"She shall be saved through child bearing" (1 Tim 2:15) - meaning of this verse?

Lucy-Pevensie · Oct 17, 2022

I neither said nor insinuated any such thing.
Nor will I indulge your childish ignorance by reading the remainder of your post.

studentoftheword · Oct 17, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

That is your right ----

---you have a great day !

soberxp · Oct 17, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

You two may have been drinking fake wine.

Hazelelponi · Oct 17, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Honestly I've personally never read the Scripture in question any other way but a reference to the Divine Childbirth that resulted in our salvation.

To me, what better thought during a woman's time of hardship than Mary and her own sacrifice. That's beautiful. While pain in childbirth is the woman's curse, childbirth is also her salvation.

I've read the Scripture in that manner so deeply I've never even researched it or thought of it in any other way. So at least your not alone - although you've seemed to research it. I never felt any need.

Dirtman · Oct 17, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

Yes having babies is a good work. Particularly if they remain in the faith, raising up children in the faith.
Families are the design for human living.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Oct 17, 2022

Dirtman said:

Agreed. It's also evident this is a Christian Mother being spoken of i.e. one who already has faith, and so is already justified. That is clear from the "continue in faith" part. So the woman is already justified, and is further sanctified by child-bearing etc. In brief, it comes under that "persistence in doing good" part about which Rom 2:6-7 says the below.

Rom 2:6 "God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

God Bless.

studentoftheword · Oct 17, 2022

1 Timothy 2 ---is about instruction on Church worship ----

Paul is telling how women are to be in Worship ----so we go to these verses 9-12

9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.

(I say ----starting here we see Paul going back to Genesis 3 ) verses 13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Eve was deceived by Satan and she transgressed in the process ------her curse was to have pain in childbearing -------so the women will be saved in spite of her trial of the pain in childbearing which was her curse for her transgression ---- IF the Woman continues in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

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From John MacArthur on this scripture

https://www.gty.org/library/bibleqnas-library/QA0139/how-are-women-saved-through-childbearing

The following is an excerpt from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary on 1 Timothy 2.

But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (2:15)Preserved is from sozo, the common New Testament word for salvation. The word can also mean “to rescue,” “to preserve safe and unharmed,” “to heal,” “to set free,” or “to deliver from.” It appears a number of times in the New Testament without reference to spiritual salvation (cf.. Matt. 8:25; 9:21–22; 10:22; 24:22; 27:40, 42, 49; 2 Tim. 4:18).

Paul obviously does not intend to teach that women are eternally saved from the wages of sin through the bearing of children. That would contradict the New Testament’s teaching that salvation is by grace through faith alone (cf.. Rom. 3:19–20).

For women to reverse the blight that has befallen them in the Fall and fulfill their calling they need to raise a godly seed. To do that, they must continue in faith and love, where their salvation really rests. And they must continue in sanctity (Holiness) with self-restraint (the same word translated “discreetly” in verse 9). It is the very appearance, demeanor, and behavior demanded of believing women in the church that becomes their deliverance from any inferior status, as they live godly and raise godly children.

In this passage we see how God has perfectly balanced the roles of the sexes. Men are to be the leaders in the church and the family. Women are kept from any accusation of inferiority through the godly influence they have in the lives of their precious children. For the church to depart from this divine order is to perpetuate the disaster of the Fall
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A step by step 9 min video from John Piper on this Scripture ------very informative

https://www.desiringgod.org/labs/how-are-women-saved-through-childbearing

Jocund · Oct 17, 2022

studentoftheword said:

You are conflating the Greek words with your interpretation of the Greek words.

studentoftheword · Oct 18, 2022

Jocund said:

LOL you wish ----your just grasping at straws now -----now you can click on the word SAVED here in this scripture and you will see SOZO comes up ----so just maybe your the one conflating the words in your interpretation ------just saying

Instructions to Women
…14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. 15 Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Jocund · Oct 18, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Is your thesis here that words can only have a single possible meaning associated with them?

studentoftheword · Oct 18, 2022

Jocund said:

Well you can make it say whatever you want to --that is your right ---but the Greek word used in this scripture is Sozo ---and Sozo always refers to Salvation whic you can only get by and through accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour -----Childbearing cannot save anyone ----so if you want to believe that when a woman bears a child and she becomes saved and heaven bound then you can believe that ----but I certainly don't -----I need Jesus to be have SOZO -----

You seem to have a problem with proper research on a piece of Scripture ------you can't just make up your own interpretation -----you have to ask the Holy Spirit to help you in your research direction ----and you have to look up the words in the scripture you are researching so you do get the proper meaning of the word in that piece of Scripture -----we are in the New Testament with this scripture so you need to look up the Greek word ----Hebrew word in the |Old testament ---and it gives you the meaning of the word in that scripture -----

For instance -----flesh ----sometimes in scripture it means your flesh --skin ---sand sometimes it means your way of thinking --so you have to look up the word to see what it means in that scripture and In one of my posts I did that and it means Salvation ---which comes through Jesus not childbearing ------

So this is what it says ----so we know that this is talking about Salvation through Jesus not childbearing ----and it gives you the scripture your looking at-----which here is 1 Tim 2:15

