sinless? or sinning less.

[michael56]

I'm glad to say that I share the same understanding to what you have written above.



This is where we diverge in understanding.

For you it's all about works of the law.

But I see in scripture that the commandments that Christians keep is to believe on Jesus, and to love one another, 1John 3:23.

Legalists say they know him but they refuse to keep his 2 commandments, thus they're a liar and the truth is not in them.

How do legalists reject Christ's 2 commandments (believe on Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23)?
Scripture tells us that we cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.
.

It is true that the more you look to the literal letter of commandments in order to justify your Christianity the further away you go from loving God and your neighbour. Jesus statement to the Pharisees perfectly illustrates this:

Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. Luke 11:42

The more you believe your eternity/right standing before God hinges on obedience to the literal letter the more you shut out God's love, mercy and compassion from your life. You do not need it, nor do you depend on it, it is you trying to attain Heaven by your own effort/what you do.That was the mistake most made under the old covenant, but King David didn't. He knew his eternity hinged on God's unfailing love for him, and God's unfailing love under the new covenant is seen by Christ dying for our sins. But as under the old covenant people ignored that unfailing love, so they do under the new covenant, rather-in reality depending on their own personal goodness under the law. As Jesus said:

Many after drinking the old wine don't want the new, for they say ''The old is better'' Luke5:39

 

[gotime]

I'm glad to say that I share the same understanding to what you have written above.



This is where we diverge in understanding.

For you it's all about works of the law.

But I see in scripture that the commandments that Christians keep is to believe on Jesus, and to love one another, 1John 3:23.

Legalists say they know him but they refuse to keep his 2 commandments, thus they're a liar and the truth is not in them.

How do legalists reject Christ's 2 commandments (believe on Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23)?
Scripture tells us that we cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.
Gal 5:4 confirms this by saying that those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace.
And remember also that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

Legalists preach righteousness by works of the law, which is unbelief in Jesus.
Even you, gotime, claim that most here on CC are in "unbelief" unless we keep the law perfectly.

Lovely to see we agree on some things

As to the last part you are wrong, it's not about works for me. It is precisely because I believe on Jesus that Loving others even happens.

Do you forget that loving one another is connected to the commandments? you can't separate them as Paul said,

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

As far as mixing grace with works, you know very well that faith produces works. You can't put the fruit in the same basket as those who work to be saved/legalists.

Forget about the law for a second.

Love does not kill,
Love does not steal,
Love does not bear false witness,
Love does not dishonor mother and father,
Love does not commit adultery,
Love does not covet those things it should not.
Love does not have other Gods before God,
Love does not take the name of the Lord in vain,
Love does not worship Idols,

Or do you thing love does kill, steal, commit adultery, etc?

If you believe that love does not do those things then you acknowledge that Love keeps/fulfills the law.

If you don't believe that love does not do those things then you make love sinful.

So which is it?

 

[skylove7]

Even the Pharisees of Jesus day did not profess to be sinless. When Jesus said

''Let him who is without sin cast the first stone'' they all walked away

Yes that is true! But was Jesus not talking about their past, ..up to that present day sins? These were obviously not saved, good hearted men. I do believe I will always be tempted to sin, but there's that little fine line between a temptation...and choosing to act upon it is a sin, but by praying hard for Gods help, it makes me not want to act on the temptation, and commit the sin. In my heart its not so much...the temptation that bothers me....I get this sad guilt feeling in my heart and I pray and say" Please God...help me because I know I am weak,..and you are strong! I am not sinless...but I'm never going to judge a man for trying to please Christ. There are far better souls than me in the world. I'd rather compliment a mans efforts for not sinning, than to decide if he can do it or not.

 

[michael56]

. In my heart its not so much...the temptation that bothers me....I get this sad guilt feeling in my heart and I pray and say" Please God...help me because I know I am weak,..and you are strong! I am not sinless...but I'm never going to judge a man for trying to please Christ. There are far better souls than me in the world. I'd rather compliment a mans efforts for not sinning, than to decide if he can do it or not.

