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I hate to write and have to continue with this rather long and repetitive post, but I really feel the need to mention two things.
1. I think Credo_Ut_intelligam's responce in to Chris79's persistence and arrogance on page 21 of this post was fantastic, well written and biblically accurate. (to which Chris had no replied whatsoever) How wonderful when a man uses the Word effectively as Paul asked Timothy to do, two thumps way UP!!!
2. Chris79: Dude, how about putting aside all the great emphasis you place on Leviticus 18th and all of the Laws which God gave to the Jewish 4000BC socierty and actually focus more on what Jesus and the apostles had to say about the topic. Of course the Torah is important, it's part of scripture, but you make it seem as if you're an expect in the law (pharisee) and therefore you're above everyone else who has posted here. Do not be deceived!
Also I got to say that the sentence that seems to identify you, almost your signature...........
"WHO IS BETTER VERSED THAN ME IN THE LAW?? BRING THEM, WHERE ARE THEY?? THERE IS NONE"
Is so arrogant and out of place that people here probably felt embarrassed to even reply to it. Where's the meekness? the poorness of spirit? Humbleness? What benefit is there in thinking you know the law forth and back like no other human if when it comes to living the basic lessons Jesus gave us in the sermon of the mount you appear to be a failure? Do not be deceived! Just something to think about, nothing personal.
1. I think Credo_Ut_intelligam's responce in to Chris79's persistence and arrogance on page 21 of this post was fantastic, well written and biblically accurate. (to which Chris had no replied whatsoever) How wonderful when a man uses the Word effectively as Paul asked Timothy to do, two thumps way UP!!!
2. Chris79: Dude, how about putting aside all the great emphasis you place on Leviticus 18th and all of the Laws which God gave to the Jewish 4000BC socierty and actually focus more on what Jesus and the apostles had to say about the topic. Of course the Torah is important, it's part of scripture, but you make it seem as if you're an expect in the law (pharisee) and therefore you're above everyone else who has posted here. Do not be deceived!
Also I got to say that the sentence that seems to identify you, almost your signature...........
"WHO IS BETTER VERSED THAN ME IN THE LAW?? BRING THEM, WHERE ARE THEY?? THERE IS NONE"
Is so arrogant and out of place that people here probably felt embarrassed to even reply to it. Where's the meekness? the poorness of spirit? Humbleness? What benefit is there in thinking you know the law forth and back like no other human if when it comes to living the basic lessons Jesus gave us in the sermon of the mount you appear to be a failure? Do not be deceived! Just something to think about, nothing personal.
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Chris79
Guest
IMOSS says : Its pretty much cut & dry premarital sex is actually marital. When you have sex, you are joined together
What you are really saying here is that Yahweh views sex as a covenant, correct?
Yes, I agree, Yahweh sees pre marital sex as a Covenant in his eyes. This is exactly what the Bible teaches, my arguement was never against that, however your statement which is true doesnt really help the folks who believe its also a sin.
So let me get this straight ...you sin by having pre marital sex with a loved one, but God looks at this sin and says AHHHAA its a Covenant, DONE DEAL LOL
So this Covenant is formed through sin. WOW now that is bizarre lol .........Covenant is formed in Yahweh's sight when 2 people sin ...that's a first.
Again, your statement is TRUE it SURELY is because thats exactly what the Torah teaches, this doesnt really help the pre marital = sin group.
What you are really saying here is that Yahweh views sex as a covenant, correct?
Yes, I agree, Yahweh sees pre marital sex as a Covenant in his eyes. This is exactly what the Bible teaches, my arguement was never against that, however your statement which is true doesnt really help the folks who believe its also a sin.
So let me get this straight ...you sin by having pre marital sex with a loved one, but God looks at this sin and says AHHHAA its a Covenant, DONE DEAL LOL
So this Covenant is formed through sin. WOW now that is bizarre lol .........Covenant is formed in Yahweh's sight when 2 people sin ...that's a first.
Again, your statement is TRUE it SURELY is because thats exactly what the Torah teaches, this doesnt really help the pre marital = sin group.