Since salvation begins in this life (in deliverance from error and corrupt notions, in moral purity, in pardon of sin, and in the blessed peace of a soul reconciled to God)
(aorist of the time when they turned to Christ, — as a thing still future, 1 Timothy 2:15

Jocund · Oct 18, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Well you can make it say whatever you want to --that is your right ---but the Greek word used in this scripture is Sozo ---and Sozo always refers to Salvation whic you can only get by and through accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour -----Childbearing cannot save anyone ----so if you want to believe that when a woman bears a child and she becomes saved and heaven bound then you can believe that ----but I certainly don't -----I need Jesus to be have SOZO -----

You seem to have a problem with proper research on a piece of Scripture ------you can't just make up your own interpretation -----you have to ask the Holy Spirit to help you in your research direction ----and you have to look up the words in the scripture you are researching so you do get the proper meaning of the word in that piece of Scripture -----we are in the New Testament with this scripture so you need to look up the Greek word ----Hebrew word in the |Old testament ---and it gives you the meaning of the word in that scripture -----

For instance -----flesh ----sometimes in scripture it means your flesh --skin ---sand sometimes it means your way of thinking --so you have to look up the word to see what it means in that scripture and In one of my posts I did that and it means Salvation ---which comes through Jesus not childbearing ------

So this is what it says ----so we know that this is talking about Salvation through Jesus not childbearing ----and it gives you the scripture your looking at-----which here is 1 Tim 2:15

Since salvation begins in this life (in deliverance from error and corrupt notions, in moral purity, in pardon of sin, and in the blessed peace of a soul reconciled to God)
(aorist of the time when they turned to Christ, — as a thing still future, 1 Timothy 2:15

You didn't answer my question. I'll ask it again:

Is your thesis here that words can only have a single possible meaning associated with them?

Yes or no?

studentoftheword · Oct 18, 2022

Jocund said:

---Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't answer your question -----As far as I am concerned ----I think my answer explains it very well ----and just to let you know I am not beholden to answer any of your questions ----and this Question you ask is not a yes or no answer as far as I am concerned ---not when it comes to searching words in Scripture -in the Hebrew and Greek ----in your world a yes or no answer may well fit ---but not in my world -----so we see things different

Oh and by the way ---your haven't given me any reason to think differently about the scripture -------

all you say is
Is your thesis here that words can only have a single possible meaning associated with them?

So first off ---the word you use here THESIS ----is way off base ------and your slapping God in the face by using such a term ----in my view

As Scripture is not a Theses ----
Scripture is not as essay either ----
Scripture is not a Hypothetical proposition either ---

the·sis
(thē′sĭs)
n. pl. the·ses (-sēz)
1. A proposition that is maintained by argument.
2. A dissertation advancing an original point of view as a result of research, especially as a requirement for an academic degree.
3. A hypothetical proposition, especially one put forth without proof.

This is my answer from my above post -----and I did answer your plea and I did it my way ------you may not approve ---but I am not looking for your approval -----

you can make it say whatever you want to --that is your right ---but the Greek word used in this scripture is Sozo ---and Sozo always refers to Salvation which you can only get by and through accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour -----Childbearing cannot save anyone ----so if you want to believe that when a woman bears a child and she becomes saved and heaven bound then you can believe that ----but I certainly don't -----I need Jesus to be have SOZO -----

You seem to have a problem with proper research on a piece of Scripture ------you can't just make up your own interpretation -----you have to ask the Holy Spirit to help you in your research direction ----and you have to look up the words in the scripture you are researching so you do get the proper meaning of the word in that piece of Scripture -----we are in the New Testament with this scripture so you need to look up the Greek word ----Hebrew word in the |Old testament ---and it gives you the meaning of the word in that scripture -----

For instance -----flesh ----sometimes in scripture it means your flesh --skin ---sand sometimes it means your way of thinking --so you have to look up the word to see what it means in that scripture and In one of my posts I did that and it means Salvation ---which comes through Jesus not childbearing ------

So this is what it says ----so we know that this is talking about Salvation through Jesus not childbearing ----and it gives you the scripture your looking at-----which here is 1 Tim 2:15

Since salvation begins in this life (in deliverance from error and corrupt notions, in moral purity, in pardon of sin, and in the blessed peace of a soul reconciled to God)
(aorist of the time when they turned to Christ, — as a thing still future, 1 Timothy 2:15

JonathanBentley · Oct 18, 2022

Moms all go to heaven that's that

Jocund · Oct 18, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Great. You understand at the very least that "thesis" has different possible (mutually exclusive) meanings, so you have demonstrated that you at least understand in some capacity that words can have more than one possible meaning.

"Saved" has different possible connotations. The word "sōthēsetai" that appears in 1 Tim 2:15 is listed under Strong's 4982 (Sozo) under Strong's Concordance.

Please look at Jude 1:15 which also contains Strong's 4982.

"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not." - Jude 1:15 KJV

Now think about this.

1) The Bible does not contradict itself

2) If Strong's 4982 always means "eternal salvation" Jude 1:15 would contain a self-contradiction. Someone can't be eternally saved and then destroyed afterwards.