Nothing could more prove the point you have been born again of the Holy Spirit than what you wrote in the above.

You may think there are many better souls than you in the world, but I would doubt there would be that many who are more humble. Degrees of goodness and badness cannot determine whether Christ remains in you or rejects you. Your sorrow when you fall short(as we all do) proves Christ lives in you

God Bless

 

[gotime]

Yes that is true! But was Jesus not talking about their past, ..up to that present day sins? These were obviously not saved, good hearted men. I do believe I will always be tempted to sin, but there's that little fine line between a temptation...and choosing to act upon it is a sin, but by praying hard for Gods help, it makes me not want to act on the temptation, and commit the sin. In my heart its not so much...the temptation that bothers me....I get this sad guilt feeling in my heart and I pray and say" Please God...help me because I know I am weak,..and you are strong! I am not sinless...but I'm never going to judge a man for trying to please Christ. There are far better souls than me in the world. I'd rather compliment a mans efforts for not sinning, than to decide if he can do it or not.

Lovely. you have hit the nail on the head.

We have wonderful promises for this:

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[gotime]

Over time by walking in Faith you will grow stronger and stronger in the Lord.

 

[kedge]

What are your thoughts on sinless perfection? Can a person become sinless in this life?

Not according to the Holy Scriptures, no escape from sin.


Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Job 14:1
Mortals, born of woman, are of few days and full of trouble.

 

[gotime]

Not according to the Holy Scriptures, no escape from sin.


Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Job 14:1
Mortals, born of woman, are of few days and full of trouble.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[skylove7]

Awww...thank you Michael! How very kind! In all honesty....it is just honesty. I just tell the truth.
I feel happier inside...let's say Bob at church said to me " Penny I didn't sin today!" I'd be very joyed for Bob, and proud. Yet I'd likely confess to Bob..."Well Bob I was craving a cigarette today since I quit long ago. Will you pray for me Bob?"
Thank you for that kindness Michael...but my heart will always love complimenting the better person. I rather enjoy being proud of others! I may need a christian friend someday to help my heart if I was sad. I shall never be jealous or unkind...only honest and proud of others. God Bless you

 

[skylove7]

Awww...thank you go time for your kind words. Lol...I can't quite remember what scriptures I need like you boys can...but I remember many biblical stories. Jesus says...'Keep studying Penny...keep reading" lol

 

[kedge]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

A person can correct their sinful ways but they can not escape from a sin that has been passed down from adam, it is a trait and unremovable, that is one interpretaton of the Bible.

 

[gotime]

Awww...thank you go time for your kind words. Lol...I can't quite remember what scriptures I need like you boys can...but I remember many biblical stories. Jesus says...'Keep studying Penny...keep reading" lol

Just keep trusting Jesus and He will get you there. you said you like the stories, here is one that gives me faith in Christ:

Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

So simply Jesus enters the temple and cleans out the bad stuff inside the temple and his right to do this is that fact that He will die and be resurrected.

Now notice this:

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

So If we are the temple of God then what according to the story in John 2 will Jesus do If we let Him in? Clean our temple and take all the bad stuff out.

Praise the Lord.

 

[haz]

Lovely to see we agree on some things

As to the last part you are wrong, it's not about works for me. It is precisely because I believe on Jesus that Loving others even happens.

Do you forget that loving one another is connected to the commandments? you can't separate them as Paul said,

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Like I said before, loving one another is consistent with Christ's commandment to Christians.
And love forgives 7x70, which is certainly needed in this flawed physical world we live in.

As far as mixing grace with works, you know very well that faith produces works.

No doubt you focus upon physical works, as your understanding on scripture seems always to be physical.

