Saved by Water

[Wansvic]

As I said before you have placed your salvation on a work that you do. You do not trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus.
So when you stand before God and He asks you why He should let you into His heaven are you going to say "because I was baptized or because I trusted in the finished work on the cross?" Hint one is your works the other is His.

No thoughts on what was actually posted (#175) about John chapter three?

 

[Wansvic]

Please be careful making assertions like this. The word water isn’t in any version of Acts 2:38 that I have ever seen.

“Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!”
‭‭Acts of Emissaries of Yeshua (Act)‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/act.2.38.CJB

Tell me what baptism is taking place when it is done in the name of the Lord Jesus in every instance in the bible? This question is easily answered if one actually looks at the scriptures. There is no dispute.

 

[mailmandan]

I never thought of it this way before, but I believe you are right. When it says a man must be born of water and the Spirit...It is talking about the spiritual water or the water of life.

Revelation 22:17 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Amen! In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism.

In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

 

[mailmandan]

As I said before you have placed your salvation on a work that you do. You do not trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus...

Sadly, many who 'profess' to be Christians do not trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, but instead trust in their works for salvation. In the end we will either stand before the Lord saying Lord, Lord didn't WE or Lord, Lord didn't YOU. Only those who trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation will be in the latter group.

 

[Wansvic]

Actually it doesn’t. In Greek these are the words:

ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος
water and wind

So, you could see this as two metaphors for the Spirit.

You are not comparing apples with apples. The first two scriptures speak of the Spirit in terms of living water. Whereas the water and Spirit references in John 3:5 are distinct from one another.

John 7:38-39
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 4:13-14
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[JBTN]

You are not comparing apples with apples. The first two scriptures speak of the Spirit in terms of living water. Whereas the water and Spirit references in John 3:5 are distinct from one another.

John 3:5 in Greek

ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

water and wind

Two metaphors for the Spirit. It’s like referring to a wall as bricks and mortar.

 

[Wansvic]

John 3:5 in Greek

ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

water and wind

Two metaphors for the Spirit. It’s like referring to a wall as bricks and mortar.

So according to you the scripture should read
unless a man is born of Spirit and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom. Hummm. I wonder why it doesn't say that?

 

[mailmandan]

Jeremiah 2:13 - For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.

Jeremiah 17:13 - O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the Lord.

Isaiah 12:2 - Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For Yah, the Lord, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation. 3 Therefore with joy you will draw water From the wells of salvation.

 

[Wansvic]

John 3:5 in Greek

ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

water and wind

Two metaphors for the Spirit. It’s like referring to a wall as bricks and mortar.

Jewish NT Commentary for John 3:5:

John 3:5
Born from water and the Spirit. Immersion in water is connected with ritual cleansing of the body (see above, 1:26-34, and Mt 3:1-17), while the Holy Spirit gives power for turning from sin and living a holy life; both bespeak aspects of purification. This is why “born from water” does not mean ordinary human birth; moreover, since everyone is “born from water” in that sense, it would be silly for Yeshua to make a condition out of it with the word “unless.”
(from Jewish New Testament Commentary Copyright © 1992 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

 

[Wansvic]

John 3:5 in Greek

ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.

water and wind

Two metaphors for the Spirit. It’s like referring to a wall as bricks and mortar.

I disagree with your specific conclusion as to what the water is in John 3:5. However, your reference to bricks and mortar speak to a truth regarding water baptism. Since the literal water of baptism does not have mystical properties surely a Spiritual transaction is activated when one chooses to believe God and obeys His command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin. In addition, everyone must receive the Holy Spirit as well in order for the NT spiritual rebirth to be complete.

 

[1ofthem]

Amen! In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism.

In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

I've also heard people say that it is referring to NATURAL BIRTH, but that doesn't seem to be the case, either. Anyway, you look at it, it clearly isn't talking about WATER BAPTISM, though.

 

[Wansvic]

I've also heard people say that it is referring to NATURAL BIRTH, but that doesn't seem to be the case, either. Anyway, you look at it, it clearly isn't talking about WATER BAPTISM, though.

I respectfully disagree. The water and Spirit in the scripture could easily be what other scriptures point out specifically. The necessity for both water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6. And the apostle Paul's conversion experiences; 9:17-18 and 22:16)

 

[JBTN]

I've also heard people say that it is referring to NATURAL BIRTH, but that doesn't seem to be the case, either. Anyway, you look at it, it clearly isn't talking about WATER BAPTISM, though.

I am generally of the natural birth belief as I laid out in post #93, but I also don’t discount the possibility of water representing the word or as a metaphor for the spirit.