3) Therefore your position that Strong's 4982 necessarily means "eternal salvation" is necessarily incorrect.

Your logic is screwed up. I think if you reconsidered your position you will find it more tenable to take the position that your interpretation of sōthēsetai in 1 Tim 2:15 be considered more compellingly the case than the opposing interpretation.

I don't care much for your Olive Oyl arm flail posts. But I am interested in why you believe that your interpretation would be considered more compelling.

Do you actually have a logical reason for it? Or are you just following your instinct here?

If you are following your instinct (which I suspect you are) are you adopting that as your own personal perspective or proposing it as a collectively accepted perspective?

If you are proposing this as a collectively accepted perspective, why should someone follow your voiced instinct if it contradicts their own instinct?

You use disgusting lines like "slapping God in the face" why are you elevating yourself to the level of God? Why are you deifying yourself?

studentoftheword · Oct 18, 2022

Jocund said:

You said ------
But I am interested in why you believe that your interpretation would be considered more compelling.[/QUOTE]

I say
Show me a reason why the word Saved in the scripture is wrong when the Greek word Saved in this Scripture says it means this ----- -------
(aorist of the time when they turned to Christ, — as a thing still future, 1 Timothy 2:15

My understanding of the scripture is ---
aorist of the time when they turned to Christ, — as a thing still future, 1 Timothy 2:15

it means a time when they turn to Christ ----that means Salvation ------it is very plain to see what it means ------A kindergarten kid would understand that -----I'm sure

So this is your scripture ------you quote and it is not Jude 1:15 -----PLEASE NOTE:___just to clarify ----it is Jude 1:5
not 15

Jocund said:

This is what Strong's says about your scripture -----

So we know that it says that God is bringing to remembrance that it was He who Saved them from Bondage

Strong's
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save (i. e. rescue): with the genitive of the place, to bring safe forth from, Jude 1:5;

So that is what it say here ---but that is not what it says in 1 Tim 2:15 ---so your point is what -------that is why I said you need to look up the Greek or Hebrew in that particular scripture to see what the meaning is ------

This is my Quote from my previous post above

studentoftheword said:

You can have your opinion ---that is your right ----we definitely see things different ----

Your opinion is your ----and -----mine is taken from my research on the word used ------I will stick with the Holy Spirit directing me in my research and will go with that -----good luck with your way

Your Quote here

Jocund said:

No --I gave what the word Saved meant in Strong's for that piece of Scripture ----

how it is taken ----is up to the person -----

But we should always keep in mind ----we are to ----

if you can rightly divide the word of truth ---you can wrongly divide it -----so it is important to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you not man -----

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as how you feel about me or my views or my postings --that means nothing to me ----you can have any opinion of me you like ---you cannot offend me --I am way passed taking offence to any comments about me or my posts ---so go ahead and fire away if it make you feel better -----

Food for thought for us all -----

Pilgrimshope · Oct 18, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

i think the issue is this

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Females never were hiers beforehand but paul is saying in Christ a male or female have clothed themselves with Gods son the hier and become an hier with him . even the daughters of God have become hiers male and female no longer hold a distinction in the body of Christ

so you have this

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why then do we hold all women through eve to the old transgression and it’s curse ? Are they not new creations ? When a women is baptized are her sins not remitted ? Then why do we hold them beneath the curse for transgression ?

I think we should consider that Paul also was maturing from a former Pharisee to a Christian and sometimes he says “ I do not permit this “ other times he says “ the lord is saying this “

When he’s identifying the female as bekng under this curse for sin still

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; ( childbearing ) and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s pet of the old creation that fell
Into the curse of sin it’s not part of the old being forgotten and the new coming forth the new is this part

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s this in Christ

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

SomeDisciple · Oct 18, 2022

The interpretation I thought made the most sense was that the reference is to Eve-> she was saved in childbearing because the seed of the woman was Jesus... the savior. I don't believe this is referring to NT women.

*** not that NT women aren't saved by her childbearing- they obviously are; I mean they're not saved by their OWN childbearing; but they are obviously being saved by Jesus; provided they are his.

Jocund · Oct 18, 2022

studentoftheword said:

I say
Show me a reason why the word Saved in the scripture is wrong when the Greek word Saved in this Scripture says it means this ----- -------
(aorist of the time when they turned to Christ, — as a thing still future, 1 Timothy 2:15

it means a time when they turn to Christ ----that means Salvation ------it is very plain to see what it means ------A kindergarten kid would understand that -----I'm sure

1 Tim 2:15's "saved" is not aorist. Jude 1:5's is...

Jocund · Oct 18, 2022

SomeDisciple said:

I think there is room for good discussion here.

"Saved in childbirth" can mean:

1) Protection in the process of carrying and birthing children
2) Eternal Salvation via the birth of Christ
3) A double-entendre that uses both 1 and 2 at the same time

Interestingly, 2) can line up well with an RCC-type interpretation of Revelation where the woman in the wilderness gives birth to Christ.

What leads you to prefer 2?

"She shall be saved through child bearing" (1 Tim 2:15) - meaning of this verse?

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