James 2 speaks of works that shows our faith, citing the example of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.
Now we all know that there are non believers who likewise feed the hungry and cloth the naked. So are we to assume that these non Christians are showing works of faith in spite of rejecting Christ?

What you miss is that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
Whilst both Christians and non-Christians help the physically needy, Christians do so spiritually as well. And it's these spiritual works that shows our faith.

Who are the hungry spoken of in James 2?
It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ, our spiritual food.
1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

And who are the naked in James 2?
It's the lost, the spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness.
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
And in believing on Jesus we let our light (Christ in us) shine, preaching the gospel to the lost (the spiritually hungry and naked).
Matt 5:14-16
You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing on Jesus) and glorify your Father in heaven.

Forget about the law for a second.
Love does not kill,
Love does not steal,
Love does not bear false witness,
Love does not dishonor mother and father,
Love does not commit adultery,
Love does not covet those things it should not.
Love does not have other Gods before God,
Love does not take the name of the Lord in vain,
Love does not worship Idols,
Or do you thing love does kill, steal, commit adultery, etc?
If you believe that love does not do those things then you acknowledge that Love keeps/fulfills the law.
If you don't believe that love does not do those things then you make love sinful.
So which is it?

I see it very differently to the scenario you present.

Whilst we agree that love does no ill to another, and that Christians will be a different stages of growth, I do not accuse weaker brethren of "unbelief" should they slip up. Nor do I accuse them of "being in the flesh" and thinking "the cross is not sufficient" because they don't keep the Sabbath.

In fact the Sabbath is not even listed in Christ's 2 commandments.

And Col 2:16 claims that we do not judge anyone about the Sabbath.

The physical is not perfect. What you seem to forget is that the physical is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

God is spiritual.
Christians are spiritual (1Cor 2:15, 1Cor 14:37, Gal 6:1)
The law is spiritual (Rom 7:14).

You wrongly look to physical perfection, or being perfected by the flesh. You obsess over the physical Sabbath, accusing anyone who fails perfect physical obedience of being in unbelief.

But Christians keep the spiritual law. And being spiritual we look forward to God's (spiritual) Sabbath, Heb 4. We keep the spiritual law.

 

[skylove7]

Lol...guess I will go back to sleep for a few hours haha. Thank you....each and everyone at CC.
Have a beautiful day,...be strong in this evil world, and when you enjoy the beauty that is free all around you. The sky, the trees, the love! Remember God made beauty for you! Because He loves you!
Good Day!

 

[gotime]

Like I said before, loving one another is consistent with Christ's commandment to Christians.
And love forgives 7x70, which is certainly needed in this flawed physical world we live in.



No doubt you focus upon physical works, as your understanding on scripture seems always to be physical.

James 2 speaks of works that shows our faith, citing the example of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.
Now we all know that there are non believers who likewise feed the hungry and cloth the naked. So are we to assume that these non Christians are showing works of faith in spite of rejecting Christ?

What you miss is that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
Whilst both Christians and non-Christians help the physically needy, Christians do so spiritually as well. And it's these spiritual works that shows our faith.

Who are the hungry spoken of in James 2?
It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ, our spiritual food.
1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food,and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

And who are the naked in James 2?
It's the lost, the spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness.
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
And in believing on Jesus we let our light (Christ in us) shine, preaching the gospel to the lost (the spiritually hungry and naked).
Matt 5:14-16
You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing on Jesus)and glorify your Father in heaven.



I see it very differently to the scenario you present.

Whilst we agree that love does no ill to another, and that Christians will be a different stages of growth, I do not accuse weaker brethren of "unbelief" should they slip up. Nor do I accuse them of "being in the flesh" and thinking "the cross is not sufficient" because they don't keep the Sabbath.

In fact the Sabbath is not even listed in Christ's 2 commandments.

And Col 2:16 claims that we do not judge anyone about the Sabbath.

