " go and treat people a little better" Is that instruction to works?

I agree
James is not telling us to be fruit inspectors. He is telling people who appear to be hearers only to test their faith

 

[HeIsHere]

"correct belief or incorrect belief for salvation" leaves me with questions and rings with ambiguity. As I just said to another, the demons' issue is rebellion - lack of submission - and obviously no [good] works associated with their belief in who God is.

The issue with demons is not salvation but the choice of submission to a god vs. God.

My statement with regards to "correct belief and incorrect belief" was in reference to humans not demons.

I agree that faith and belief come from the same root word in the Greek and the concept of mental assent is not a thing in scripture, that stems from Augustine ( and still persists) who did not really understand the book of James.

I also agree the issue with demons is not about belief at all but about the choice some made with regards to submission to a god vs. God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I understand this point, but that is not what James is writing on.

it’s exactly what he is writing on
if you claim to have faith and have no works period can that claimed faith save you

Also, people say words, this does not mean they understand nor necessarily believe what they have stated.

I agree. Again you can see if they do what they say do they actually trust those words

 

[HeIsHere]

I agree
James is not telling us to be fruit inspectors. He is telling people who appear to be hearers only to test their faith

How exactly does the person with who is not saved test their faith by works, when many non-believers are capable of doing good works sometimes far above the born again person?

 

[HeIsHere]

it’s exactly what he is writing on
if you claim to have faith and have no works period can that claimed faith save you

I agree. Again you can see if they do what they say do they actually trust those words

Works can never save us spiritually so no James is not writing about spiritual salvation but the saving of the soul.

 

[Magenta]

Pesky little natural man.

It is shocking how few accept what Scripture actually says. They act as if everyone
hears as a natural course of events simply because they have physical ears that detect
sound when Jesus told us everyone does NOT hear, and He told us the reason why, also.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Seems then James forget to tell them how to receive eternal life.

He was not telling them how
he was addressing their lack of faith

 

[Magenta]

Pesky little natural man.

He is quite an inconvenient truth for many, apparently, and so inconvenient they prefer to ignore him entirely.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

My statement with regards to "correct belief and incorrect belief" was in reference to humans not demons.

I agree that faith and belief come from the same root word in the Greek and the concept of mental assent is not a thing in scripture, that stems from Augustine ( and still persists) who did not really understand the book of James.

I also agree the issue with demons is not about belief at all but about the choice some made with regards to submission to a god vs. God.

Do you trust God
do you trust self
Do you trust your church or your oastor
Do you trust satan

How you act or what you say or do (works) will usually reveal this

 

[Magenta]

It may be helpful to remember that prior to Augustine no one posited two kinds of faith aka "demonic intellectual faith" and "heart faith."

Another contribution in the long list of Augustinian heresy.

Scripture is where believing in one's heart was put forth as a necessity/requirement for salvation.

This does distinguish it from mere mental assent.

Do you also reject the Augustinian popularized view of eternal conscious torment?

 

[studier]

studier, lol believing and faith are to me not the same. example one can believe they are going to a store, but when you go to start your car, it will not start, now you believe that you will not go to the store until you fix your car. lol FAITH is assurance! meaning that even though your car will not start you still going to the store! And so, you walk! Did you think when the Jews came upon the Red Sea, they believed they would ever cross it?? Moses Faith took they place of what others believed. (Exodus 14) The Lord gives the assurance of what others think cannot be done. FAITH!! (Hebrews 11:1!!) ponder this if you will my friend.

I'm simply working FROM the Text and the language of the Text. Faith, Belief and Trust are all within the definition of pistis and though some of these illustrations are clever, none of them really interest me. If we're going to discuss and haggle over anything my preference is actually to do so FROM the Text - rather than adding another layer to it.

FWIW, IMO, there are some words in Heb11:1 that are worthy of more considerations than the translations are showing us. As for things like assurance and such, we can see these associated with Abraham's faith as it gets elaborated late in Rom4 dealing with things from Gen22 area (as I recall) and tying them back to his belief and credited righteousness stated in Gen15.

There are concepts of weak faith and strong faith in the Text, genuine faith and thus non-genuine faith, and there are several words attached to belief/faith to help us understand what God says it is. Ultimately belief in God and faith in God are the same thing as long as we've let His Word define and explain it for us.

 

[HeIsHere]

He was not telling them how
he was addressing their lack of faith

So they were saved (had eternal life) but were not strong in their faith, but if they did more works they would strengthen their faith.
Yes I think that works does have a role to play in strengthening one's faith.

I agree that James is wanting them to grow in faith, but earlier your argument was (at least as I read it) some did not possess eternal life?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How exactly does the person with who is not saved test their faith by works, when many non-believers are capable of doing good works sometimes far above the born again person?

The context of James 2 is people who
Claim have faith but have no works
so if someone is doing works. Then James is not talking to them

 

[Cameron143]

He is quite an inconvenient truth for many, apparently, and so inconvenient they prefer to ignore him entirely.

I'm amazed so many leave out the supernatural aspect of salvation. Faith is the result of hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God. Faith being birthed in an individual that begets salvation isn't conjured through mere natural reasoning or endeavor. It is a real coming of God to an individual to make them His own.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Works can never save us spiritually so no James is not writing about spiritual salvation but the saving of the soul.

No
He is talking to people in the church who boast or claim they have faith. But do nothing to show they ever had faith