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Chris79
Guest
I KNOW IT BACK AND FORTH BECAUSE THAT IS ALL I USE = THE SCRIPTURE, NOT SILLY 21ST CENTURY OPINIONS. EVERYTHING I SAY COMES FROM 1 ULTIMATE SOURCE THAT IS THE ORIGINAL HOLY SCRIPTURES, UNCHANGED, NOT TAMPERED WITH, NOT MISTRANSLATED..........HENCE IF ORIGINAL HOLY SCRIPTURES AND THE TRUTHS IT POSSESS IS ALL I USE THEN NO MAN ALIVE CAN POSSIBLY RANK HIGHER THAN THIS. CAN YOU BE EQUAL?? THINK ABOUT THIS, I ALREADY ANSWERED IT.
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sportygirl
Guest
Ok Chris79 I have a question you say that two saints having pre-marital sex is ok, as long as they get married correct? So in that context according to this couple is married in the eyes of the Lord, and so they are in a monogomous relationship correct? Ok so I'm not gonna argue even though I don't completely agree...I'm just going to move on to my actualy question. So in today's scoiety you believe it is ok for a young couple lets say 15-17 to have pre-marital sex because they are in "love". Would you want your child sleeping with someone they think loves them and has told them they loved them, but in reality in the culture we live in today it was more of a sexual desire than real love, and after they have had sex, the couple breaks up and never see each other again. Since, (from what i can tell, correct me if im wrong) sex is what in a sense what bonds a relationship together, wouldn't it be better for your child to marry or at least wait a very long time before sleepign wtih someone they believe loves them....I guess my question is under what cirucmstances in a relationship is pre-marital sex ok? Like how long of a relationship, etc?
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Chris79
Guest
I read your page 24 post, from what I read you are doing pretty good in your Christian walk, more power to you, it is good to wait VERY GOOD.
However, if and when you do find the Love of your life, and you are both convinced from the Lord that its meant to be ....whether its 2 months or 6 months away from marriage, if you choose to have pre marital sex ...ANYONE WHO CONDEMS YOU FOR IT IS WRONG, and you cannot condem 2 people either. Yahweh never put timing on it and never did he call this a sin, as IMOSS said he views this as a covenant hence it cannot be a sin. At the same time, he is absolutely serious about it, so that means wait for the right one whether its up to marriage or before it it doesnt really matter, it all comes down to INTENTIONS, this makes God very personal.
I dont put timing on it neither does Yahweh, if you follow his word, your intentions will be the best and you will want to wait till marriage or even 2 months before marriage, in either case its good. If you are 17 or 15 in todays society its highly likely you just want to have sex just to have sex, very few that age know about commitment. Look back at the Biblical days girls married at 13.5 and boys at 14.5. I would not want my child to be sleeping at the age of 15 , but I'm making a distinction between someone my age 31 and a 15yr old. I have rejected sexual acts with women over and over again, I made it clear to Yahweh I refuse to get physically intimate unless I'm in Love, I am commited , it is confirmed in both of our hearts and is heading towards marriage <----this Yahweh would never condemn and he didnt in the Torah
If it is good for you to wait until marriage then wait
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Credo_ut_Intelligam
Guest
Where does the Bible teach this?
The Bible only refers to marriage as a covenant two times:
Ezekiel 16:8 “When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine.
Malachi 2:14 But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the LORD was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
Both of these verses refer to marriage as a covenant, but they don't specify sex (or pre-marital sex) as a covenant.
You need a whole word to defeat my argument? If you had any skill at all you would pick it apart with half a word.
But, if it's just one word, I don't see why you haven't shared it with me yet… You had enough time to make all these additional posts and forewarn me about your imminent sunrise… but you can't give me your one word rebuttal??
This is funny stuff… But while I'm waiting for you to finish with all this fluff and torch me with your one word I might as well try to strengthen my argument as a sort of pre-emptive damage control routine.
Consider Deuteronomy 22:13–21:
“If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, ‘I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,’ then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her; and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, “I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity.” And yet this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloak before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife. He may not divorce her all his days. But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst."
Note several things.
First, they had entered the marriage covenant prior to having sex. Thus, pre-marital sex is not marital. Sex isn't what constitutes the marriage.
This is also made clear in the Exodus 22:16–17 passage you appealed to earlier:
“If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins."
Notice that this pre-marital sex doesn't necessarily lead to marriage (I already demonstrated how it is not a good thing). The Law allows for them to not marry. The point is, either way, the seducer (or deceiver) must pay a penalty for his action. Why? (1) Because as the parallel passage (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) makes clear, he has violated her and (2) as Deuteronomy 22:13–21 makes clear, the wife was expected to be a virgin on her wedding night. But the seducer has nullified this possibility and, thus, any future marriage she has may be dissolved (and end in her death) or she may never get married at all.