The physical is not perfect. What you seem to forget is that the physical is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

God is spiritual.
Christians are spiritual (1Cor 2:15, 1Cor 14:37, Gal 6:1)
The law is spiritual (Rom 7:14).

You wrongly look to physical perfection, or being perfected by the flesh. You obsess over the physical Sabbath, accusing anyone who fails perfect physical obedience of being in unbelief.

But Christians keep the spiritual law. And being spiritual we look forward to God's (spiritual) Sabbath, Heb 4. We keep the spiritual law.

most of what you write here I can agree with.

And I think you have miss understood me or my position. I do not accuse or put in unbelief because people slip up I say that of people who teach that sin can not be overcome, that is unbelief.

you said "In fact the Sabbath is not even listed in Christ's 2 commandments"

But neither is do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. do you then suggest we can do that because its not directly stated? no of course not and I have showed from Paul that love one another includes the commandments. So this really does not help your point at all.

as for Col 2:16 you missus that text and it is easy to prove. the next text says:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Notice the words "to come". There are Sabbaths that indeed pointed to Christ like the Sacrificial Sabbaths eg Passover Sabbath etc. But of the 7th day Sabbath it says:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It does not point Forward but rather is a memorial of Creation and the First Sabbath when God rested from creating the world. So lets put that one to rest.

I don't look to physical perfection at all, I look to Jesus for complete salvation.

 

[gotime]

So as I asked before,

Does the love that God gives us kill? Steal? take Gods name in vain? does it dishonor parents? does it commit adultery? what about bear false witness? does it put things before God?

It either does or it dose not.

We know the old nature does all these things, does the new nature, the new creature in Christ do these things also?

You or no.

 

[michael56]

I do not believe anyone who insists all must adhere to a Saturday Sabbath can have accepted the fullness of the Holy Spirit as is available to them. They are stuck in the letter.
Please note the word insists has been emphasised

 

[gotime]

ok let me make it easier:

Does the love of God in you Commit adultery?

 

[firstaider_2010]

Hi
All human beings are sinners - we have all fallen short of the glory of God ( Romans 3 :23) but we are saved by the all atoning blood of our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ. He died for us.
best wishes
firstaider

 

[haz]

I say that of people who teach that sin can not be overcome, that is unbelief.

But the error in the doctrine you follow is that you refuse to see that any Christian has overcome sin unless they perfectly obey the law.

You call unclean what God has cleansed.

You continue to judge Christians as sinners because they fail to physically obey the law perfectly.
But Christians are not even under the law, hence they cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1).

Whilst our physical body is not perfect, Christians reckon it to be already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
We abide in Christ, and in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

So as a Christian is a new spiritual creation and our identity is now in Christ, (and there is no sin in Christ, 1John 3:5), then why do you continue to say that there is sin in Christians, and thus in Christ?

A Christian's old physical man is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Therefore we don't judge any Christian by whether they obey the law perfectly. Instead we see Christ in each other and ourselves.

And if we see Christ in Christians, then we see Christ's righteousness/holiness/sinlessness in each other.
That's why scripture says below.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God (1John 5:1) doth not commit sin; for his seed (Christ) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Pet 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

When we believe on Jesus we have overcome.
1John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

But you claim that we have not overcome until we obey the law perfectly. That is error.

you said "In fact the Sabbath is not even listed in Christ's 2 commandments"

But neither is do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. do you then suggest we can do that because its not directly stated? no of course not and I have showed from Paul that love one another includes the commandments. So this really does not help your point at all.

as for Col 2:16 you missus that text and it is easy to prove. the next text says:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Notice the words "to come".

I did notice the words "to come". Recall how I told you that Christians look forward to God's spiritual rest, Heb 4.
As I keep saying, we do not judge the flawed physical that is still around us. It's already dead because of sin, Rom 8:10.

BTW, I already answered your point before about taking God's name in vain. Christians don't do this as believing on Jesus is not believing on Jesus, but instead it's believing on God, John 12:44.