 

[Justified]

Some relevant points from the entire third chapter of John. The chapter's beginning includes Jesus saying unless a man is reborn he cannot SEE the kingdom. He goes on to say unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot ENTER the kingdom of God. These verses indicate two things distinct from one another must occur. In John 3:3 when reborn a person can SEE (recognize/perceive) the kingdom. In John 3:5 only after being born of water and Spirit can a person ENTER into the kingdom. The reader is also told that whosoever believes in the Son of God should not perish but have everlasting life. And that Jesus was sent into the world that through Him people might be saved. (verse 17) The chapter continues in verse 22 with the statement that after these things, Jesus and His disciples came baptizing. While John was baptizing in Aenon. Interesting that Aenon means fountain of the eye. This would seem to be consistent with the water portion of the rebirth experience being when a person's eyes of perception are open. Any thoughts?

I had started to write a response to this but then I thought why bother. You have had many people point out the error of your views but to no avail. I interacted with another Oneness Pentecostal and we went through all the same scriptures that you keep going back to. He, the same as you, could not or would not take into consideration other scripture that showed his and your view to be wrong.
If other people wish to continue to deal with you on this subject that is their choice but I have neither the time nor the inclination to waste my time on such a fruitless exercise. You are not looking for the truth you are looking for someone to justify your errant views.

 

[JBTN]

Tell me what baptism is taking place when it is done in the name of the Lord Jesus in every instance in the bible? This question is easily answered if one actually looks at the scriptures. There is no dispute.

The Greek word translated name here also means authority or cause.
Immersed in the cause of the Lord Jesus.
Immersed in the authority of the Lord Jesus.

 

[peldom10]

Water is a symbol. That's it. The Bible cannot be understood until we recognize symbolism and Living Allegories. To be clear: A person can be fully saved by the Work of Christ even if there isn't a single . . . drop . . . of water to be found . . . anywhere. Water baptism is the same reflection as was physical circumcision . . . they point to the same . . . exact . . . thing.

You should re consider that conclusion. I don't think Christ was circumcised...but, He was baptized.....?
Start with Acts 2; 38 and search for many more in scriptures.
Baptism is required....to complete the process of repentance.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1 Peter 3:20-21
“...God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”


I believe the water mentioned in 1 Peter 3:20-21 pertains to water baptism for the following reasons:

1.The water was the means God used to carry Noah and his family to safety. The sin of the world was washed away in the flood waters. The like figure or antitype is the NT water baptism. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

2. Notice verse 21 makes specific mention of the process having nothing to do with the removal of filth from the flesh. (This is a reference to bath water) Thus, the comment points to a spiritual transaction taking place.

3. The scripture mentions that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Our own behavior, and in this particular case getting baptized, is what prompts a good conscience. The result is to be free of guilt. God is the giver of the Holy Ghost and we have no control over that other than asking for Him to give it.

4. Lastly, the scripture specifies this is only made possible by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

it’s for sure a reference to baptism for remission of sins into Christ peters point here

“The scripture mentions that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God.”

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the thing that clears our conscience is because we’re taught and believe what he said baptism means of we accept this part ot cleanses our conscience

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s what God has said will remove our sins so it becomes a pledge from God that if we believe the gospel repent and get baptized our sins are gone. And the holy spirit can begin to manifest himself in our mind and heart through our belief hearing and believing Gods promises like this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


it’s never our action but always our belief in what God said will happen if we do what he said to do , it’s faith . In this case get baptized into christs name , and your sins will be remitted. But what makes it important and effective is if we first hear and then believe and doing becomes a result of faith

faith always involves a word of instruction and with it a great blessing in this case “ of you believe the gospel and get baptized our sins are remitted according to Gods pledge and our faith in him

It includes us with him on the cross , and that includes us in the resurrection of the righteous

 

[TMS]

You should re consider that conclusion. I don't think Christ was circumcised...but, He was baptized.....?
Start with Acts 2; 38 and search for many more in scriptures.
Baptism is required....to complete the process of repentance.

many will get baptised and not be saved, and many will be saved that have not been baptised.
It is the heart and character that counts. We should do all we can to be baptised as we were told but God will judge all cases individually.
Like i said we should follow Gods requests but a lack of baptism will not prevent those that were unable or unaware, Jesus has fulfilled all requirements for us and we do it to show who we are following, because baptism is symbolic of a change in heart. Symbolic of being born again.

 

[Justified]

You should re consider that conclusion. I don't think Christ was circumcised...but, He was baptized.....?
Start with Acts 2; 38 and search for many more in scriptures.
Baptism is required....to complete the process of repentance.

Actually since Christ Jesus was a Jew then on the eighth day he was circumcised. As far as your wanting to add your work to the already finished work of Christ Jesus well that question has been answered many times in this forum. If you do not wish to accept the truth of scripture then I am not sure what more help we can give you here.

 

[Wansvic]

You are not looking for the truth you are looking for someone to justify your errant views.

Not at all. I am looking to share truths as represented in God's word. Refusing to compare apples with apples is the real problem. We are told to study scripture, not echo what others teach as truth.