(This also undercuts your claim that this passage permits two persons to have pre-marital sex if it results in marriage because, as we see from reading the very next verse, this pre-marital sex may not result in marriage. So you either have to admit that Exodus 22:16 does not support your argument (because of verse 17) OR you have to broaden your claim to say that even pre-marital sex which does not result in marriage is permissible (because of verse 17). Either way, you have to change your argument if you're going to rely on this passage.)
Second, the marriage was constituted on some other grounds, some prior grounds. The passage I quoted earlier, Ezekiel 16:8, indicates what this other/prior grounds is: "I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you..." The vow, not sex, is the grounds of the marriage covenant. This wasn't unique to Israel, from what I understand, but was also practiced in other ancient near eastern cultures. For example, the Laws of Eshnunna required a formal marriage contract (also cf. Nuzi texts and Hummurabi Code (128); AYBD vol. 4, 562).
Third, notice that the man expects his wife to be a virgin. If, as you say, pre-marital sex is condoned in Scripture what guy do you think is going to wait till marriage to have sex? Honestly, I think if you gave a survey to every man on the planet and asked him "If, hypothetically, sex was permissible prior to marriage, would you wait till marriage to have sex?" not a single man would choose to wait. The Deut. passage above indicates that being a virgin was the expected norm.
Fourth, notice that the accusation of the bride not being a virgin upon marriage will bring "a bad name upon a virgin of Israel" (if in fact she is a virgin). If she is not a virgin, then she still has a "bad name" brought upon her… worthy of death. Yet if pre-marital sex is okey-dokey, why would not being a virgin be such a big deal? Saying "Because it should lead to marriage" is not sufficient to explain the severe penalty (death), since if such pre-marital sex was permissible it undoubtedly occurred on a regular basis and, just like contemporary pre-marital sex, rarely actually resulted in marriage.
Finally, notice that the charge isn't made that "She told me she was a virgin, but I found out she wasn't" rather, it's just *assumed* that she was a virgin. There isn't mention of a special agreement made ahead of time. Rather, it is presented as a norm that parents marrying off their daughter would have proof of her virginity.
It should be clear as day that sex only having it's proper expression within the marriage covenant the constant presupposition of Scripture. So Hebrews 13:4, "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."
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juliet84
Guest
I KNOW IT BACK AND FORTH BECAUSE THAT IS ALL I USE = THE SCRIPTURE, NOT SILLY 21ST CENTURY OPINIONS. EVERYTHING I SAY COMES FROM 1 ULTIMATE SOURCE THAT IS THE ORIGINAL HOLY SCRIPTURES, UNCHANGED, NOT TAMPERED WITH, NOT MISTRANSLATED..........HENCE IF ORIGINAL HOLY SCRIPTURES AND THE TRUTHS IT POSSESS IS ALL I USE THEN NO MAN ALIVE CAN POSSIBLY RANK HIGHER THAN THIS. CAN YOU BE EQUAL?? THINK ABOUT THIS, I ALREADY ANSWERED IT.
We aren't here proclaiming silly 21rst century opinions, this forum is filled with bright people who are using the word of wisdom to defend their faith against heresies such as the one you're proclaiming. Of course our modern translations aren't perfect, like the original, but if God was against the use of translations, why would he ever command his people to go out and fill the corners of the earth with his Gospel? Or will you now say that He expected all humanity to learn Hebrew or Greek? Wasn't that the whole purpose of tongue speaking in the first century, international spreading of the word regardless of language barriers?
Stop being so dogmatic about you having the perfect, unchanged, translation and understand that God, in his infinite grace, will always, even through history's darkest hours , communticate his gratest truths to his people in a clear and efficient way, and the holiness of marriage is CERTAINLY one of them.
We aren't here proclaiming silly 21rst century opinions, this forum is filled with bright people who are using the word of wisdom to defend their faith against heresies such as the one you're proclaiming. Of course our modern translations aren't perfect, like the original, but if God was against the use of translations, why would he ever command his people to go out and fill the corners of the earth with his Gospel? Or will you now say that He expected all humanity to learn Hebrew or Greek? Wasn't that the whole purpose of tongue speaking in the first century, international spreading of the word regardless of language barriers?
