Should Christians challenge supernatural claims.

[slave]

Not to mention, there are Scriptures we also need to cling to in regards to this subject:

*1 Corinthians 2:12-16
*1 John 4:1
*1 Timothy 4:1
*Col. 2:8
*Hebrews 13:8-9
*2 Peter 1:21
*1 Timothy 2:5
*John 16:13
*Leviticus 20:6 ....and more.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well if AT Robertson said these scriptures may be bogus, should they be removed from our Bibles. Just to be on the safe side. What else does Mr. AT Robertson think may be bogus in the Bible?

Seems like a very important issue, even more then fake miracles.

So Mark 16:16 is possibly bogus? What other parts of Mark does Mr. AT Robertson imply is bogus?

Some people will go to any length to push a false doctrine, even imply that the scriptures are not trustworthly!

This is why the better modern versions place the text in parentheses. There is also much doubt concerning John 7:53-8:11.

But none of this shakes my faith whatsoever. A reading of the above passage shows, IMO that the text really doesn't flow into that story, it appears to have been planted in there.

 

[preacher4truth]

Do not write something like post# 52 and then back pedal and say you "accept Mark 16:16 as scripture".

If you accept Mark 16:16 as scripture then there was no need for you to pop into this thread and make such a statement.

I grow tried of your labeling others as followers of long dead people. I have never even read anything by Campbell.

It would be more truthful to call you a "Robertsonite" since you seem to bring him up on many different subjects. But I won't stoop to your level.

One doesn't need to have read certain heretics actual readings, such as Campbell, to be a follower of their teachings. When a person teaches what he taught, then others believe that lie, follow that man without ever reading his works. You are highly influenced and mislead by Campbell, and are then rightly labelled as such.

As for me, I am what people call a Calvinist, yet I've read very little of John Calvin. You're going to be labelled somehow, everyone is to some extent.

 

[Enow]

So that explains why Greek scholar AT Robertson said (in regards to Mark 16:16) - So serious a sacramental doctrine would need stronger support anyhow than this disputed portion of Mark.

After he first said - "The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. Baptism is merely the picture of the new life not the means of securing it."

I believe Jesus was referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost which is the promise from the Father at the believer's salvation. As pointed out, that is why unbelief is why a person is not saved.

The fact that the Gentiles had received the promise of the Holy Ghost before water baptism in Acts 10th chapter has led me to believe that Jesus was talking about that kind of baptism of being born again of the Spirit and not water baptism.

 

[slave]

So that explains why Greek scholar AT Robertson said (in regards to Mark 16:16) - So serious a sacramental doctrine would need stronger support anyhow than this disputed portion of Mark.

After he first said - "The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. Baptism is merely the picture of the new life not the means of securing it."QUOTE=DJ2;3153257]

Do not write something like post# 52 and then back pedal and say you "accept Mark 16:16 as scripture".

If you accept Mark 16:16 as scripture then there was no need for you to pop into this thread and make such a statement.

I grow tried of your labeling others as followers of long dead people. I have never even read anything by Campbell.

It would be more truthful to call you a "Robertsonite" since you seem to bring him up on many different subjects. But I won't stoop to your level.

I didn't realize this was becoming a Scripture weeding out discussion.....don't forget to cross reference John 3:5. Smile.

 

[mailmandan]

I believe Jesus was referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost which is the promise from the Father at the believer's salvation. As pointed out, that is why unbelief is why a person is not saved.

The fact that the Gentiles had received the promise of the Holy Ghost before water baptism in Acts 10th chapter has led me to believe that Jesus was talking about that kind of baptism of being born again of the Spirit and not water baptism.

Either way, it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of water baptism. ALL believers are baptized by one Spirit into one body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[mailmandan]

I didn't realize this was becoming a Scripture weeding out discussion.....don't forget to cross reference John 3:5. Smile.

Be sure to cross reference John 3:5 with John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.

 

[mailmandan]

Has anyone witnessed these signs in Mark 16:17-18 today? How would you challenge those supernatural claims?

 

[Denadii]

Has anyone witnessed these signs in Mark 16:17-18 today? How would you challenge those supernatural claims?

In move corporate churches, these signs would be accidental The people of that church would be wandering around askng each other "What happened?

 

[RickyZ]

Has anyone witnessed these signs in Mark 16:17-18 today? How would you challenge those supernatural claims?

Mark 16:17-18King James Version (KJV)[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Yes, except for the serpent thing, and I've seen something that came awfully close.

 

[DJ2]

This is why the better modern versions place the text in parentheses. There is also much doubt concerning John 7:53-8:11.

But none of this shakes my faith whatsoever. A reading of the above passage shows, IMO that the text really doesn't flow into that story, it appears to have been planted in there.

Planted by who and for what reason?

 

[DJ2]

One doesn't need to have read certain heretics actual readings, such as Campbell, to be a follower of their teachings. When a person teaches what he taught, then others believe that lie, follow that man without ever reading his works. You are highly influenced and mislead by Campbell, and are then rightly labelled as such.

As for me, I am what people call a Calvinist, yet I've read very little of John Calvin. You're going to be labelled somehow, everyone is to some extent.

I disagree. When someone comes to a conclusion on their own it would not imply a following of another person who shared the same conclusion and certainly not when that person has no contact with the other.