Stop being so dogmatic about you having the perfect, unchanged, translation and understand that God, in his infinite grace, will always, even through history's darkest hours , communticate his gratest truths to his people in a clear and efficient way, and the holiness of marriage is CERTAINLY one of them.
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godsbluesman
Guest
Well...I just wanted to remind you of this: god made us attractive to one another-He put this in us and it is not wrong to look upon another-as long as your intentions are pure! You can look at someone with a pure heart and it isn't wong-as I said God put this in us.
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FRANZO
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paul1149
Guest
I'm 60 years old now, and I've experienced quite a bit and seen more, and in our sex-saturated culture seldom does a day go by where I don't reflect on the wisdom of God's prohibition on profane sex. Crimes of passion, crimes of lust, crimes of war; broken hearts, broken families, broken relationships, broken lives, broken bodies; a culture, a society, a nation in a downward spiral, first spiritually, then morally, finally existentially - all these are the fruits of sex outside of covenant relationship.
There are two ways to learn. First, by direct experience; second, by accepting teaching from those with more insight. Regarding the positive things in life, it's great to learn by the first method. Personal experience enriches us. But with the negative things, whenever possible you definitely want to learn by accepting instruction, because the other way is far too costly.
I was in a difficult situation once in this regard. I responded by burying my face particularly in the book of Proverbs, chaps 1-9. There is a ton of wisdom there and in the whole book, not only about avoiding immorality and its cruel consequences, but also on how to look past what your eyes see, to the root issues of character that successful relationships must be build on. It saved my skin.
But for the Christian the real issue at play is this: does serving God pay? Does God reward those who look to Him to supply their needs, by honoring Him and doing things His way? Is the grace of God through Christ sufficient in every situation? I chose to trust God in this matter, and I would do it a hundred times over (indeed, the first time is by far the hardest; once learned, the lesson is inculcated and we become strong where we were weak - which is why God allows tests). If I had done the "natural" thing, the thing our toxic dominant culture tells us to do, the relationship would have quickly fallen apart, and it would have been a personal disaster.
There are two ways to learn. First, by direct experience; second, by accepting teaching from those with more insight. Regarding the positive things in life, it's great to learn by the first method. Personal experience enriches us. But with the negative things, whenever possible you definitely want to learn by accepting instruction, because the other way is far too costly.
I was in a difficult situation once in this regard. I responded by burying my face particularly in the book of Proverbs, chaps 1-9. There is a ton of wisdom there and in the whole book, not only about avoiding immorality and its cruel consequences, but also on how to look past what your eyes see, to the root issues of character that successful relationships must be build on. It saved my skin.
But for the Christian the real issue at play is this: does serving God pay? Does God reward those who look to Him to supply their needs, by honoring Him and doing things His way? Is the grace of God through Christ sufficient in every situation? I chose to trust God in this matter, and I would do it a hundred times over (indeed, the first time is by far the hardest; once learned, the lesson is inculcated and we become strong where we were weak - which is why God allows tests). If I had done the "natural" thing, the thing our toxic dominant culture tells us to do, the relationship would have quickly fallen apart, and it would have been a personal disaster.
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DABEARS85
Guest
MORAL OF THE STORY: Don't have sex before you get married, or you are playing with fire, and are liable to get your heart or theirs broken in the process. Stick to the marriage route, and things will work out far better.
Chris79: Nice name, because my name is Chris too, but you are full of it, and I'm pretty positive you know it. Are you married? Why not? Have you ever gotten hurt, or hurt another girl, because you had sex and grown feelings and then break up? If so, then that alone proves sex before marriage is bad, even if you don't even look at scripture, which does NOT support your claims. I think most of the world have had sex before marriage, but that doesn't make it right.
Let me put it this way. The bible says nothing about sleeping with little children, like 5 years olds, either. That doesn't make it right, and it sure doesn't mean it isn't a sin. Try thinking a little harder about things next time before you try to justify your sins in a christian forum. There are people more knowledgeable than you on scripture, I guarantee that with 100% facts, so don't try to act like you are the bible scholar that is above everyone else either. You are not, and you are obviously misinterpreting basic scripture as well. Perhaps you should go to your church minister/preacher/leader/whatever and confront them with your radical viewpoints. If they believe you are wrong too, then perhaps you are. When no other christian that you discuss this with agrees with you, then you are probably the one who is wrong.
Chris79: Nice name, because my name is Chris too, but you are full of it, and I'm pretty positive you know it. Are you married? Why not? Have you ever gotten hurt, or hurt another girl, because you had sex and grown feelings and then break up? If so, then that alone proves sex before marriage is bad, even if you don't even look at scripture, which does NOT support your claims. I think most of the world have had sex before marriage, but that doesn't make it right.
Let me put it this way. The bible says nothing about sleeping with little children, like 5 years olds, either. That doesn't make it right, and it sure doesn't mean it isn't a sin. Try thinking a little harder about things next time before you try to justify your sins in a christian forum. There are people more knowledgeable than you on scripture, I guarantee that with 100% facts, so don't try to act like you are the bible scholar that is above everyone else either. You are not, and you are obviously misinterpreting basic scripture as well. Perhaps you should go to your church minister/preacher/leader/whatever and confront them with your radical viewpoints. If they believe you are wrong too, then perhaps you are. When no other christian that you discuss this with agrees with you, then you are probably the one who is wrong.
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Kelseybear
Guest
Trust me when I say don't do it before your married.
It hurts you in so many ways.The biggest is the guilt and 2nd is the knowing you
dissapointed God.
Yes,I know from doing and I only say this because when I asked God to
forgive me I made him 3 promises.
1.Never again
2.I will tell as many as I can to honor you by waiting
3.My purity ring that I got that has the word "FORGIVEN" thoughtful inscribed will stay on my finger for all to see till the day I marry the one he has planned for me to marry.
I know God would have forgiven me with out the promises but it made forgiveing myslef easier.
I pray that if you ever have or know someone who
has felt this pain that our Father in Heaven will heal your hurt and you will one day talk about it to help your brothers and sisters in Chirst.
It hurts you in so many ways.The biggest is the guilt and 2nd is the knowing you
dissapointed God.
Yes,I know from doing and I only say this because when I asked God to
forgive me I made him 3 promises.
1.Never again
2.I will tell as many as I can to honor you by waiting
3.My purity ring that I got that has the word "FORGIVEN" thoughtful inscribed will stay on my finger for all to see till the day I marry the one he has planned for me to marry.
I know God would have forgiven me with out the promises but it made forgiveing myslef easier.
I pray that if you ever have or know someone who
has felt this pain that our Father in Heaven will heal your hurt and you will one day talk about it to help your brothers and sisters in Chirst.
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marianaaa
Guest
wat I think is that our body is Holyspirit temple, so will I have sex before marry with whom I dont if will be my husband, cuz i can think about it, but do not be sure about! If i am in a relationship and I think thats serious relationship, but i cant be sure i will keep with this person FOREVER AND EVER...
sex before marry is wat God really doesnt form us
Bible is truly very clear!!
think about it!!
sorry, im not american, my english is not the best one.
sex before marry is wat God really doesnt form us
Bible is truly very clear!!
think about it!!
sorry, im not american, my english is not the best one.
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Joshua2417
Guest
What it comes down to is Choice. God gave us the right to choose our own way. the Bible so no sex before marriage and can go in and out of it an getting scripture to back stuff up but what it comes down is it is your choice to choose what path you take. if you need help. pray for guidance and you will be guided to do that right thing, but still its up to you to decide if it is the Godly thing to do or its just the Flesh talkin. an if you listen to what your worldy fresh side says then yeah it wrong but if you feel that its what the spirit is leading you to then go for it. it always comes down that God gives us the choice to make up are own minds and walk what path we want. if its goingto be a Godly pathy doing what God want, the Fleshly path full of " I thinkiing" or the devils path and just givin in to sin<s> left an right.
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PARADOX_1
Guest
All i know is its wrong..but i can't stop doing it..
i know i should jus not put myself in that situation but wen im with my gurl all my defenses jus drop..plus shes a freak.
i dnt even kno..i jus want to find my wife, or marry my chik nd not worry about it anymore..
i know i should jus not put myself in that situation but wen im with my gurl all my defenses jus drop..plus shes a freak.
i dnt even kno..i jus want to find my wife, or marry my chik nd not worry about it anymore..
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greatkraw
Guest
it is better to marry than to burn
just imagine what it will be like being tangled up with her the rest of your life
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PARADOX_1
Guest
im not gnna burn..but i aint got the doe to get married.
nd she koo, i wouldnt mind if ther were a few adjustments..like her not being a christian..
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