Your beliefs being similar to the heretic John Calvin does not imply your being his follower. Your beliefs are your own and like all of us, you will be called to account for them. I know very little about Campbell but Calvin I have read about. I am sure you do not share his beliefs about torturing and burning people alive at the stake. Calvin was a cruel and evil man, history records both his heresy and the horrible fate of many who refused his beliefs. I would not be so quick to label myself to such a character.

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 16:17-18King James Version (KJV)[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Yes, except for the serpent thing, and I've seen something that came awfully close.

Casting out devils and speaking with new tongues is Biblical and has genuinely happened, yet at the same time, satan may grant power to one of his agents to simulate casting out devils or speaking in tongues from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. In regards to taking up serpents, there are certain churches that handle rattle snakes during church services and back in 2014, there was a Pastor of a small Pentecostal church in Kentucky who was bit by a rattle snake during such a church service and died. Laying hands on the sick in order to recover is certainly Biblical and has happened, yet there are also fake healers out there as well.

 

[Enow]

Has anyone witnessed these signs in Mark 16:17-18 today? How would you challenge those supernatural claims?

The believers are not to follow signs. It is just written that signs will follow them and since tongues as signs are for unbelievers, believers have no business seeking signs.

Mark 16:[SUP]17 [/SUP]And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[SUP]18 [/SUP]They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

In other words, if any one thinks they are serving God by picking up serpents or drinking poison to show signs to unbelievers so that they may believe, they are wrong. Jesus said it is a sin to test the Lord thy God in that manner.

Acts 28:1And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

Paul did not seek to have a viper fasten on his hand; it was an incident which God used to show as a sign to unbelievers. That is how we are to take Mark 16:17-18. Signs follow believers.... but believers are not to seek signs or test God to serve as a sign to unbelievers.

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Believers are the bride of Christ now. To seek after a sign is how one is committing spiritual fornication against the Bridegroom. They need to repent by returning to their first love, and chase no more after seducing spirits to receive and with His help, shun vain & profane babbling to pray normally so as to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayers.

 

[RickyZ]

Casting out devils and speaking with new tongues is Biblical and has genuinely happened, yet at the same time, satan may grant power to one of his agents to simulate casting out devils or speaking in tongues from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. In regards to taking up serpents, there are certain churches that handle rattle snakes during church services and back in 2014, there was a Pastor of a small Pentecostal church in Kentucky who was bit by a rattle snake during such a church service and died. Laying hands on the sick in order to recover is certainly Biblical and has happened, yet there are also fake healers out there as well.

You are right, pretty much anything of God is subject to satan falsifying it, like casting out and tongues. A lot of people believe however, that if satan is faking it, God must not offer the real thing.

I think the snake-handler churches are out there in la-la land. That falls under tempting God and I'm surprised more of them don't get bit and die. I believe the drinking poison and getting bit protections are intended for accidental occurrences, not blatant God-testing.

I was out trail running one day, meditating on God, when came around a corner and dang near stepped on a pretty big rattlesnake. The critter had me dead to rights and could have very easily bitten me, but instead it just stared at me. To go back and around would add nearly another mile so as I stood there I asked the snake "I don't suppose you'd let me step over you and be on my way". The snake responded with a simple two-shake of it's tail, in a perfect "nuh-uh' response. I went back and around. I always thought there was something protective going on there, I mean, how else can ya have a conversation with a snake outside of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Meggido]

You are right, pretty much anything of God is subject to satan falsifying it, like casting out and tongues. A lot of people believe however, that if satan is faking it, God must not offer the real thing.

I think the snake-handler churches are out there in la-la land. That falls under tempting God and I'm surprised more of them don't get bit and die. I believe the drinking poison and getting bit protections are intended for accidental occurrences, not blatant God-testing.

I was out trail running one day, meditating on God, when came around a corner and dang near stepped on a pretty big rattlesnake. The critter had me dead to rights and could have very easily bitten me, but instead it just stared at me. To go back and around would add nearly another mile so as I stood there I asked the snake "I don't suppose you'd let me step over you and be on my way". The snake responded with a simple two-shake of it's tail, in a perfect "nuh-uh' response. I went back and around. I always thought there was something protective going on there, I mean, how else can ya have a conversation with a snake outside of the Holy Spirit?

Luke 10.19-

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

This includes the use of a square headed shovel, walking stick, .357 magnum, there rick!

 

[DJ2]

Luke 10.19-

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

This includes the use of a square headed shovel, walking stick, .357 magnum, there rick!

That's a nice story.

Before labeling any claim of Satan or God, we must first determine if a supernatural event even happen. We are much to quick to accept an event as supernatural and simply call it of God or the devil. Not thinking is it just a lie or simple trick. This is why many outside the church mock Christianity. We run around giving credence to such bogus claims instead of calling them what they are, baseless claims..

 

[tourist]

I find life challenging enough without challenging supernatural claims.

 

[Meggido]

That's a nice story.

Before labeling any claim of Satan or God, we must first determine if a supernatural event even happen. We are much to quick to accept an event as supernatural and simply call it of God or the devil. Not thinking is it just a lie or simple trick. This is why many outside the church mock Christianity. We run around giving credence to such bogus claims instead of calling them what they are, baseless claims..

Are you implying Luke 10.19 is a just a nice story?

 

[RickyZ]

Luke 10.19-

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

This includes the use of a square headed shovel, walking stick, .357 magnum, there rick!

Mmmmm.... barbequed rattlesnake! Very tasty when done right!